4 Years of being stagnant

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

so if I hit where I SEE you, I actually hit you.

This is not true for the default hit detection, and therefore for mine as well. The default operates by the client checking everyone around them for hits. Not by "sending" a hit directly to someone from the attacker. This results in you swinging and potentially missing someone, despite visibly seeing the opposite.

Originally Posted by Rufus

With serverside hit detection have the ability to hit their player directly, which includes when the player freezes and jumps around.

Hitting what you see (although this isn't accurate, the amount of time it takes you to upload the data to the server is still relevant) isn't being disputed. The fact is that the jumpy movement is still possible and still provides an advantage because it's unpredictable by the opponent, and it can be generated at will.

That is hardly the same. It is way easier to abuse your connection with clientside hit detection. In events such as CTF you can't really just "deal" with people abusing lag with a clientside hit detection, because not every lagger has choppy movements yet is placed at an advantage. With serverside hit detection laggers are evident because your opposition does not need to be walking towards your sword in order to take a hit. I don't see how the staff members can deal with abuse that responds differently to different people, nor should they really be expected to judge it.

I'm pretty sure you've been around for quite a while. If so, you know that these very things had to be dealt with in the past. Why is it suddenly so different now? Anyway, I'm not after opinions at this point anyway, so if you're trying to convince me that doing it clientside is a bad choice, you might as well save yourself the time.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Hitting what you see (although this isn't accurate, the amount of time it takes you to upload the data to the server is still relevant) isn't being disputed. The fact is that the jumpy movement is still possible and still provides an advantage because it's unpredictable by the opponent, and it can be generated at will.

If hitting the player is unrelated, I don't see how jumpy movement is related to anything we've been talking about at all.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I'm pretty sure you've been around for quite a while. If so, you know that these very things had to be dealt with in the past. Why is it suddenly so different now? Anyway, I'm not after opinions at this point anyway, so if you're trying to convince me that doing it clientside is a bad choice, you might as well save yourself the time.

Even if the server went to default hit detection, the serverside hit detection was provided as the basis for fairness in many of the game mechanics we have on the server at current. An example of this would be a large portion of the events, which are going to feel a reduction in quality and overall fun like they already have. Classic boasts the quality of events, and there are going to be many instances where the server will be relying upon them to retain players. If you took Classic's events, changed them to work with the default hit detection and placed them onto a server that has the default hit detection, I can almost guarantee the responses would not be as positive as they are with what we have. In addition to this the actual players of Classic over the last 3-4 years are used to the hit detection. That is why it is different now, because I'm not living in the past.

I don't see where you thought I was offering you an opinion either, because you're the one that responded to a post I made.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Rufus

If hitting the player is unrelated

Where did this come from?

Even if the server went to default hit detection, the serverside hit detection was provided as the basis for fairness in many of the game mechanics we have on the server at current.

Where is the basis for this supposed fact? It seems more like an assumption to me.

An example of this would be a large portion of the events, which are going to feel a reduction in quality and overall fun like they already have.

This implies that you think clientside hit detection is already in place, but:

If you took Classic's events, changed them to work with the default hit detection and placed them onto a server that has the default hit detection, I can almost guarantee the responses would not be as positive as they are with what we have.

This contradicts that. Clarification? Considering you prefer it all to be serverside, this doesn't make sense, because it isn't serverside right now.

In addition to this the actual players of Classic over the last 3-4 years are used to the hit detection.

It's funny, considering there was supposedly a poll that showed the majority wanted it changed not too long ago. Obviously being accustomed to the serverside method wasn't very important, if at all. I'm betting a lot remember the default even MORE, and want it MORE. I know that's the case for myself and several others that I've directly spoken to.

That is why it is different now, because I'm not living in the past.

Great, you go live in the "present" on another server. That's not Classic. This is also more like an insult than anything else, and it has the potential to take us off topic.

I don't see where you thought I was offering you an opinion either, because you're the one that responded to a post I made.

It was assumed that the purpose of you even going into detail about why you think (yes, like it or not, a lot of these things are opinions, not facts) clientside detection is bad was to prevent me from trying to get it put in place. I don't see a point if that isn't the case.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not the one who even decides if server or clientside detection is used. I'm simply providing a perfect replacement for what currently exists, so that it functions as it was intended, rather than this horribly inaccurate mess that exists now.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

That's not Classic.

