4 Years of being stagnant

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

How is it stupid? Classic is in dire need of a capable HD. If that means it's gonna break stuff then that stuff needs to be fixed. I'd rather have a better HD and have things fixed up than just leave what's there now just because it might break a few things.

Classic is in dire need of new content, not more HD's.
If we keep spending dev time to switch everything to default for a couple years, we would then have a default HD and nothing else(it isnt going to break a few things, its going to break MOST things).
Meanwhile, UN and other servers have default HD and a ton of other things to do. Who wants to keep playing classic in its current state with whatever HD is has?

[BlackSolider]

So we're going to take two steps backwards again?

Yes, remaking all those scripts might solve the problem if the HD worked out, but it'd set the dev team back even further.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

So we're going to take two steps backwards again?

Yes, remaking all those scripts might solve the problem if the HD worked out, but it'd set the dev team back even further.

I hope that was a response to Dusty's post and not mine. If it was about mine, I never said that myself or anyone else was going to take this route.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I hope that was a response to Dusty's post and not mine. If it was about mine, I never said that myself or anyone else was going to take this route.

It was, since dusty suggested to fix all the scripts to work with default hd.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Okay, so a generic chat system removes the stagnation from a server?

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

no, but its one element to a grander picture.
if people would praise the development team for the good things they release, with a few bugs or not, they'll end up being more inspired.

Originally Posted by Rufus

You suggested that by releasing this half-done and inconsistent chat system it removes the stagnation of the server, but all you're really doing is leading the staff into a false sense of security with their releases. This might please a few people for a few hours, but it really isn't something that is worth logging on to see and you of all people should understand how important that is right now.

You suggested it. He disagreed.

This is a big picture item here, try to see past what it is now.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

This is a big picture item here, try to see past what it is now.

As a player, why would I take a release and think of how it could be done instead of taking the release at face value and using what it currently does? I'm not going to praise something that has the potential to be good if it currently isn't either, I'm going to praise something that is good. If something has been released for the sake of releasing something (and it is pretty obvious too) why would anyone accept that as a contributing factor to removing stagnation? Because it is content and it is a release?

A system like this does have potential (I have something similar in functionality on that server you seem eager to bring up every time you can't find something to say) but I don't see how releasing what was released on Classic in its current state is contributing to the bigger picture of removing the stagnation of the server at current, because it isn't.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

Its togglable, so you can have whatever chat system you desire. old or new. The only incohesiveness is that toalls and toguilds appear twice, in the chat window and in the playerlist/minimap as a bubble.

The chat system and the icon are aesthetically inconsistent with the systems on Classic in favor of a more generic style that isn't used on the server anywhere at all. That is why I stated that it isn't cohesive with the rest of the server and perhaps if it matched Classic a little more it would be cohesive after all.

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

I never suggested it removes the stagnation of the server, no one single release will please anyone for more than a few hours alone. I dont even expect cards to do that, and thats a HUGE project and a HUGE new release It's all part of a bigger picture.

DarkCloud_PK [A]: the more compliments and positive response a dev team gets for their work, they more they will be inspired to do more
TheDae [A]: They dont do anything worth praising
DarkCloud_PK [A]: thats why i dont make events anymore, because people never gave me compliments or use the **** i made
maximus_asinus [A]: Dae, this system is a prime example of something good
DarkCloud_PK [A]: ok thedae, how about we just be stagnant for another 4 years

[Crimson2005]

The chat system is bollocks anyway, we now have to read messages we receive twice. Can't you just make toalls appear in the F2 window? I'm sure it used to do that when v2 was around...

[DarkCloud_PK]

read the whole thing in there, i said, if theres a way to disable toalls with the chat window enabled, that would be easy to implement.

I personally hate how toalls work currently, and would rather have them in any sort of chat window

[maximus_asinus]

Always finding a reason to criticize, eh Rufus? Hey, does Bomy Island have a release date yet?

As for the chat system, it is a great idea in my opinion. Toall barely functioned as it was, this is a more useful system, and there is huge potential for this system. For me, it has eliminated the need to use the playerlist other than PMs (which I assume could be scripted into this system as well). I can copy/paste toall chat (useful for links), no longer will I miss messages if I accidently double-click. Down the road the system could get integrated into other systems, from interactions from NPCs, to something as big as event notification. I could go on and on about where this can go.

