The problem with ignoring "unintentional" laggers.

[Door]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

...what? Graal and other online games are built around competition. By giving themselves unfair advantages they are removing an advantage from others.

And yes, lag can give players an unfair advantage

okay.

[_Z3phyr_]

Originally Posted by kia345

I was ignoring this thread until I got cheated out of an event win because the ET was bros with Chakrah and his lag.

Screw you UN.

i was *****ing at ph8 when he did it to my team the round before yours!

[kia345]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Sure, there are people who take advantage of their lag, or even purposefully lag, but there are also honest people with poor connections who would be locked out of a game they paid for.

So if I hack to help people, it's okay? As long as I'm not using it for an unfair advantage?

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Door

okay.

What's your point? Would you penalize players with better computers because they have an advantage over those with slower ones?

[_Z3phyr_]

and by this logic it should be okay to give me 20 hearts. as long as i'm hittable, right?

edit:

Originally Posted by cbk1994

What's your point? Would you penalize players with better computers because they have an advantage over those with slower ones?

hell to the yes i would, and so would all of the other video game developers. they do it all the time: they're called ****ing system requirements!

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by _Z3phyr_

hell to the yes i would, and so would all of the other video game developers. they do it all the time: they're called ****ing system requirements!

You would penalize players with better computers?

[kia345]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

You would penalize players with better computers?

Would you offer an advantage to people with slower computers?

"hey bro, ur connection is bad. here, u play these events. u'll win. dese other ppl who love to play? who also spent money? screw equality bro, u win"

[Door]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

What's your point? Would you penalize players with better computers because they have an advantage over those with slower ones?

No, because they are playing Graal in the way it was meant to be played, and they make up 97% of the population.

More importantly, however, let me call you out on downright ignoring Rufus when he asked you an extremely pertinent question:

Originally Posted by Rufus

How come Era kicks laggy players? You never responded.

Maybe I should go play Era. Seems like they have the right idea there.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Door

More importantly, however, let me call you out on downright ignoring Rufus when he asked you an extremely pertinent question

I already answered his "extremely pertinent question":

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I'm not saying be unreasonable -- if someone is warping all over the place, go ahead and kick them. Arbitrary limits on ping, like the OP seems to be suggesting, are just unfair. If it's that much of a problem, use serverside hit detection.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I already answered his "extremely pertinent question":

Why are they kicked?

[salesman]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

But hackers broke the rules, unlike laggers.

Why are there rules against hacking? It gives you an unfair advantage over other players. Now, just some food for thought, let's take a look at this statement which is pretty much the only argument laggers have going for them in this thread:

Originally Posted by cbk1994

laggers have no control over their lag.

what if hackers had no control over hacking? I know it sounds ridiculous, but for sake of argument, bear with me. Would you allow these players to be invincible, run at Mach 10, etc just because they have no control over it? No, you would not because like I've said 12304918401293 times in this thread -- an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Why are they kicked?

Because right now on Era serverside hit detection is unusable; we've tried it and are reserving it for new events because of the nature of projectiles.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It's an unfair advantage.

Ding ding ding!

[cbk1994]

I've never said that lag can't give an advantage; players also have unfair advantages for all sorts of things: computer power, location, language skills, reaction time, and so on. A player cannot control the quality of their internet connection, therefore they should not be penalized for it when the server is not even willing to take appropriate steps to make it fair for all players (read: serverside hit detection).

[kia345]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

A player cannot control the quality of their internet connection

Yeah man, the government provided me with a terrible internet service, it's not like we live in a world where people are capable of purchasing higher end entertainment products and services in order to keep up with the advancing times, wat2do comrade

I'm going to go drive my model T down the road at 20mph, and I'll be damned if the police stop me for going too slow.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by kia345

Yeah man, the government provided me with a terrible internet service, it's not like we live in a world where people are capable of purchasing higher end entertainment products and services in order to keep up with the advancing times, wat2do comrade

I'm going to go drive my model T down the road at 20mph, and I'll be damned if the police stop me for going too slow.

An internet connection is not a car; your options are limited based on where you live. Some players have a choice of either satellite or dial-up internet.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

An internet connection is not a car; your options are limited based on where you live. Some players have a choice of either satellite or dial-up internet.

Neither satellite nor dial-up is recommended for online gaming. Look on any website, any ISP, any speed tests. What would you say to a player who purchased a new computer (that was not recommended for gaming, but they went for it anyway as it's all they could afford) is complaining that they can't play a certain game? The same applies here.

[Hiro]

we could just start banning people with a constant lag, where "constant lag" is at the discretion of the banner

[fowlplay4]

Damn this is like.. Era vs UN Thread Wars.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Rufus

What would you say to a player who purchased a new computer (that was not recommended for gaming, but they went for it anyway as it's all they could afford) is complaining that they can't play a certain game"

"Did the game say, before purchasing, that you would be unable to play on your computer?"

