The problem with ignoring "unintentional" laggers.

[WaDaFack]

When UN had 200players, their where a load of laggers. The community diminished to 60-90people, and you decide to complain now? Heh.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

"Did the game say, before purchasing, that you would be unable to play on your computer?"

The GraalOnline recommended (and required) system is very generic: "Internet Connection (Modem or LAN)". That doesn't even specify a type of internet connection.

UN can certainly change the terms for participating in their events and tournaments...that has nothing to do with Graal's system requirements.

[tempandrew]

This has turned less into a debate and more into spiteful post after spiteful post. To think I was criticized in this thread for having an 'attitude'; most of you are becoming incredibly snippy as the page count gets higher and higher. Many of you really need to grow up, and I think those of who I'm talking about know who they are. A 'lag cap' is not proposed in any other game but Graal, ironically the same game that is notorious for it's whiny and bratty playerbase that can never have things not go their way. You're not going to get away with a solution that's one-sided. Because you'll continuously get *****ing and whining from whatever side didn't get their way.

Unless you can all start wiping the tears off your cheeks and actually discussing this like civilized human beings, good luck finding a solution, because the only logical answer to this is a compromise that both sides can live under.

tl;dr - Grow up and make this an actual discussion.

[Demisis_P2P]

I pay $110 a month for 20MB/s Cable and I still have a 400ms latency on Era.
I've spent over $800 on routers and wireless cards to try and make my connection as fast as possible.
I have less than 200ms latency on American CS:S servers, and about the same on American WoW servers. So I'm not sure why my latency is almost double on Graal (I have UDP enabled).

There are about 8 people who all live in the same city as me and play Graal. 5 of them that I know personally all have the same ISP (Optus) and we all delay about the same.
Some of them are terrible sparrers (sorry Isra) and don't get kicked from Events for lagging; they're a free kill essentially. But my brother and I are both good sparrers and we do get kicked from events for lagging.

How is that fair?

I've played Graal on my university's internet connection (at the time universities and a few private companies had the only fiber lines in Australia). And I was just as good at sparring without lag, if not better, because I could actually see my opponent moving in real time as well. Normally I need to adjust to allow for the same 400ms delay that they would need to allow for to hit me as well.
I'm fairly confident that I could still win the majority of events that I enter even without my lag.

So then how is it fair to kick somebody from an event they probably would have won anyway just because they lag?

EDIT: bolded what I think is a key point that makes lag a lot more fair than what people are making it out to be.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

I pay $110 a month for 20MB/s Cable and I still have a 400ms latency on Era.
I've spent over $800 on routers and wireless cards to try and make my connection as fast as possible.
I have less than 200ms latency on American CS:S servers, and about the same on American WoW servers. So I'm not sure why my latency is almost double on Graal (I have UDP enabled).

There are about 8 people who all live in the same city as me and play Graal. 5 of them that I know personally all have the same ISP (Optus) and we all delay about the same.
Some of them are terrible sparrers (sorry Isra) and don't get kicked from Events for lagging; they're a free kill essentially. But my brother and I are both good sparrers and we do get kicked from events for lagging.

How is that fair?

I've played Graal on my university's internet connection (at the time universities and a few private companies had the only fiber lines in Australia). And I was just as good at sparring without lag, if not better, because I could actually see my opponent moving in real time as well. Normally I need to adjust to allow for the same 400ms delay that they would need to allow for to hit me as well.
I'm fairly confident that I could still win the majority of events that I enter even without my lag.

So then how is it fair to kick somebody from an event they probably would have won anyway just because they lag?

EDIT: bolded what I think is a key point that makes lag a lot more fair than what people are making it out to be.

I'm pretty sure you're an Era player, and there is a vast difference in the competitive style on both servers. I had played Era very very briefly in 2008 and I realized I was worse with lag. Whenever I lagged on UN, I would win a majority of spars with relative ease. I wish I could be more elaborate but I am not very knowledgeable with the technicality behind latency and Graal.

Point is, most people aren't better without their lag when sparring on a server like Unholy Nation.