And a custom HD and movement system is?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Where did this come from?

Given that I quoted what you said when I replied, I'll assume where it "came from" was obvious and you're looking for clarity. There are very few instances where "moving in larger increments and to a potentially random location" can provide "difficulty" for other players. The relevant one here is hit detection, which is the current dispute.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Where is the basis for this supposed fact? It seems more like an assumption to me.

What's your point? Assumptions are beliefs and I neither stated it was a fact, nor tried to make it appear as one. My claim was based upon Stefan suggesting that I used a serverside hit detection on Graal2001 when discussing the default hit detection with him quite recently -- A suggestion from a somewhat credible source. It is my understanding that Stefan also made that same suggestion to Storm, but you should already be aware of this since you've parroted it quite a bit.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Objection! This implies that you think clientside hit detection is already in place. This contradicts that. Clarification? Considering you prefer it all to be serverside, this doesn't make sense, because it isn't serverside right now.

Might wanna slow down there ace attorney, jumping on a simple slip up in time lapse that is easily interpreted in the statement I made is far too weak. To correct and reiterate my point however:

An example of this would be a large portion of the events, which are going to feel a reduction in quality and overall fun like they already have. Classic boasts the quality of events, and there are going to be many instances where the server will be relying upon them to retain players. If you took Classic's events, changed them to work with the default hit detection and placed them onto a server that has the default hit detection, I can almost guarantee the responses would not be as positive as they are with what we had.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

It's funny, considering there was supposedly a poll that showed the majority wanted it changed not too long ago. Obviously being accustomed to the serverside method wasn't very important, if at all.

The validity of the poll results and the nature in which people vote has already been addressed several times in this thread alone.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I'm betting a lot remember the default even MORE, and want it MORE. I know that's the case for myself and several others that I've directly spoken to.

How often do you play Classic? Additionally, nobody ever mentioned bringing back the default hit detection as a viable alternative.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Great, you go live in the "present" on another server. That's not Classic. This is also more like an insult than anything else, and it has the potential to take us off topic.

Something is telling me you didn't really think that one through, but again it has already been addressed.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

It was assumed that the purpose of you even going into detail about why you think (yes, like it or not, a lot of these things are opinions, not facts) clientside detection is bad was to prevent me from trying to get it put in place. I don't see a point if that isn't the case.

To be fair I wasn't aware that you are important enough to provide a case for, nor did I think you actually did anything for the server. Then again I'm still not convinced, but I do know Master Storm reads this thread on a regular basis. Although he may provide nothing himself, he still ultimately decides what goes on the server.

[xnervNATx]

Originally Posted by Crono

And a custom HD and movement system is?

yes it is!!!!!

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crono

And a custom HD and movement system is?

When it functions no differently than what you experienced before the NPC server? Yes. That's the point.

Originally Posted by Rufus

There are very few instances where "moving in larger increments and to a potentially random location" can provide "difficulty" for other players. The relevant one here is hit detection, which is the current dispute.

So you care nothing about the comparison between the flaws of the two systems? These flaws are completely unrelated to the topic of the validity of the two? I guess that would be irrelevant to someone who isn't interested in discussing them, and is so clearly biased toward a serverside-only system.

nor tried to make it appear as one

Your wording gave no indication of doubt, possibility of being wrong, or an indication that it was an opinion. The only conclusion I can come to is that you think it is a fact. I don't know how that isn't trying to make it appear as one.

My claim was based upon Stefan suggesting that I used a serverside hit detection on Graal2001 when discussing the default hit detection with him quite recently -- A suggestion from a somewhat credible source. It is my understanding that Stefan also made that same suggestion to Storm, but you should already be aware of this since you've parroted it quite a bit.

He did. That doesn't make the "claim" any more factual, however. I think you're assuming that everything is currently only designed to function properly with serverside hit detection, which isn't necessarily the case.

Might wanna slow down there ace attorney, jumping on a simple slip up in time lapse that is easily interpreted in the statement I made is far too weak.

Weak? As difficult as it may be for you to believe, there was no negative aspect to the question. It simply didn't make sense, and, obviously, I wanted you to explain.
Let me ask you something, are you completely aware that there are two hit detections to refer to right now? One of which is obviously already up, and the serverside hit detection from before. This is making your wording seem a bit odd.

The validity of the poll results and the nature in which people vote has already been addressed several times in this thread alone.

