The problem with ignoring "unintentional" laggers.

[Heroin]

graal is not a modern game, its over 12 years old, it worked on computers that have the same power as pocket calculators nowadays and it worked on connections that had less quality than ****ing bamboo phones.. if anyone is to blame for this, then its cyberjoueurs and their ****ty servers, their ****ty engine and all the stupid decisions they made to completely ruin the potential of this game, but hey! it's fun to see a bunch of rabid dogs fighting on a sinking ship

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Heroin

graal is not a modern game, its over 12 years old, it worked on computers that have the same power as pocket calculators nowadays and it worked on connections that had less quality than ****ing bamboo phones.. if anyone is to blame for this, then its cyberjoueurs and their ****ty servers, their ****ty engine and all the stupid decisions they made to completely ruin the potential of this game, but hey! it's fun to see a bunch of rabid dogs fighting on a sinking ship

How is someone with a 2000ms ping their problem? Take your CJ rage somewhere that it matters, please.

[Deeek]

No one here has yet to explain the difference between "unintentional" lagging. Stop scapegoating people with poor connections.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Deeek

No one here has yet to explain the difference between "unintentional" lagging. Stop scapegoating people with poor connections.

What? No one is explaining the difference because it is irrelevant. If you want to know the difference between sparring someone with even a decent connection and a lagger, get on UN and spar Chakrah.

[Cloven]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

You're not considering other options, such as serverside hit detection.

Produce a quality method for doing this, test it, take a preference poll. If the poll substantially agrees with you then I'd have real reason to consider it. Otherwise I don't see how putting the cart before the horse is a practical option at this time.

[Deeek]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

What? No one is explaining the difference because it is irrelevant.

Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Deeek

Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?

Does it matter, though? Lag is lag is lag. The advantage of lag, whether it's intentional or not, is there. People do intentionally lag themselves, but it doesn't matter regardless. All laggers should be treated the same specifically because we can't really prove who is just abusing it and who is not.

[Deeek]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

People do intentionally lag themselves, but it doesn't matter regardless.

All laggers should be treated the same specifically because we can't really prove who is just abusing it and who is not.

Right, because lag abusers don't exist - it's just a really silly gimmick to scapegoat players with poor connections because you people lack the required patience to deal with them (as I said before).

I've also sparred Chakrah, by the way. I'm not about to point fingers at him though because I can't beat him.

[Door]

Originally Posted by Deeek

Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...93#post1569793

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Deeek

Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?

Oh, I missed this last part. Are you aware of how this stuff works in Graal? I find it quite arrogant of you to call the people who complain scapegoats when I am getting the very fine feeling that you're not aware of anything that is being discussed here.

[Chakrah]

i log on with high ping and log off with high ping
and even when im not at my computer i have high ping.
yeah its so not real...

[Deeek]

Originally Posted by Door

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...93#post1569793

So? Doesn't make him a "lag abuser". He's just admitting his obvious amusement over the abundance of immaturity rampant on this server. If I said the same thing that wouldn't make me a "lag abuser", would it?

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Oh, I missed this last part. Are you aware of how this stuff works in Graal? I find it quite arrogant of you to call the people who complain scapegoats when I am getting the very fine feeling that you're not aware of anything that is being discussed here.

Does this statement also make you equally arrogant for refusing to adequately prove anything you've said in this thread?

Ugh. Hint: There's a big difference between poor connections and emulation. I could emulate lag, but then I'm not really lagging am I?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Deeek

So? Doesn't make him a "lag abuser". He's just admitting his obvious amusement over the abundance of immaturity rampant on this server. If I said the same thing that wouldn't make me a "lag abuser", would it?

Does this statement also make you equally arrogant for refusing to adequately prove anything you've said in this thread?

Ugh. Hint: There's a big difference between poor connections and emulation. I could emulate lag, but then I'm not really lagging am I?

What?

[Door]

Originally Posted by Deeek

So? Doesn't make him a "lag abuser". He's just admitting his obvious amusement over the abundance of immaturity rampant on this server. If I said the same thing that wouldn't make me a "lag abuser", would it?

Does this statement also make you equally arrogant for refusing to adequately prove anything you've said in this thread?

Ugh. Hint: There's a big difference between poor connections and emulation. I could emulate lag, but then I'm not really lagging am I?

