The problem with ignoring "unintentional" laggers.

[Chakrah]

Originally Posted by WaDaFack

Why did no1 complain about BlobZ? :O

yeah, i've been wondering the same thing.

[weeway]

I usually have about 50-75MS but sometime it gets bad because I share a connection with my brother and sister. In my case sure I lag a bit for other people but I also see other people lagging on my screen too so I guess it's more fair.
But as an ET I see people who have very bad lags and sometimes i agree it's not fair and they should be kicked but I can't kick them. haveing a ping monitor might help for some people but then theres people who randomly spike.

I usto have a really bad lag to and I just really wanted to play events and I always got kicked so I know how it feels it sucks.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by WaDaFack

Why did no1 complain about BlobZ? :O

Are you new? Everyone did.

[geneticfrog]

I SUPPORT A LAG CAP!!!

from experience in a TTPK on UN vs charka i was tellnig the ET to kick him beacause no one can see him move and hes still hitting poeople.

So I used up my whole 13 hp slashing his motionless char that warps around.... EVEN when i was slashing RIGHT in his face he still hit me and didn;t take any damage over and over.

it was just rediculous and people ended up leaving the event beacause the other teams couldn't fight back.

YES TO LAG CAP!

plus era has a lag cap of 250 MS already.... they dont care about a playesr feelings.... if you cant get it under 250 MS YOU are OUT OF THERE.

again.... yes to lag cap!

[geneticfrog]

so basically that means everyone playing the event has their event ruined so one guy can stay in and play even if he lags way too much.

Majority rules, lag cap is a yes!
kick the laggers in the butt!!!

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by geneticfrog

Majority rules

Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

I spoke to a few Era players and staff and laggers are removed from events there, just not automatically. Sounds a little contradictory to your beliefs.

[geneticfrog]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

he can still play graal just not events and major events due to WAy too much lag.... at the point where you cant hit him.

I payed for graal too.... dont i get a right to have faire game play?
if he can lag to 1k i want to be able to use WSU in major events.

I dont see the sense in making he laggers happy while 98% of the graal players who want to have faire game play must suffer.

it literally ruins the events if you cant hit someone so i want to be able to use WSU on laggers so i can god mode so its faire. it just will never end.

[WaDaFack]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Are you new? Everyone did.

Are you kidding me? When his lag was first introduced, almost everyone complained.
After a while, everyone just shut up.

Also, I agree. He paid to play the game, not to get banned from events, the only fun thing left to do on UN anyways.

[Heroin]

Originally Posted by geneticfrog

major bull****

can someone teach that idiot the difference between cheating on purpose and an issue you have no control about?

other than that, YES, it is unfair to the majority of the players to some degree, but expelling everyone from certain parts of the game just because of their handicap connection-wise is not the right way to go either.

if someone is actually going to look into this, good luck on making everyone happy.

[Chakrah]

Originally Posted by Heroin

can someone teach that idiot the difference between cheating on purpose and an issue you have no control about?

other than that, YES, it is unfair to the majority of the players to some degree, but expelling everyone from certain parts of the game just because of their handicap connection-wise is not the right way to go either.

if someone is actually going to look into this, good luck on making everyone happy.

qft

[Rufus]

I understand that some people will read what I've said, take their experiences of minor laggers, and feel like it is some kind of catastrophe in excluding these people from competitive aspects of the server. However..

68 Players Online
Highest Ping: geneticfrog (1033ms)
Lowest Ping: Graal754612 (34ms)
Average: 100.03ms
Pings Below 300ms: 97.05%

When people in this thread are saying "majority" they really do mean it. Can someone please explain to me what justifies allowing laggers to spoil the playing experience for the other players? I'm really not getting it.

[salesman]

I'll say it again, an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage. Regardless of whether or not it is intentional, it should not be allowed because it is unfair to those who are playing under normal circumstances.

A similar issue we had on Era involved players using a program to speed up processes on their computer (Graal in particular). Basically, everything on the clientside would run faster than normal, giving them a huge advantage. The detection we developed would catch people using the program, but it also caught someone whose computer came with artificial overclocking software pre-installed. The software on his computer was producing the same effect as the cheating program, therefore giving him the same advantages...unintentionally.

