4 Years of being stagnant

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by soulwazza

The manager of the server should be driving the change needed.

Everyone please laugh at this. You know you want to. ...and it's completely justified.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Anyways, why don't they just script a HD geared towards the default HD

If the system NPCs weren't the biggest collection of random additions all calling each other back and forth a few hundred times for each minor thing you could possibly want to do, you'd have this wish already. I've duplicated the default, with all the positives and negatives that come with it. This is, as I understand it, what the majority want, and with good reason. The only reason it isn't implemented yet is because I have no desire to spend the time it takes to sift through the ridiculous mess of system NPCs that have no organization whatsoever. It's not surprising that things don't get done.

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

To me, serverside is the most secure

because lag didn't play such a major role

I wouldn't really consider lag "security", but I guess I can see how it might be viewed that way. If someone is intentionally making themselves lag to get an advantage, it can still be accomplished with serverside hit detection, although not in the same way.

Now if it looks like a hit, you're wrong because your faster connection hasn't been refreshed with the new client's information and coordinates; they have been two steps ahead the whole time.

This is essentially how it was before NPC servers existed. Did you feel the same about it then?

[DustyPorViva]

People like to feel that the game they are playing is responsive. Clientside HD provides just that -- when you see a player and you hit them, they are hurt. It responds(though this reflects the script itself).

Serverside HD is quite the opposite. Instead you must hit where the server knows the player is instead of where you see. That is counter-intuitive to what a game should be trying to accomplish. Responsiveness is very important to good controls and presentation.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

People like to feel that the game they are playing is responsive. Clientside HD provides just that -- when you see a player and you hit them, they are hurt. It responds(though this reflects the script itself).

We do not get this with the current clientside hit detection. Why is that?

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I wouldn't really consider lag "security", but I guess I can see how it might be viewed that way. If someone is intentionally making themselves lag to get an advantage, it can still be accomplished with serverside hit detection, although not in the same way.

Woops, I was rewording a paragraph, two sentences became one and I forgot to proof read. That wasn't supposed to be in my post at all.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

This is essentially how it was before NPC servers existed. Did you feel the same about it then?

The old system worked pretty much the opposite way, or atleast it did to me. They've created a system to cater to the laggiest player.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

We do not get this with the current clientside hit detection. Why is that?

Like I said, reflects the script itself. Good clientside HD accomplishes the feeling of responsiveness.

Thor apparently has the numbers needed to replicate the default HD, why he didn't use it is beyond me.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Anyways, why don't they just script a HD geared towards the default HD with the movement as well? I'm not sure how much that process would be strayed from the amount of time it took to convert to Clientside HD.

Do you not think that the current hit detection was intended to be like that?

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

People like to feel that the game they are playing is responsive. Clientside HD provides just that -- when you see a player and you hit them, they are hurt. It responds(though this reflects the script itself).

Serverside HD is quite the opposite. Instead you must hit where the server knows the player is instead of where you see. That is counter-intuitive to what a game should be trying to accomplish. Responsiveness is very important to good controls and presentation.

With our serverside hit detection you seen players when you hit them, and they seen you hit them in return. The player did not require to be walking towards you in order for them to get hit, which they do in default hit detection unless your pings, region and UDP are matched well. Lag did not provide an unfair advantage and it couldn't be as abused as it is with clientside hit detection. There was the odd duff hit, but it was never a case of hitting where the server seen the player in order to get a hit, which would be just as bad as hitting invisible laggers on any clientside hit detection anyway.

In this regard, I don't see how clientside hit detection provides good responsiveness or presentation when compared to serverside at all.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Lag did not provide an unfair advantage and it couldn't be as abused as it is with clientside hit detection.

All systems can be abused. It's still perfectly possible for someone to throttle their connection to where they're moving erratically, even if it's not substantial. This would affect serverside hit detection. It's still a potential advantage, and abuse.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

All systems can be abused. It's still perfectly possible for someone to throttle their connection to where they're moving erratically, even if it's not substantial. It's still a potential advantage, and abuse.

In sparring and in PKing this did not provide an advantage. In events such as CTF this was dealt with by the Game Coordinators.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Rufus

In sparring and in PKing this did not provide an advantage.

I would find someone moving in larger increments and to a potentially random location (granted, within limited range) difficult to deal with, and as a result, it would be a disadvantage to me. I don't see how this would be any different for anyone else. Ultimately, the point is that serverside isn't perfect either.

In events such as CTF this was dealt with by the Game Coordinators.

Just as any issues from using clientside hit detection will be dealt with by appropriate staff members. I'm not saying one is better than the other (hit detection methods), but clientside is what I know a lot of people want.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Rufus

In this regard, I don't see how clientside hit detection provides good responsiveness or presentation when compared to serverside at all.