Considering I have no interest in going back to read it, why don't you give me your version of it? I'm sure it'll be colored by your views.

How often do you play Classic? Additionally, nobody ever mentioned bringing back the default hit detection as a viable alternative.

I played a lot in the past. There's been no reason to actually PLAY for quite a while though, so I couldn't give you an exact answer, but this should give you a pretty good idea.
There you go again saying things definitively (as in, fact) when you simply can't know. I've already said that I've talked to a few people directly and they DO agree that a replication of the default hit detection would be preferable. This was only a FEW people.

Something is telling me you didn't really think that one through, but again it has already been addressed.

Then don't bring it up, especially as an insult.

he still ultimately decides what goes on the server.

I don't think you're very aware of the staff situation at all.

[Crimson2005]

Ok, the previous HD has now been added back to events. What does that tell you? The current HD caused major problems in events and it's now been removed from events. The current HD is not good enough, yet it still remains in general on the overworld? Why exactly? It's been deemed unfit and a pain in the arse for events but somehow remains on the overworld. I don't get it. It's not really good enough. Whatever though, carry on living in blissful ignorance, Thor and the rest. There is absolutely no convincing you what is good for the server as long as you can convince yourself, right?

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crimson2005

Ok, the previous HD has now been added back to events.

I can't say for sure if this is true or not, but I don't recall seeing anything in the various scripts to indicate it.

[Crimson2005]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I can't say for sure if this is true or not, but I don't recall seeing anything in the various scripts to indicate it.

Apparently DC applied this change last night after he experienced the annoyances it causes as it was being tested.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crimson2005

Apparently DC applied this change last night after he experienced the annoyances it causes as it was being tested.

That's certainly possible.

Oh, and for the record, Thor hasn't opposed the idea of changing the hit detection at all. (At least not to me.) I think that's a pretty good indication that he knows it's bad.

[Crimson2005]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

That's certainly possible.

Oh, and for the record, Thor hasn't opposed the idea of changing the hit detection at all. (At least not to me.) I think that's a pretty good indication that he knows it's bad.

Changing, yes. Absolutely. Adjusting? It's not a case of adjusting really.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crimson2005

Adjusting? It's not a case of adjusting really.

I'm not sure where this came from. Adjustment wasn't even mentioned. Am I missing something?

[Crono]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

When it functions no differently than what you experienced before the NPC server? Yes. That's the point.

LOL? Do you even play Classic let alone Graal? The current HD is nothing like the default one that, say, UN has. I play both so I'd actually know.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crono

LOL? Do you even play Classic let alone Graal? The current HD is nothing like the default one that, say, UN has. I play both so I'd actually know.

Did you read the thread? I'm not referring to what currently exists. I know the current one sucks, as well as all the others, in terms of similarity to pre-NPC server functionality.

[DarkCloud_PK]

i havent even switched it yet wow

[Crono]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Did you read the thread? I'm not referring to what currently exists. I know the current one sucks, as well as all the others, in terms of similarity to pre-NPC server functionality.

Yes I did. If the all of the past scripted hit detections have sucked and haven't been like the default hit detection, how is yours is going to be any different?

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crono

If the all of the past scripted hit detections have sucked and haven't been like the default hit detection, how is yours is going to be any different?

As I said, it's identical to the default. None of the previous ones have done this.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

As I said, it's identical to the default. None of the previous ones have done this.

How is it identical?

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crono

How is it identical?

I've also explained this. Please go back and read, as I don't want to type it again.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I've also explained this. Please go back and read, as I don't want to type it again.

I've read the thread, but I haven't seen any mention of how your hit detection is "identical" to the default hit detection. If you can script a hit detection I'm sure you have the ability to copy and paste or even quote what you've apparently explained.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crono

I've read the thread, but I haven't seen any mention of how your hit detection is "identical" to the default hit detection. If you can script a hit detection I'm sure you have the ability to copy and paste or even quote what you've apparently explained.

It makes no difference to me whether or not you believe me. If you're truly interested in the information, you'll go back and look for it on your own.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

It makes no difference to me whether or not you believe me. If you're truly interested in the information, you'll go back and look for it on your own.

Haha, that's what I thought.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crono

Haha, that's what I thought.

That's very typical of someone who's throwing emotion and ego into their posts. You're clearly not interested in the information that you claim to want.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

That's very typical of someone who's throwing emotion and ego into their posts. You're clearly not interested in the information that you claim to want.