Sorry, let me clarify since you seem to have serious issues with selective reading. This is the part I was directing you to (although I can see how you might be tempted to look at the pretty picture and ignore those silly word things above it).

Originally Posted by Door

I don't think that the intention behind the cheating should affect how it is handled/whether it is handled at all. This is kind of an extreme comparison, but I think it gets my point across: When someone is hurting people irl and is deemed both sane and guilty, he/she is kept away from the public, usually in prison. When a mentally ill person is hurting others and cannot help what he/she is doing, that person is also kept away from the public. Is it fair to the mentally ill person? No. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.

Does that help?

[coreys]

Originally Posted by Door

Funny coming from someone who lamed castle wars so hardcore so that US could get a cheap win, ruining the fun for everyone else. >=O

In all seriousness, though, it's perfectly reasonable to bar laggers from playing events and the like, we do it on N-Pulse. However, we do it more or less at the ETs discretion, which is the way it should be done.

But they should be allowed to spar just fine. If someone has a problem with it, just don't spar them.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by coreys

However, we do it more or less at the ETs discretion, which is the way it should be done.

An ET's discretion usually means one of two things:

1. Eh, he's my friend so I'll let it slide.
2. I hate this lagger ***** (kicks cbk1994)

Not the way it should be done.

[LordSquirt]

I don't see what the big problem is.

Lagging in spars has always been a problem. There's not really a need for this to change. You just have to learn how you can beat lag, and if you can't try and try again.

btw: whose this Chakrah guy? Is he some new player or what. I've seen him on UN recently, but never heard of him when I played.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by LordSquirt

I don't see what the big problem is.

Lagging in spars has always been a problem.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Of course I am, and I'm only talking about events/sparring. Serverside hit detection got a bad name because Classic got it wrong, but I'd bet it's preferable to clientside detection if done correctly.

Yeah let's go from weeding out 3-4 players from our competitive events to shafting everyone not in the USA. Classic didn't "get it wrong", serverside HD and Graal's default gameplay style doesn't mix.

[tempandrew]

Originally Posted by Door

I don't think that the intention behind the cheating should affect how it is handled/whether it is handled at all. This is kind of an extreme comparison, but I think it gets my point across: When someone is hurting people irl and is deemed both sane and guilty, he/she is kept away from the public, usually in prison. When a mentally ill person is hurting others and cannot help what he/she is doing, that person is also kept away from the public. Is it fair to the mentally ill person? No. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.[/CENTER]

We should totally start jailing people irl who spread disease unintentionally because they get sick and come in contact with someone else.
THROW 'EM IN THE BRIG, THOSE BASTARDS KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!


Look, this whole discussion is ridiculous. You can't compare cheating to unintentional lagging, it's one of the most outlandish statements I've heard on a serious graal discussion in a long time, and that's saying something. Chakrah paid money to play this game. Blobz did too. So did Torrent. So did Aarian. So did I. So did Rufus. So did Door. It might be annoying to spar against him, or play events against him, but too bad. Don't spar him. Kick him from events if it's really a joint agreement that his lag is too much at the moment and it's severely holding up the event. Putting a lag cap is one of the most ridiculous and unfair things I've heard. What a stupid idea. Grow up and stop complaining about his lag. He can't help it.

And guess what? Some players actually move faster than others in sparring because they have faster computers with a faster CPU. Let's ban them from spars. They have an unintentional edge over other players in spars. This is cheating.

Honestly, do you people actually read what you're typing, because you sound like *****s.

[Door]

Originally Posted by coreys

Funny coming from someone who lamed castle wars so hardcore so that US could get a cheap win, ruining the fun for everyone else. >=O

Yeah, and I responded to your complaint like any fair player would:

[4/10/2010 9:08:10 PM] Corey: It became pointless to play after you started laming
[4/10/2010 9:08:20 PM] Corey: lost it's fun
[4/10/2010 9:08:21 PM] Jennie: they recently moved the REAL doorblocker place where you had to get staff to move the person (in the water)
[4/10/2010 9:08:57 PM] Jennie: ok
[4/10/2010 9:08:59 PM] Jennie: Im sorry
[4/10/2010 9:09:09 PM] Jennie: I won't block there anymore

Originally Posted by tempandrew

We should totally start jailing people irl who spread disease unintentionally because they get sick and come in contact with someone else.

THROW 'EM IN THE BRIG, THOSE BASTARDS KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!