[Door]

Originally Posted by tempandrew

This has turned less into a debate and more into spiteful post after spiteful post. To think I was criticized in this thread for having an 'attitude'; most of you are becoming incredibly snippy as the page count gets higher and higher. Many of you really need to grow up, and I think those of who I'm talking about know who they are. A 'lag cap' is not proposed in any other game but Graal, ironically the same game that is notorious for it's whiny and bratty playerbase that can never have things not go their way. You're not going to get away with a solution that's one-sided. Because you'll continuously get *****ing and whining from whatever side didn't get their way.

Unless you can all start wiping the tears off your cheeks and actually discussing this like civilized human beings, good luck finding a solution, because the only logical answer to this is a compromise that both sides can live under.

tl;dr - Grow up and make this an actual discussion.

Haha, once again Pandar, you have a terrible attitude. You are complaining that the thread has just become a slew of useless and bitter posts, but the most useless bitter post in quite a while has been yours.

What does your post even say, Pandar? You complained about the general topic of lag caps, which I will address below, then vaguely suggested that we need a compromise in half of a sentence (as though that qualifies as a contribution to the debate or even as a remotely enlightening statement), but the rest of your post is used to accuse people of crying and whining. Nice.

But I digress.

The reason why no other game has a lag cap is that no other game has a massive glitch regarding lag--one that offers an advantage to people using insufficient system requirements. (And one that is envied and emulated by those with sufficient system requirements in order to supplement their own performance.)

Nota Bene: If you intended your post as some kind of symbolic satire through the use of blatant hypocrisy (like an interpretive dance that leaves viewers gagging, but they later find out that the performance was intended to mock interpretive dancing), then bang up job, mate!

[tempandrew]

Useless and bitter? I'm telling you you guys are going to get no where with actually discussing the issue at hand with each other, laggers to non-laggers, pro-lagcap to con-lagcap, and to make a compromise to appease each side.

I'm not sure how it's done in Doorland, but in human society, to solve problems, the most effective method is usually to calmly discuss it in an organize manner and to step-by-step go over things you could do to solve the problem. We've thrown our opinions in, that was step 1. The thread is delving deeper into useless banter, crying one way or the other, and not progressing to another step. Before you criticize me, saying I said nothing in my post, read the entire thing, please.



Whatever, though. Good luck finding a solution. I'm sure whatever decision that you guys reach will end up in one side becoming extremely *****y and moany, just like EVERY other decision made on Graal. You people can only see in black and white.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by PrayDoh

A lot of the discussion here is trying to find a solution to the problem, not necessarily trying to use a system that we've already tried and proven faulty.



Event wins aren't counted in team events, where his lag is causing a lot of problems (i.e. FreezeTag, TTPK)

--
The PR Admin, both GP Admins and the ET Admin all agree that it's an unfair advantage, and that players with excessive lag should be disallowed from participating in certain activities.

That being said, it sort of changes the nature of the thread. The question is no longer whether or not we should disallow people with excessive lag, but how.

I'm in favour of coreys' idea, where it'll be up to the ET/GP/Spar Mods discretion. We had this system in place a year or two ago, and only 2 players were banned for an extended period of time due to lag.(eagle4 and BlobZ)

decision has already been made, now it's up to you to complain

[Mark Sir Link]

I agree, Rufus and Xaphan should no longer be allowed to participate in sparring or events.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Perfect logic right here folks.

as a matter of fact, it is.

If you weren't retarded you'd be able to tell that sparring is a zero sum game. alas

[jorollychu]

Agree. Rufus has one of the most annoying subtle lags on graal. Should force UK people to have their own sparring tournaments.

[Mark Sir Link]

if people were actually choosing to not participate in events or spars because Chakrah is there I might believe this is an actual problem but right now it just seems like some "sky is falling" attitude aimed at someone who has pissed Rufus off.

[Crono]

so basically the thread is 13 pages long because people either

a) dont get it
or
b) trowlin

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Crono

so basically the thread is 13 pages long because people either

a) dont get it
or
b) trowlin

or there's people who get it entirely disagree for entirely reasonable reasons.

if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums, you might convince me this is really game ruining. However, people still seem to be participating with Chakrah around so it just seems to be a witch hunt.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

or there's people who get it entirely disagree for entirely reasonable reasons.

if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums, you might convince me this is really game ruining. However, people still seem to be participating with Chakrah around so it just seems to be a witch hunt.

So they should stop playing the game just to try to make a point against less than a handful of players?