[Crimson2005]

I just don't understand why it's there. Why has there been time spent on this npc which allows us to do what we could already? It's not exactly easier, I mean we still have to read and click the green/grey bubbles. Instead of traditional toguild: messages showing in it, why just not have /guild messages. Like what Zodiac has. After all that's what they're trying to emulate, right?

[BlackSolider]

So we aren't going to praise a dev for actually releasing something b/c it isn't perfect?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

So we aren't going to praise a dev for actually releasing something b/c it isn't perfect?

Nothing on Graal is ever going to be perfect.

[BlackSolider]

The HD is never going to be agreeable to every single person since someone is always going to be at a disadvantage.

Both the HD and content are very important. But you can't put off one to work on the other. We might have to make an HD thats compatible with the current levels but is better than either of the two we have right now. I'm not sure what that is or how it would work, but all I know is both hds have their flaws and its causing a huge commotion right now.

DC's right though. No matter what the HD is, Classic desperately needs content. GCs can help the server greatly, but with the playercount in the 20s-30s events cannot always be continuously hosted, thus creating gaps in between events. Classic needs solid content to fill the void. What that is, I don't know.

We need an HD that most of the people can work with, AND we need content to will in the gaps between events. But we can't forge along with two HDs, nor can we rebuild everything for default and not make anything new.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

The HD is never going to be agreeable to every single person since someone is always going to be at a disadvantage.

Both the HD and content are very important. But you can't put off one to work on the other. We might have to make an HD thats compatible with the current levels but is better than either of the two we have right now. I'm not sure what that is or how it would work, but all I know is both hds have their flaws and its causing a huge commotion right now.

DC's right though. No matter what the HD is, Classic desperately needs content. GCs can help the server greatly, but with the playercount in the 20s-30s events cannot always be continuously hosted, thus creating gaps in between events. Classic needs solid content to fill the void. What that is, I don't know.

We need an HD that most of the people can work with, AND we need content to will in the gaps between events. But we can't forge along with two HDs, nor can we rebuild everything for default and not make anything new.

The problem is though, if you add content now, it will be accustomed to the HD that will eventually need to be revisited. Then there is going to be the same problem that is right now, except even more that will need to be fixed when the HD is finally changed.

[BlackSolider]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

We might have to make an HD thats compatible with the current levels but is better than either of the two we have right now.

I don't know if we can make an HD that is compatible with all levels. Apparently clientside was, but perhaps a different HD wouldn't be able to. IF we can make one that works with all levels AND it sits well with the majority, it'd be the best option.

[WhiteDragon]

The chat system wasn't meant to "revive the server" or take it out of stagnation. It was just a small update that will hopefully make playing the server easier. It took me collectively under 2 hours to make so don't feel like your being robbed of something amazing in it's place.


And I think the point trying to be put across in these last few posts is this:
If a player doesn't like the content released, they can either provide constructive criticism or bash the content, and there is a difference. Bashing the content doesn't do the server any good -- it only slows down development by discouraging staff.

If you think the quality of everything being released is too low, then I would suggest taking it up with high officials on the server and ask them to reevaluate the department.
Otherwise, if you just think there are a few problems, help fix them by pointing them out.


And in response to the whole HD argument, we are aware that it's a problem and we're trying to take the most beneficial route to fixing it. We are also aware that fixing it won't be the holy grail of the server and make everyone migrate, hence why we aren't dedicating the whole development team to it.
Rather than arguing about the HD I would suggest waiting for the newer one to be released which should feel more like the default, and possibly talking about other problems on the server.

[xnervNATx]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

The chat system wasn't meant to "revive the server" or take it out of stagnation. It was just a small update that will hopefully make playing the server easier. It took me collectively under 2 hours to make so don't feel like your being robbed of something amazing in it's place.

ya....thx for it . but its kinda add lag when the box is filled with messages , at least to me

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by xnervNATx

ya....thx for it . but its kinda add lag when the box is filled with messages , at least to me

Yes that can happen. Also does that with the F2 window for me(and to many other people, but they don't tend to understand why they lag so much).

[BlackSolider]

No, the comparison wasn't perfect. But the point should be obvious. You essentially got what you asked for. Shut up and be happy. You could have just as easily gotten no presents or something completely different like a barbie doll (in the case of graal, no additions or a strange HD you didn't ask for.) The dev team actually listened to the players and gave them something they asked for; don't ***** because it isn't perfect or everything you hoped it'd be.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

No, the comparison wasn't perfect. But the point should be obvious. You essentially got what you asked for. Shut up and be happy. You could have just as easily gotten no presents or something completely different like a barbie doll (in the case of graal, no additions or a strange HD you didn't ask for.) The dev team actually listened to the players and gave them something they asked for; don't ***** because it isn't perfect or everything you hoped it'd be.

when money changes hands it ceases to be a gift

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

You essentially got what you asked for.