...does the word "quarantine" ring a bell?

It doesn't matter why someone is causing damage or hurting other people or being a public nuisance. What matters is that it has to be stopped, and this is true both online and irl. Sorry unintentional laggers, I feel bad that you can't help it, but you make up less than 3% of the playerbase at any given time, and you're ruining the game for potentially 97% of the players (although based on Chakrah's screencap and video, it's become clear that while his lag may be unintentional, his use of that lag to ruin the game for others is more than intentional).

[Chakrah]

Originally Posted by Door

(although based on Chakrah's screencap and video, it's become clear that while his lag may be unintentional, his use of that lag to ruin the game for others is more than intentional).

this is where i'm going to settle this.

i made that video to show you what exactly i have to do to spar with my handicap. in NO way whatsoever, did i make this video to gloat that im abusing my lag to win.

Ruining the game for others using lag? No.

Harassing players, and flaming them? Yes.

This whole thread deserves about 100 boxes of tissues because all you're doing is ****ing crying.

[Door]

Originally Posted by Chakrah

this is where i'm going to settle this.

i made that video to show you what exactly i have to do to spar with my handicap. in NO way whatsoever, did i make this video to gloat that im abusing my lag to win.

Ruining the game for others using lag? No.

Harassing players, and flaming them? Yes.

This whole thread deserves about 100 boxes of tissues because all you're doing is ****ing crying.

Your attitude toward complaints is horrendous, Chakrah. You're only proving my point further by acting like such a jerk about your lag. You've also just stated that making other players miserable is a personal goal of yours. I don't see what would stop you from using your lag fulfill this goal. Even if you don't abuse your lag now (and believing that would take a huge stretch of the imagination after all the evidence I--and you--have put forth in this thread), there is nothing stopping you from abusing it in a moment of anger or bitterness, then continuing to act like you are doing nothing wrong.

You are probably one of the worst laggers I've ever seen--and I'm not talking about the extent of lagging you do. You're just a huge jerk about it.

[Chakrah]

If someone said you were manipulating something that you clearly had no control over, and let's say you heard this about 50 times a day everyday, maybe more.
I'm sure you'd end up being a little on the edge of madness too.

[tempandrew]

Originally Posted by Door

Your attitude toward complaints is horrendous, Chakrah. You're only proving my point further by acting like such a jerk about your lag. You've also just stated that making other players miserable is a personal goal of yours. I don't see what would stop you from using your lag fulfill this goal. Even if you don't abuse your lag now (and believing that would take a huge stretch of the imagination after all the evidence I--and you--have put forth in this thread), there is nothing stopping you from abusing it in a moment of anger or bitterness, then continuing to act like you are doing nothing wrong.

You are probably one of the worst laggers I've ever seen--and I'm not talking about the extent of lagging you do. You're just a huge jerk about it.

There's nothing stopping me from getting hacks and hacking on Graal, either. There's nothing stopping me from getting one of my friends to do me a favor and hack Graal to delete files. Your arguments are so flimsy, Door. And who cares if he's a jerk about his lag? Everybody on Graal is a jerk about something. Let's ban 98% of BTK from sparring because they're jerks about it. They're better at sparring than me, so god dammit, they have an unfair edge! I demand this be stopped, because I want easier sparring targets!

IT'S CHEATING!

[Door]

Originally Posted by tempandrew

There's nothing stopping me from getting hacks and hacking on Graal, either. There's nothing stopping me from getting one of my friends to do me a favor and hack Graal to delete files. Your arguments are so flimsy, Door.

What's stopping you is that there is a rule against it, and you can and will be punished for doing it. Laggers are openly allowed to continue.

Pandar, you have a terrible attitude about it too, and you need to cool your temper. Lagging is unfair because it essentially applies a huge handicap advantage onto whomever is using it. Once again, shall I direct you Chakrah's video? He shows us that utilizing his lag is a matter of taking a few steps and using spin attack.

I don't complain because I think he's better than most people at events, Castle Wars, and sparring. I complain because I know he's not.

Yet he still wins all the time solely due to his lag.

[Deeek]

Originally Posted by Door

Sorry, let me clarify since you seem to have serious issues with selective reading. This is the part I was directing you to (although I can see how you might be tempted to look at the pretty picture and ignore those silly word things above it).

Does that help?