Now, would you disable the detection and allow cheaters to play on the server just because of this one person? Hell no.

Eventually the player learned how to disable the software on his computer and was allowed to play again, but the issue is still pretty much the same.

[Chakrah]

It's not an intentional spoiling, Rufus.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by salesman

A similar issue we had on Era involved players using a program to speed up processes on their computer (Graal in particular). Basically, everything on the clientside would run faster than normal, giving them a huge advantage. The detection we developed would catch people using the program, but it also caught someone whose computer came with artificial overclocking software pre-installed. The software on his computer was producing the same effect as the cheating program, therefore giving him the same advantages...unintentionally.

Now, would you disable the detection and allow cheaters to play on the server just because of this one person? Hell no.

Eventually the player learned how to disable the software on his computer and was allowed to play again, but the issue is still pretty much the same.

Someone was banned for the exact same reason yesterday, hence why I thought it would be an appropriate time to bring this up.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Someone was banned for the exact same reason yesterday, hence why I thought it would be an appropriate time to bring this up.

Using a utility to speed up the Windows process clock and lagging as a result of a poor internet connection are completely different things...

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Using a utility to speed up the Windows process clock and lagging as a result of a poor internet connection are completely different things...

No idea why you're quoting me when I didn't even bring it up (probably eager to argue with me) but they're both placing everyone else at an unfair disadvantage. Both are questionable, and if neither are provoked, don't expect either to change.

[Door]

Originally Posted by Chakrah

It's not an intentional spoiling, Rufus.

I don't think that the intention behind the cheating should affect how it is handled/whether it is handled at all. This is kind of an extreme comparison, but I think it gets my point across: When someone is hurting people irl and is deemed both sane and guilty, he/she is kept away from the public, usually in prison. When a mentally ill person is hurting others and cannot help what he/she is doing, that person is also kept away from the public. Is it fair to the mentally ill person? No. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.

It doesn't matter WHY it is happening, Chakrah. It's unfair to the vast majority of players, as Rufus showed us. I'm sorry if 3% of the playerbase cannot participate certain events/sparring/Castle Wars at times (or all the time). That is way less harmful than stealing from 97% of the players.

If people like BlobZ and Chakrah didn't take advantage of their lag by playing in events even when they receive complaints from other players, then this would not have to be enforced. Unfortunately, however...

[Demisis_P2P]

Would it be possible to use somebody's ping to draw a circle around their player that shows where they might be after delay is taken into account? So that you know how far ahead of them you need to slash/shoot?

[Chakrah]

you edited that pic clearly

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Rufus

No idea why you're quoting me when I didn't even bring it up (probably eager to argue with me) but they're both placing everyone else at an unfair disadvantage. Both are questionable, and if neither are provoked, don't expect either to change.

I quoted you because you quoted Sales, who had mentioned players who were using "speed tools" to increase the framerate of Graal. You, in your message, said someone had recently been banned for that, which is apparently reason to create a thread about lagging.

once again:

Originally Posted by Rufus

Someone was banned for the exact same reason yesterday, hence why I thought it would be an appropriate time to bring this up.

wat

[PrayDoh]

As a laggy player and as a member of the PR team on Unholy Nation, I support a lag cap on events and spars.

Lag prevents me from playing the game in the way I like to play it, which is skip-free, and actually being able to hit players where I see them on my screen. It's because of lag that I choose to remove myself from most oppurtunities to play events or spar.

I've been on both sides of the fence, and it is pretty undeniable that players with excessive lag have an advantage over others. To put it in perspective, Chakrah went from having 1600 rate before he lagged, to breaking 2100 with his excessive lag.

To reiterate, even though it would disallow me from playing a lot of events, I support a lag cap.

[Chakrah]

Let's say it's the 1950s..
You're all playing basketball right, being white (non laggers)..and I want to play basketball but I can't because im a lagger(Black).

You won't let me play because I'm a different.

same concept

[Rufus]

85 Players Online
Highest Ping: Chakrah (700ms)
Lowest Ping: KittyGirl97 (25ms)
Average: 90.08ms
Pings Below 300ms: 97.64%

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Chakrah

You think they would've fixed this problem a long time ago if it's such a big deal.