No they didn't. Have you read anything in this thread? You seem to skip the part where the HD is below par.

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Shut up and be happy.

Why?

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

You could have just as easily gotten no presents or something completely

Not a good argument. What if Classic hires a substandard scripter, and this scripter works for months and months on a 'new system' for Classic. He actually works his ass off, but because he is a substandard scripter, when he finally releases it it is pretty damn bad and ultimately breaks the server. Nothing is hardly functional, HD sucks, movement sucks, lots of bugs. But he worked his ass off! Does that mean "we should be happy with it because we could have got nothing?" That's basically what you're saying here, because Thor worked and tried to give people what they wanted, they should be happy with it... it doesn't work like that. Have some standards, or else people will release substandard things because they know people don't give a ****.

[MysticX2X]

That's funny Gladius because I remember you primarily being one of the people to complain oh so much about this HD. In fact, only the US guild complained so much.

[xnervNATx]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

That's funny Gladius because I remember you primarily being one of the people to complain oh so much about this HD. In fact, only the US guild complained so much.

look who talking mister "i stop playing ctf cause this hd suck".

[BlackSolider]

Funny because I never said it was good in any of my previous posts. I'm simply saying stop *****ing about something you asked for. Comment about it or try to get it changed. But stop crying all the damn time over it. "No I won't join the event b/c its clientside!!!!!"

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think he means it effects them psychologically. It isn't simply a matter of choice, it's something that hits you subconsciously. If players constantly attack you, and criticize everything you make, big or small, you'll begin to lack the enthusiasm and desire you may of had when you begun, and then you'll stop developing altogether. He is suggesting that we use positive reinforcement when dealing with the content presented to us. You can criticize, but do it in a helpful way that won't discourage the developer (and this is not to say that you have to hold their hand and make sure they don't throw a fit; just saying there are other ways of saying 'I hate it' other than 'it sucks').

I don't think I have ever stated that something just sucks, in fact I don't think I have seen anyone say something like that for a long time because I encouraged people to start voicing their true opinions more. If the development team need to be babied in order to for them to work and release decent content though then they're not doing their jobs. Positive reinforcement doesn't work for content that you genuinely don't think fits in either.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

That's funny Gladius because I remember you primarily being one of the people to complain oh so much about this HD. In fact, only the US guild complained so much.

Okay so everyone else (including the people I do not get on with) just jumped on the bandwaggon, eh?

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

"No I won't join the event b/c its clientside!!!!!"

What is wrong with that quote?

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I don't think I have ever stated that something just sucks, in fact I don't think I have seen anyone say something like that for a long time because I encouraged people to start voicing their true opinions more. If the development team need to be babied in order to for them to work and release decent content though then they're not doing their jobs. Positive reinforcement doesn't work for content that you genuinely don't think fits in either.

I never meant you specifically, and yes, people still go around and say "it sucks", or "I don't like it" without giving any constructive criticism. Some people say "it isn't Classic" and leave it at that, which is exactly the same. What is constructive about that?

I never suggested babying them, I only meant that you should treat them how they deserve to be treated; as people, people who volunteered. They don't get much respect from anyone for the hard work and long hours they put in (which they don't see a penny for, nor even a thank you).

[Crimson2005]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

I'm simply saying stop *****ing about something you asked for.

Yea they asked for it but that doesn't mean that the players should be blamed because it is crap. The players didn't know it was going to be crap did they? No. Just blame the players for the Developers doings though, right?

[Bell]

Probably a good thing most these people weren't around pre npc to remember the horrific lag that is considered so wonderful to faded memories now.

[MysticX2X]

@Gladius: Did you respond to anything at all in my post? Apparently it doesn't look like it.
@Rufus: I just haven't seen that many people complain so much from other parties.
@Xaphan: Yeah the players knew what they were getting. It was tested in several events, including CTF, several spars and pk/zones if i remember correctly.

I know I'm complaining a lot about the serverside HD, primarily because I have no clue where I'm going to be hit because my ping will either go up or down. Both HD's suck quite honestly but at least you just had to adjust to Clientside. Some hits didnt count because most of us are american players and we lag so you can't expect to hit laggers quite easily.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

@Rufus: I just haven't seen that many people complain so much from other parties.