It doesn't matter why someone is causing damage or hurting other people or being a public nuisance. What matters is that it has to be stopped, and this is true both online and irl.

Wow, so much whine.

"....I just had an epiphany. Let's just take everyone with connection issues, cram them into a rocket and blast them off into the side of a mountain!"

The problem is though is that all you're willing to do is point fingers and put the blame on others instead of just dealing with the problem yourself. Laggyness is a tenet of almost all MMOs, and waving your arms and screaming at it like a little kid isn't going to make it go away. Grow up.

[Chakrah]

Deek I agree, In other cases, on different MMOs I have never seen anyone punished because of their lag.

Actually, I just logged onto WoW and played for about 10 minutes, yeah I lagged but no one complained on the forums or messaged me whining because I beat them in a duel.

[tempandrew]

Originally Posted by Deeek

Wow, so much whine.

"....I just had an epiphany. Let's just take everyone with connection issues, cram them into a rocket and blast them off into the side of a mountain!"

The problem is though is that all you're willing to do is point fingers and put the blame on others instead of just dealing with the problem yourself. Laggyness is a tenet of almost all MMOs, and waving your arms and screaming at it like a little kid isn't going to make it go away. Grow up.

This. I've said it many times now, but this. Lag is part of playing online games, so you have to deal with it. Just because Graal is a low-scale MMO with a more tied-society doesn't mean it grants you the right to decide who is and who isn't allowed to participate in what events. I'll say it again, this is a ridiculous and outlandish discussion. It should be open and shut. No banning lag.

And as for my "temper", I am in no way angry. I'm making points. As someone with absolutely no lag when my internet is doing fine (as much as my router sucks, more than not the speed is at top quality), this decision does not affect me at all. I'm simply defending what's right, and having a 'lag cap' is not right. It literally is class discrimination, you're trying to ban people who can't obtain or afford a better internet from specific things.

[coreys]

Originally Posted by salesman

An ET's discretion usually means one of two things:

1. Eh, he's my friend so I'll let it slide.
2. I hate this lagger ***** (kicks cbk1994)

Not the way it should be done.

That's why you hire good ETs. Not that UN would know anything about hiring good staff that don't abuse their power.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Crono

shafting everyone not in the USA.

In other words, people who lag?

[Deeek]

So what're you guys gonna argue about when server latency is involved? You can't ban servers, you know.
Stupid laggy servers!

[coreys]

Originally Posted by Deeek

So what're you guys gonna argue about when server latency is involved? You can't ban servers, you know.
Stupid laggy servers!

Then ban Stefan

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Deeek

So what're you guys gonna argue about when server latency is involved? You can't ban servers, you know.
Stupid laggy servers!

Everybody experiences server lag, I don't see how this is relevant to what anybody is saying.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

In other words, people who lag?

No? The laggy players in question in this thread alone are all from the US anyway.

It seems everyone is raging all over the topic of lag and not getting the point of the OP. We dont need ridiculously laggy players running around in spar and event tournies. Some are legit, some are faked, either way these select few need to either fix their connection issues or be forced to sit out on these tournies.

How these players will be left out is a different story.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Crono

No?

If no, then serverside hit detection wouldn't be a problem for you...

[Crono]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

If no, then serverside hit detection wouldn't be a problem for you...

Serverside HD inherently favors those closest to it's location. Clientside, on the other hand, doesn't. It's even.

As I said before...

Originally Posted by Crono

I'm not against 300ms, it's hard to summarize someone's lag based soley on their latency. It's more of a subjective thing. If there's a player skipping around an entire spar ring and becomming very difficult to hit, it's not fair for the other players to have to put up with this. Simply put, it's the problem of the laggy user.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Crono

Serverside HD inherently favors those closest to it's location. Clientside, on the other hand, doesn't. It's even.

Internet games always favor those with lower latency. If clientside is "even", then lag wouldn't be a problem, which according to this thread, it is.

[Chakrah]

Originally Posted by tempandrew

I've said it many times now, but this. Lag is part of playing online games, so you have to deal with it. Just because Graal is a low-scale MMO with a more tied-society doesn't mean it grants you the right to decide who is and who isn't allowed to participate in what events. I'll say it again, this is a ridiculous and outlandish discussion. It should be open and shut. No banning lag.

This.

[salesman]

with most online games I play, if you lag you have the disadvantage, not the advantage. (i.e. freezing in place, loss of control, etc)