Originally Posted by Crono

How is it identical?

Originally Posted by Crono

I've read the thread, but I haven't seen any mention of how your hit detection is "identical" to the default hit detection. If you can script a hit detection I'm sure you have the ability to copy and paste or even quote what you've apparently explained.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crono

You're assuming that you've read it properly and the information doesn't exist. Clearly you haven't, because you're wrong. I'm not doing the work for you.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Do you not think that the current hit detection was intended to be like that?

No, not really otherwise they would of scripted a HD geared towards default and this HD is far from it other than the fact of more fairer hits.

@Kat: Good to hear that somewhat of an attempt is currently being made.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

You're assuming that you've read it properly and the information doesn't exist. Clearly you haven't, because you're wrong. I'm not doing the work for you.

If I'm apparently wrong then why can't you support your claim? I have read through your posts and you have not explained it at all. Stop being a child and either quote what you've apparently explained or stop 'bsing' all together.

[MysticX2X]

Apparently all event levels are set back to serverside hd.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Crono

why can't you support your claim?

I can, but I told you why I'm not.

I have read through your posts and you have not explained it at all.

Then perhaps your original question didn't even ask what you're wanting answered. I'm not going to assume what you want answered, so be specific.

Stop being a child and either quote what you've apparently explained or stop 'bsing' all together.

If you want to think of this as childish, that's your choice. I'm not an advocate of doing things for people that they can do themselves, especially with such ease. Read above for a possible solution that doesn't involve repetitive information.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

If you want to think of this as childish, that's your choice. I'm not an advocate of doing things for people that they can do themselves, especially with such ease. Read above for a possible solution that doesn't involve repetitive information.

What do you expect him to do? Magically read through the thread again and know what you're talking about? If you're trying to make a point, it wouldn't hurt to quote yourself to provide the specifics of the point through all the many posts you have in this thread.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

What do you expect him to do? Magically read through the thread again and know what you're talking about?

I expect him to truly have read it and understood what was read. I can only make an assumption that that was done.

If you're trying to make a point, it wouldn't hurt to quote yourself to provide the specifics of the point through all the many posts you have in this thread.

I'm not disagreeing that it would make it easier, but based on what was asked and what's available, he can answer his own question. If it isn't able to answer his question, then there's obviously miscommunication of what he wants to know, specifically.

[BlackSolider]

I'm going to attempt to throw my thoughts in here about Classic:

Back in 2006 or so, Classic was a thriving server. We'd have 30-40 people online during weekends and occasionally some afternoons. GCs would host a good mix of events at a constant rate. Sparring was fun and for the most part, fair. The server was still in the US at this time and the HD was acceptable to most. Guild wars would occur occasionally. Things were pretty good, despite there being little to no content. Luckily, the time gap in between events was so small that it wasn't a major problem.

Starting around 2008 things began to change on Classic. Slowly, the "oldbie" players either stopped playing as much or moved on altogether. This was pretty normal and had been happening for years. However, the influx of new players was shriveling up dramatically. Any actual new players to graal would look at era and see guns. Then they would look at classic, only to find that all we did was host events (where they had no chance of winning and would always be targeted.) Now, which server would they chose to play? Classic just wasn't drawing in fresh blood, and it was also losing old blood at the same time. Not a good combination.

In an effort to save the server, GCs started to resort to desperate measures. Rather than hosting a good mix of events, they would host only eight or so events that the majority of the current population really liked. Even then, only three or so of the events would get hosted half the time. CTF and sumo were the biggies. As the year progressed, the playercount seemed to slowly dwindle. The GCs pressed harder to "chain host" events like they used to, and thus they started things like "CTF Madness". Temporary fun to mask the true flaws of classic. Sounds like a drug.

Now it's 2009. The playercount is doing much better now than at the start of the year + december + late november. But things are not well. GCs still find it hard to "chain host" events. Thus the gap between events is large, and there is no content to fill the void. The dev team is (hopefully) hard at work to solve this problem. It doesn't help when everything they do is criticized to no end. Perhaps the community expects too much at once. Perhaps they have a right to demand progress. These last four years, the GC team has put the server on its shoulders. Its about time the dev team helped out too. Now I'm not going to sit here and bash the devers because I realize its tough to satisfy a constantly-*****ing community. Everything the dev team released has come under fire. Theres not much motivation when everything you do just isn't good enough.