Oh wait, they still haven't so.
It must not be, so stop whining. QQ

They tried to, they just sucked at doing it and disabled it instead of trying to fix it.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

"Oh no, I paid for an online game that requires a decent internet connection and am shocked because suddenly me paying for an online game and knowing my connection sucks bit me in the ass? Maybe I should have thought twice about online gaming with my crappy internet."

Originally Posted by Chakrah

Let's say it's the 1950s..
You're all playing basketball right, being white (non laggers)..and I want to play basketball but I can't because im a lagger(Black).

You won't let me play because I'm a different.

same concept

Seriously? You're making that comparison?

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

"Oh no, I paid for an online game that requires a decent internet connection and am shocked because suddenly me paying for an online game and knowing my connection sucks bit me in the ass? Maybe I should have thought twice about online gaming with my crappy internet."

lol?

because it's totally ok to decide one day you're no longer going to allow players with high pings to participate in the game

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

lol?

because it's totally ok to decide one day you're no longer going to allow players with high pings to participate in the game

Sure, the requirements aren't written on paper like say, a PC game is. But if I buy a PC game that says I meet the minimal requirements, but not the recommended requirements... I'm not going to be shocked when I'm missing out on some of the game. Just because I paid for it doesn't mean I'm entitled to experience it when I lack what is recommended.

Participating in online gaming means you're putting yourself in that situation whether it's written down or not. I've downloaded plenty of games and realized I just couldn't enjoy it with my internet connection, even though I met the minimal requirements. Now this becomes especially bad when it goes from tarnishing your personal enjoyment, to messing it up for everyone else that has to play with you.

Really, all I hear is "stop whining, stop being butthurt"... sounds like who's really butthurt is the minority that this is going to affect. Why don't you deal with the fact that you're actually going to have to deal with having a ****ty internet connection instead of everyone else that has the displeasure of participating in events with you.

[snoop413]

a complete ban from events isn't necessary. looking at chakrah's profile he has over 500 hours and a total of 26 event wins. it's not 26 event wins this month, but total of all time since that feature was implemented in peoples profile. that is not very much at all. possibly he should be kicked in team events since thats when people complain the most, but i don't see it as that big of a deal. it is not hard to kill people who have a lot of lag, it is just time consuming.

i remember bell had an official rule against players who lag bad but it doesn't seem to be in affect anymore. there are still rules in events that are broken, even if they are minor ones. you aren't supposed to sit around and just talk to your friends and not fight, yet people do it all the time. yes, i do this too, but if they are going to bring back a lag rule please make sure to enforce all rules to be fair for everyone else.

[weeway]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

"Oh no, I paid for an online game that requires a decent internet connection and am shocked because suddenly me paying for an online game and knowing my connection sucks bit me in the ass? Maybe I should have thought twice about online gaming with my crappy internet."

Thats extreamly unfair.
Some people cant help lagging and people cant afford better internet.
it's not their fault there ISP sucks.
Just because they have bad internet dosent mean they should just be banned form playing games online.

[Chakrah]

i love everyone thats understanding my disability. :3

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by weeway

Thats extreamly unfair.
Some people cant help lagging and people cant afford better internet.
it's not their fault there ISP sucks.
Just because they have bad internet dosent mean they should just be banned form playing games online.

So just because people can't afford new computers or help it, they should be able to play modern games? It just doesn't work that way in the computing world. The reality is that people who have ****ty internet tend to NOT be able to enjoy online games. I can't play my xbox 360 online half the time because my internet just isn't up to it.

You know what games like Call of Duty do when I lag? They FRAME STUTTER. This makes it impossible for me to aim, which means I should just quit. Oh well... should I sue Activision because I paid for the game? Not really. It sucks, but just like I can't help it, I shouldn't expect others to have to deal with my misfortune as well. I've also had to stop playing another MMO I was playing because my internet was disrupting my ability to enjoy it. Sure, they don't ban me from the game, but I acknowledge that even if I have an internet connection, that doesn't mean I qualify to play all online games, or that others should be forced to let me.

I have a very unstable connection. I get disconnected a lot. Know what happens when I get disconnected for even a second during an event? I get booted upon reconnecting. Damn, they're discriminating against my unstable internet.