Because clientside is well... clientside. It's all calculated on what is going on on your side, so if I hit where I SEE you, I actually hit you. This does not happen with serverside if there is lag because there is a delay between what's going on on your side, and what's going on on the server, then there's the delay between me and the server as well. Many times in my experience with the serverside HD on Classic I had to predict my opponents moves and hit ahead rather than being able to hit them.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I would find someone moving in larger increments and to a potentially random location (granted, within limited range) difficult to deal with, and as a result, it would be a disadvantage to me. I don't see how this would be any different for anyone else.

With serverside hit detection have the ability to hit their player directly, which includes when the player freezes and jumps around. With clientside hit detection you are required to hit a lot of steps ahead in order for them to receive a hit and outside of sparring it is neither predictable nor appropriate.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Just as any issues from using clientside hit detection will be dealt with by appropriate staff members. I'm not saying one is better than the other (hit detection methods), but clientside is what I know a lot of people want.

That is hardly the same. It is way easier to abuse your connection with clientside hit detection. In events such as CTF you can't really just "deal" with people abusing lag with a clientside hit detection, because not every lagger has choppy movements yet is placed at an advantage. With serverside hit detection laggers are evident because your opposition does not need to be walking towards your sword in order to take a hit. I don't see how the staff members can deal with abuse that responds differently to different people, nor should they really be expected to judge it.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Because clientside is well... clientside. It's all calculated on what is going on on your side, so if I hit where I SEE you, I actually hit you. This does not happen with serverside if there is lag because there is a delay between what's going on on your side, and what's going on on the server, then there's the delay between me and the server as well. Many times in my experience with the serverside HD on Classic I had to predict my opponents moves and hit ahead rather than being able to hit them.

When I hit a player on serverside there were very few instances where they did not see the hit on their side as well. On clientside hit detection there is the same issue, but aesthetically I'd probably say it was even worse because you're not hitting the player on either screens if they lag. Scripted hit detection is always going to have a greater delay than the hard coded default (which I assume is what most players are looking for when they campaign for clientside hit detection) and this includes clientside as well. Triggeractions seem to appear earlier in the data than player movement. On your screen you can turn and swing the sword, which on your screen is the turning first, and then the trigger to send the sword data to the server. The serverside hit detection on Classic was originally working out where the player was slashing at using player x/y/dir on serverside only. It was then changed so that the position/diretion was recorded on the client and then sent to the server, so that the server uses the data that was specified.

I think you need to go and spar with default hit detection, because you need to predict your opponents move every single time in nearly every single spar.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

so if I hit where I SEE you, I actually hit you.

This is not true for the default hit detection, and therefore for mine as well. The default operates by the client checking everyone around them for hits. Not by "sending" a hit directly to someone from the attacker. This results in you swinging and potentially missing someone, despite visibly seeing the opposite.

Originally Posted by Rufus

With serverside hit detection have the ability to hit their player directly, which includes when the player freezes and jumps around.

Hitting what you see (although this isn't accurate, the amount of time it takes you to upload the data to the server is still relevant) isn't being disputed. The fact is that the jumpy movement is still possible and still provides an advantage because it's unpredictable by the opponent, and it can be generated at will.

That is hardly the same. It is way easier to abuse your connection with clientside hit detection. In events such as CTF you can't really just "deal" with people abusing lag with a clientside hit detection, because not every lagger has choppy movements yet is placed at an advantage. With serverside hit detection laggers are evident because your opposition does not need to be walking towards your sword in order to take a hit. I don't see how the staff members can deal with abuse that responds differently to different people, nor should they really be expected to judge it.

I'm pretty sure you've been around for quite a while. If so, you know that these very things had to be dealt with in the past. Why is it suddenly so different now? Anyway, I'm not after opinions at this point anyway, so if you're trying to convince me that doing it clientside is a bad choice, you might as well save yourself the time.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Hitting what you see (although this isn't accurate, the amount of time it takes you to upload the data to the server is still relevant) isn't being disputed. The fact is that the jumpy movement is still possible and still provides an advantage because it's unpredictable by the opponent, and it can be generated at will.

If hitting the player is unrelated, I don't see how jumpy movement is related to anything we've been talking about at all.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I'm pretty sure you've been around for quite a while. If so, you know that these very things had to be dealt with in the past. Why is it suddenly so different now? Anyway, I'm not after opinions at this point anyway, so if you're trying to convince me that doing it clientside is a bad choice, you might as well save yourself the time.