The GraalOnline recommended (and required) system is very generic: "Internet Connection (Modem or LAN)". That doesn't even specify a type of internet connection.

[WaDaFack]

When UN had 200players, their where a load of laggers. The community diminished to 60-90people, and you decide to complain now? Heh.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

"Did the game say, before purchasing, that you would be unable to play on your computer?"

The GraalOnline recommended (and required) system is very generic: "Internet Connection (Modem or LAN)". That doesn't even specify a type of internet connection.

UN can certainly change the terms for participating in their events and tournaments...that has nothing to do with Graal's system requirements.

[tempandrew]

This has turned less into a debate and more into spiteful post after spiteful post. To think I was criticized in this thread for having an 'attitude'; most of you are becoming incredibly snippy as the page count gets higher and higher. Many of you really need to grow up, and I think those of who I'm talking about know who they are. A 'lag cap' is not proposed in any other game but Graal, ironically the same game that is notorious for it's whiny and bratty playerbase that can never have things not go their way. You're not going to get away with a solution that's one-sided. Because you'll continuously get *****ing and whining from whatever side didn't get their way.

Unless you can all start wiping the tears off your cheeks and actually discussing this like civilized human beings, good luck finding a solution, because the only logical answer to this is a compromise that both sides can live under.

tl;dr - Grow up and make this an actual discussion.

[Demisis_P2P]

I pay $110 a month for 20MB/s Cable and I still have a 400ms latency on Era.
I've spent over $800 on routers and wireless cards to try and make my connection as fast as possible.
I have less than 200ms latency on American CS:S servers, and about the same on American WoW servers. So I'm not sure why my latency is almost double on Graal (I have UDP enabled).

There are about 8 people who all live in the same city as me and play Graal. 5 of them that I know personally all have the same ISP (Optus) and we all delay about the same.
Some of them are terrible sparrers (sorry Isra) and don't get kicked from Events for lagging; they're a free kill essentially. But my brother and I are both good sparrers and we do get kicked from events for lagging.

How is that fair?

I've played Graal on my university's internet connection (at the time universities and a few private companies had the only fiber lines in Australia). And I was just as good at sparring without lag, if not better, because I could actually see my opponent moving in real time as well. Normally I need to adjust to allow for the same 400ms delay that they would need to allow for to hit me as well.
I'm fairly confident that I could still win the majority of events that I enter even without my lag.

So then how is it fair to kick somebody from an event they probably would have won anyway just because they lag?

EDIT: bolded what I think is a key point that makes lag a lot more fair than what people are making it out to be.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

I pay $110 a month for 20MB/s Cable and I still have a 400ms latency on Era.
I've spent over $800 on routers and wireless cards to try and make my connection as fast as possible.
I have less than 200ms latency on American CS:S servers, and about the same on American WoW servers. So I'm not sure why my latency is almost double on Graal (I have UDP enabled).

There are about 8 people who all live in the same city as me and play Graal. 5 of them that I know personally all have the same ISP (Optus) and we all delay about the same.
Some of them are terrible sparrers (sorry Isra) and don't get kicked from Events for lagging; they're a free kill essentially. But my brother and I are both good sparrers and we do get kicked from events for lagging.

How is that fair?

I've played Graal on my university's internet connection (at the time universities and a few private companies had the only fiber lines in Australia). And I was just as good at sparring without lag, if not better, because I could actually see my opponent moving in real time as well. Normally I need to adjust to allow for the same 400ms delay that they would need to allow for to hit me as well.
I'm fairly confident that I could still win the majority of events that I enter even without my lag.

So then how is it fair to kick somebody from an event they probably would have won anyway just because they lag?

EDIT: bolded what I think is a key point that makes lag a lot more fair than what people are making it out to be.

I'm pretty sure you're an Era player, and there is a vast difference in the competitive style on both servers. I had played Era very very briefly in 2008 and I realized I was worse with lag. Whenever I lagged on UN, I would win a majority of spars with relative ease. I wish I could be more elaborate but I am not very knowledgeable with the technicality behind latency and Graal.

Point is, most people aren't better without their lag when sparring on a server like Unholy Nation.

[Door]

Originally Posted by tempandrew

This has turned less into a debate and more into spiteful post after spiteful post. To think I was criticized in this thread for having an 'attitude'; most of you are becoming incredibly snippy as the page count gets higher and higher. Many of you really need to grow up, and I think those of who I'm talking about know who they are. A 'lag cap' is not proposed in any other game but Graal, ironically the same game that is notorious for it's whiny and bratty playerbase that can never have things not go their way. You're not going to get away with a solution that's one-sided. Because you'll continuously get *****ing and whining from whatever side didn't get their way.