[ohshutup55]

I support a lag cap on events and spars.

I think it is unfair for the majority of the players to have to confront a really bad lagger who skips from right to left in 2 seconds. I admit that it would be unfair for the players who don't have any choice but to have a satellite connection, but these laggers form about 3-4% of the entire Unholy Nations' players.

I also think it is very unfair to have a really bad lagger participate to important Tournaments such as UTC & TTUTC because they take other players' chance to win the tournament by lagging so bad. It gets very hard to hit certain laggers to the point where some players give up on fighting because they realize they have no chance to win.

I have seen a lot of times while hosting events how laggers win some events so easily just because of their excessive lag. So I would be for the lag cap solution.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Sure, the requirements aren't written on paper like say, a PC game is. But if I buy a PC game that says I meet the minimal requirements, but not the recommended requirements... I'm not going to be shocked when I'm missing out on some of the game. Just because I paid for it doesn't mean I'm entitled to experience it when I lack what is recommended.

Participating in online gaming means you're putting yourself in that situation whether it's written down or not. I've downloaded plenty of games and realized I just couldn't enjoy it with my internet connection, even though I met the minimal requirements. Now this becomes especially bad when it goes from tarnishing your personal enjoyment, to messing it up for everyone else that has to play with you.

I'm not saying be unreasonable -- if someone is warping all over the place, go ahead and kick them. Arbitrary limits on ping, like the OP seems to be suggesting, are just unfair. If it's that much of a problem, use serverside hit detection.

Really, all I hear is "stop whining, stop being butthurt"... sounds like who's really butthurt is the minority that this is going to affect. Why don't you deal with the fact that you're actually going to have to deal with having a ****ty internet connection instead of everyone else that has the displeasure of participating in events with you.

My ping right now on UN is 29 MS.

[Cloven]

Definitely support a cap, and the cap should take averages into consideration in case (as was already stated) spikes occasionally happen. Over all this is likely the fairest method and will support the largest majority possible.

I feel for those people who are unable (for whatever reason) to obtain faster and/or more reliable internet service, however the greater majority should not be forced to suffer because of it. There is just no logic to be found in presuming otherwise in my opinion.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Cloven

Definitely support a cap, and the cap should take averages into consideration in case (as was already stated) spikes occasionally happen. Over all this is likely the fairest method and will support the largest majority possible.

I feel for those people who are unable (for whatever reason) to obtain faster and/or more reliable internet service, however the greater majority should not be forced to suffer because of it. There is just no logic to be found in presuming otherwise in my opinion.

You're not considering other options, such as serverside hit detection.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

You're not considering other options, such as serverside hit detection.

Ya, let's move Unholy Nation over to serverside hit detection. That'll go well... are you even listening to what you're saying?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

You're not considering other options, such as serverside hit detection.

Not one single person on the server would want this.

[EhDavidEh]

I'm gonna take a new spin on this one and not blame Chakrah for his excessive lag and refrain from calling him an ass (even though he is). Instead, I'm calling out the entire UN staff for not doing ANYTHING about it. How long has lag been a problem on Graal? Its a classic "he can't help how badly he lags" argument. Its gotten to the point where *Torrent and Aarian have been winning the TTMST, seriously people. I feel like there has to be SOME (if any) boundaries to these laggers. It may be true that the player paid the same money we did, but that doesnt necessarily mean that they deserve to enjoy the game to its fullest extent. We could simply argue "We paid more money for our good connection - we should get SOME sort of special treatment", but that would seem immature. Not only do these players not deserve to play events, they also shouldn't be allowed to participate in any major tournies. It still IS a big problem on Graal, which is sad, because you'd think by now people would have done something about it. Its gotten ridiculous and completely out of hand, and the only people who can (and probably wont) do anything is the UN staff.

I'm just interested to see if these restrictions are put into effect, how many peoples MS will drop from 600 to 250 to 100 to 49. "I FIXED MY INTERWEBZ GUYS!!!!!"

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Ya, let's move Unholy Nation over to serverside hit detection. That'll go well... are you even listening to what you're saying?

Of course I am, and I'm only talking about events/sparring. Serverside hit detection got a bad name because Classic got it wrong, but I'd bet it's preferable to clientside detection if done correctly.