Even if the server went to default hit detection, the serverside hit detection was provided as the basis for fairness in many of the game mechanics we have on the server at current. An example of this would be a large portion of the events, which are going to feel a reduction in quality and overall fun like they already have. Classic boasts the quality of events, and there are going to be many instances where the server will be relying upon them to retain players. If you took Classic's events, changed them to work with the default hit detection and placed them onto a server that has the default hit detection, I can almost guarantee the responses would not be as positive as they are with what we have. In addition to this the actual players of Classic over the last 3-4 years are used to the hit detection. That is why it is different now, because I'm not living in the past.

I don't see where you thought I was offering you an opinion either, because you're the one that responded to a post I made.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Rufus

If hitting the player is unrelated

Where did this come from?

Even if the server went to default hit detection, the serverside hit detection was provided as the basis for fairness in many of the game mechanics we have on the server at current.

Where is the basis for this supposed fact? It seems more like an assumption to me.

An example of this would be a large portion of the events, which are going to feel a reduction in quality and overall fun like they already have.

This implies that you think clientside hit detection is already in place, but:

If you took Classic's events, changed them to work with the default hit detection and placed them onto a server that has the default hit detection, I can almost guarantee the responses would not be as positive as they are with what we have.

This contradicts that. Clarification? Considering you prefer it all to be serverside, this doesn't make sense, because it isn't serverside right now.

In addition to this the actual players of Classic over the last 3-4 years are used to the hit detection.

It's funny, considering there was supposedly a poll that showed the majority wanted it changed not too long ago. Obviously being accustomed to the serverside method wasn't very important, if at all. I'm betting a lot remember the default even MORE, and want it MORE. I know that's the case for myself and several others that I've directly spoken to.

That is why it is different now, because I'm not living in the past.

Great, you go live in the "present" on another server. That's not Classic. This is also more like an insult than anything else, and it has the potential to take us off topic.

I don't see where you thought I was offering you an opinion either, because you're the one that responded to a post I made.

It was assumed that the purpose of you even going into detail about why you think (yes, like it or not, a lot of these things are opinions, not facts) clientside detection is bad was to prevent me from trying to get it put in place. I don't see a point if that isn't the case.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not the one who even decides if server or clientside detection is used. I'm simply providing a perfect replacement for what currently exists, so that it functions as it was intended, rather than this horribly inaccurate mess that exists now.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

That's not Classic.

And a custom HD and movement system is?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Where did this come from?

Given that I quoted what you said when I replied, I'll assume where it "came from" was obvious and you're looking for clarity. There are very few instances where "moving in larger increments and to a potentially random location" can provide "difficulty" for other players. The relevant one here is hit detection, which is the current dispute.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Where is the basis for this supposed fact? It seems more like an assumption to me.

What's your point? Assumptions are beliefs and I neither stated it was a fact, nor tried to make it appear as one. My claim was based upon Stefan suggesting that I used a serverside hit detection on Graal2001 when discussing the default hit detection with him quite recently -- A suggestion from a somewhat credible source. It is my understanding that Stefan also made that same suggestion to Storm, but you should already be aware of this since you've parroted it quite a bit.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Objection! This implies that you think clientside hit detection is already in place. This contradicts that. Clarification? Considering you prefer it all to be serverside, this doesn't make sense, because it isn't serverside right now.

Might wanna slow down there ace attorney, jumping on a simple slip up in time lapse that is easily interpreted in the statement I made is far too weak. To correct and reiterate my point however:

An example of this would be a large portion of the events, which are going to feel a reduction in quality and overall fun like they already have. Classic boasts the quality of events, and there are going to be many instances where the server will be relying upon them to retain players. If you took Classic's events, changed them to work with the default hit detection and placed them onto a server that has the default hit detection, I can almost guarantee the responses would not be as positive as they are with what we had.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

It's funny, considering there was supposedly a poll that showed the majority wanted it changed not too long ago. Obviously being accustomed to the serverside method wasn't very important, if at all.

The validity of the poll results and the nature in which people vote has already been addressed several times in this thread alone.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I'm betting a lot remember the default even MORE, and want it MORE. I know that's the case for myself and several others that I've directly spoken to.

How often do you play Classic? Additionally, nobody ever mentioned bringing back the default hit detection as a viable alternative.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

Great, you go live in the "present" on another server. That's not Classic. This is also more like an insult than anything else, and it has the potential to take us off topic.

Something is telling me you didn't really think that one through, but again it has already been addressed.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

It was assumed that the purpose of you even going into detail about why you think (yes, like it or not, a lot of these things are opinions, not facts) clientside detection is bad was to prevent me from trying to get it put in place. I don't see a point if that isn't the case.

To be fair I wasn't aware that you are important enough to provide a case for, nor did I think you actually did anything for the server. Then again I'm still not convinced, but I do know Master Storm reads this thread on a regular basis. Although he may provide nothing himself, he still ultimately decides what goes on the server.