Unless you can all start wiping the tears off your cheeks and actually discussing this like civilized human beings, good luck finding a solution, because the only logical answer to this is a compromise that both sides can live under.

tl;dr - Grow up and make this an actual discussion.

Haha, once again Pandar, you have a terrible attitude. You are complaining that the thread has just become a slew of useless and bitter posts, but the most useless bitter post in quite a while has been yours.

What does your post even say, Pandar? You complained about the general topic of lag caps, which I will address below, then vaguely suggested that we need a compromise in half of a sentence (as though that qualifies as a contribution to the debate or even as a remotely enlightening statement), but the rest of your post is used to accuse people of crying and whining. Nice.

But I digress.

The reason why no other game has a lag cap is that no other game has a massive glitch regarding lag--one that offers an advantage to people using insufficient system requirements. (And one that is envied and emulated by those with sufficient system requirements in order to supplement their own performance.)

Nota Bene: If you intended your post as some kind of symbolic satire through the use of blatant hypocrisy (like an interpretive dance that leaves viewers gagging, but they later find out that the performance was intended to mock interpretive dancing), then bang up job, mate!

[tempandrew]

Useless and bitter? I'm telling you you guys are going to get no where with actually discussing the issue at hand with each other, laggers to non-laggers, pro-lagcap to con-lagcap, and to make a compromise to appease each side.

I'm not sure how it's done in Doorland, but in human society, to solve problems, the most effective method is usually to calmly discuss it in an organize manner and to step-by-step go over things you could do to solve the problem. We've thrown our opinions in, that was step 1. The thread is delving deeper into useless banter, crying one way or the other, and not progressing to another step. Before you criticize me, saying I said nothing in my post, read the entire thing, please.



Whatever, though. Good luck finding a solution. I'm sure whatever decision that you guys reach will end up in one side becoming extremely *****y and moany, just like EVERY other decision made on Graal. You people can only see in black and white.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by PrayDoh

A lot of the discussion here is trying to find a solution to the problem, not necessarily trying to use a system that we've already tried and proven faulty.



Event wins aren't counted in team events, where his lag is causing a lot of problems (i.e. FreezeTag, TTPK)

--
The PR Admin, both GP Admins and the ET Admin all agree that it's an unfair advantage, and that players with excessive lag should be disallowed from participating in certain activities.

That being said, it sort of changes the nature of the thread. The question is no longer whether or not we should disallow people with excessive lag, but how.

I'm in favour of coreys' idea, where it'll be up to the ET/GP/Spar Mods discretion. We had this system in place a year or two ago, and only 2 players were banned for an extended period of time due to lag.(eagle4 and BlobZ)

decision has already been made, now it's up to you to complain

[Mark Sir Link]

I agree, Rufus and Xaphan should no longer be allowed to participate in sparring or events.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Perfect logic right here folks.

as a matter of fact, it is.

If you weren't retarded you'd be able to tell that sparring is a zero sum game. alas

[jorollychu]

Agree. Rufus has one of the most annoying subtle lags on graal. Should force UK people to have their own sparring tournaments.

[Mark Sir Link]

if people were actually choosing to not participate in events or spars because Chakrah is there I might believe this is an actual problem but right now it just seems like some "sky is falling" attitude aimed at someone who has pissed Rufus off.

[Crono]

so basically the thread is 13 pages long because people either

a) dont get it
or
b) trowlin

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Crono

so basically the thread is 13 pages long because people either

a) dont get it
or
b) trowlin

or there's people who get it entirely disagree for entirely reasonable reasons.

if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums, you might convince me this is really game ruining. However, people still seem to be participating with Chakrah around so it just seems to be a witch hunt.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

or there's people who get it entirely disagree for entirely reasonable reasons.

if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums, you might convince me this is really game ruining. However, people still seem to be participating with Chakrah around so it just seems to be a witch hunt.

So they should stop playing the game just to try to make a point against less than a handful of players?

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

So they should stop playing the game just to try to make a point against less than a handful of players?

I'm not saying they should actively protest, what I am saying is it clearly isn't bothering them as much as they claim if they're still participating with him there.

[Deeek]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums.

Of course that's not going to happen because nobody legitimately cares about it.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

I'm not saying they should actively protest, what I am saying is it clearly isn't bothering them as much as they claim if they're still participating with him there.

Maybe they care more about trying to milk what little enjoyment can be got from this game without sacrificing it all because of one or two other players.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Maybe they care more about trying to milk what little enjoyment can be got from this game without sacrificing it all because of one or two other players.

well then it seems like they're still enjoying it regardless of Chakrah being there?

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums, you might convince me this is really game ruining. However, people still seem to be participating with Chakrah around so it just seems to be a witch hunt.

some ET's will remove you if you're too laggy, others wont. i think this thread is trying to standardize it on UN and i cant possibly see why you'd disagree with it.