But lets be honest here. Classic needs content for in between events. Classic needs a use for gelats and tickets. Classic needs to dump the useless GC prizes and get some useful items. Classic needs a way for guilds to actually "win" a war, and get a reward out of it. Classic needs a lot of things. Perhaps most importantly, Classic needs the community to shut up and start working together. Stop bashing the dev team's works unless you can do better. Stop leaving CTF games when you requested it. Stop lagging on purpose just to win events. Stop the hatred towards certain players. But most importantly, stop reading this post. Rofl. I haven't looked how long it is yet, but its probably excessively long. Seriously though: "Classic" doesn't mean everything has to stay the same or revert to its past. Classic means we have an older look to our tileset, but the server can evolve to fit the community within that context. I've spent far too much time on classic to see it go to hell. All I know is that Classic needs to get better, and each and every classician can help in their own way. As I've believed for a while now: find your role, then know your roll, then do your roll.


In summary:
Back in 06-07 the playercount was high enough that GCs could constantly host events; thus the lack of content wasn't a problem.
In 08-09 the playercount has decreased, and thus GCs can't constantly host events anymore. Thus the lack of content is apparent, and it is hampering the server.
Classic needs to come together to fix the server. Stop *****ing at devs. Stop *****ing at GCs and leaving events. Classic needs to get better, and everyone has a roll in that process.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Stop bashing the dev team's works unless you can do better.

We don't need to do it better in order to want better. Yes, this is all about volunteer, but as long as they have a staff position they assume responsibility. We shouldn't have to do better, not as long as they want to claim their position of staff.

[jorollychu]

Hard to learn to do better when they dont give you a chance to if you dont know how to dev.

[BlackSolider]

@ Dusty.

But if you can't do better, then how can you tell someone how to do their job? Yes, the dev team hasn't lived up to expectations. But instead of downgrading the work they actually do put out, why not thank them for it? The quantity of their work needs improvement. I can't judge the quality because I don't pretend to know how make complex scripts. (I could script a guild door or a chair back on GS1 years ago. Anything else is beyond me.) But if you can't script a better quest than Sardons/Gnome/Graal Castle, you are in no position to tell them to "make a better quest".

[MysticX2X]

@Gladius: You're just echoing what everybody just said. Of course tickets/gralats need a purpose. Gralats have none so far due to the mass amounts people have (Hurray for Black gelat quest). Tickets are somewhat not in mass amounts so yes they need a purpose. I suggested to Night monthly auctions for like statues and stuff. I forgot what he said and i think an item auction is currently trying to be made.

Guilds are forever dead on Classic. Nobody from other servers wants to play on Serverside HD and all the Classicians either found something better to do, or just got too old for the game. Not to mention they forever screwed over MoD Fort.

Agreed with the stop *****ing at devs statement. It sounds completely selfish to yell at them because they're not catering to your tastes. I have seen several people appreciate what the devs have done on various things. Just because they aren't catering to you, Dusty, doesn't give you the right to call them out and keep *****ing about how they're making a server die more regardless of the fact that the server would be dying far worse without any updates/changes.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

But if you can't do better, then how can you tell someone how to do their job? Yes, the dev team hasn't lived up to expectations. But instead of downgrading the work they actually do put out, why not thank them for it? The quantity of their work needs improvement. I can't judge the quality because I don't pretend to know how make complex scripts. (I could script a guild door or a chair back on GS1 years ago. Anything else is beyond me.) But if you can't script a better quest than Sardons/Gnome/Graal Castle, you are in no position to tell them to "make a better quest".

The most amusing thing about this is, Dusty can do better.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Guilds are forever dead on Classic.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Nobody from other servers wants to play on Serverside HD and all the Classicians either found something better to do, or just got too old for the game. Not to mention they forever screwed over MoD Fort.

So that makes guilds "forever dead" on Classic?

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Agreed with the stop *****ing at devs statement. It sounds completely selfish to yell at them because they're not catering to your tastes. I have seen several people appreciate what the devs have done on various things. Just because they aren't catering to you, Dusty, doesn't give you the right to call them out and keep *****ing about how they're making a server die more regardless of the fact that the server would be dying far worse without any updates/changes.

Ironic really.

[BlackSolider]

If dusty can do better, why isn't he doing better work then?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

If dusty can do better, why isn't he doing better work then?

That might be because of the terrible staff team