The list of people who complained was quite large (someone higher up had to of noticed something, because Nighty gave the go ahead to switch back). I complained, and I'm not in US, and I am on the verge of hating Rufus because every post he makes against the development of Classic is both ironic and hypocritical since he is sitting on a server with no plans on a release. He doesn't tell me what to do, or whatever you're trying to suggest there.

[Crimson2005]

Nah Mystic, the players just voted for change for the sake of change.

[BlackSolider]

@ Mystic. Ya I totally responded to what you said. Are you really that blind? You said I was "one of the people who complained about the HD". I said "I never said the HD was good, just stop *****ing at the devs for doing something you wanted." So ya, I clearly responded to it kthx.

@ Xaphan. What were the players expecting when they voted for clientside then? Surely the news about the occasional no-hits was out there.

[MysticX2X]

@Gladius: When have i asked you whether you thought the HD was good or not? I made the statement you were one of the people complaining it sucked and you're now telling people to back off the Developers.
@Xaphan: Ummmmmmmmmm, I'm sure most thought it was alright/better. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think when the poll was posted, there as an extra informational notice of some locations with clientside HD to test it out.
@Max: Yeah i know a lot of people complained, some not even US, but I was pointing out some more than others. Literally it was the US guild who complained after the monthly in 20 masses how they couldnt hit anyone. Literally it was the US guild who made the most posts here to take out Clientside. I don't even like the HD but i can just live with it. I lived with serverside for months...

[BlackSolider]

The people asked for clientside. They got a clientside HD. I don't know exactly what they were expecting. Maybe they didn't realize there would be a 'no-hit' issue with it. If thats the case, the people are stupid for uninformed voting. Maybe I'm wrong in the case that not all clientside HDs have this problem. I don't know enough about HDs to know that. What I do know is that IF the people knew about the 'no-hit' issue and voted for it anyways, they should NOT be *****ing about it.

IF the classic players wanted a new movement system and the dude made one, they should be happy that he DID make a new movement system. If the system sucks ass, then yes they can be mad at the system. But don't be mad at the dev for giving them something they wanted. Be mad that the movement system didn't work like it was advertised to.

Look. I have some standards. No, the HD is not that good at we have a right to be mad about it. But we shouldn't yell at Thor about it because he did give us what we asked for (which doesn't seem to happen often enough.) You can talk with thor about how to make it better, but DO NOT call thor a horrible dev or a bad worker just b/c the HD isn't perfect.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

The people asked for clientside. They got a clientside HD. I don't know exactly what they were expecting. Maybe they didn't realize there would be a 'no-hit' issue with it. If thats the case, the people are stupid for uninformed voting. Maybe I'm wrong in the case that not all clientside HDs have this problem.

You are wrong. Not all clientside HD has this problem.

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

I don't know enough about HDs to know that. What I do know is that IF the people knew about the 'no-hit' issue and voted for it anyways, they should NOT be *****ing about it.

Probably people who are unaware of how this stuff works, which is sounding like you. Their votes are pretty much null because they vote just to vote and want to be 'happy' with it just because it is released.

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

IF the classic players wanted a new movement system and the dude made one, they should be happy that he DID make a new movement system. If the system sucks ass, then yes they can be mad at the system. But don't be mad at the dev for giving them something they wanted. Be mad that the movement system didn't work like it was advertised to.

You're confused. No one is mad, they just don't like the HD. I can't speak for everyone, of course, but like I have said many, many times, people acknowledge that Thor worked hard on the HD. That doesn't excuse the fact it's bad, though.

[maximus_asinus]

I never once asked for Clientside. I asked for the default hit detection, or something that emulated it exactly. We have yet to get this.

Maybe I'm wrong in the case that not all clientside HDs have this problem.

A properly scripted one would not. Thor and Hell Raven have told me that there is ways to create a fully functional system, but are able to create one because of certain limitations which weren't fully explained to me.

[jorollychu]

the limitations are obviously in their coding skills maximus

[BlackSolider]

Ok then. If people asked for a clientside that works and got one that has a flaw that other clientsides don't, then they have a right to be pissed.

I don't know enough about HDs to know how "no-hit" flaw might be in one clientside and not in another.

But all I know is if people knew there was a flaw, asked for it anyways, then complained about it, they have no right to complain.

Apparently this is not the case so my bad.