Graal Kingdoms Economy

[scriptless]

Hello my name is Scriptless, some of you may know me from Graal Kingdoms. I have been playing graal since around late 2002 to early 2003.

I am here today because the economy on Graal Kingdoms seems to be suffering. Alot of you may be asking, how to fix this. I have a simple suggestion that seems to work out for everyone in the end.

<snip, not allowed to discuss bans on the forums>

<paraphrase what was said>
A lot of rich people have been banned with good items, I think the items remaining on their accounts should be evented off.
</paraphrase what was said>

I have talked to several players and staff on Graal kingdoms about this situation and many of them agree that because players are banned with rares the server should not be punished by the denial of items to the economy. I have Drakeero's support as an Events Master to help event these items off.

With this in mind I ask you all to please take the time to place your vote and make an impact on the server.

Thank you,
scriptless

[darkdragonslayer]

I Agree that these items should be given out via event, Though i dont know how much of an impact this would have on the economy. I think it would be part of the solution but there would be many other things that would need to be addressed to successfully fixed, as i dont want to just talk and not offer any solutions of my own, Ill throw this out there, one of the main problems with the economy seems to be the fact that no one considers diamonds to be useful, Why not create another use for diamonds other than Preparing Weapons (There are items that can be crafted that need diamonds but those are minimal and use a relatively small amount of diamonds in most case only 1) for example you could have craftable items such as Bracers and Hands that are otherwise only aquired by (Ecs, events (very rare items), and in the case of Marks alchemy). Obviously these wouldn't compare to those obtained by the methods above but would at the very least the chance for players to use an item of those types.

[scriptless]

Some of these items include but not limited to,

Marks
KJ Shield
MSoG
4 RoW's ( i only got 2 fingers dude :o )
Inferno Dagger ( i htink inferno sword too? )

In total over 23,000 diamonds in items. That is a massive impact.

Would anyone capable of listing a complet list of items on dbug/darkreign3 please do so?

[Gothika]

A profitable/useful alchemy recpeice that utilizes water of diamonds might be an idea.

[Craigus]

Sure lets have some old items we don't see anymore reintroduced, but I'm sure there are people in the GK management who could make good decisions on which items are not around anymore and what we lack, no need to search peoples old accounts tbh.

[Gothika]

If they were to be released again through events or whatever form of output. Surely it would be done slowly over a few years. You can just throw that kind of worth straight back into server all in one go. Then we'll have a totally new economical crisis.

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by Gothika

A profitable/useful alchemy recpeice that utilizes water of diamonds might be an idea.

I actually thought maybe EA's should have a Prepare Armour that takes use of diamonds to help lower diamond count and promote brutals being found in HH.

I also suggested that the HH be party controlled. Either 1 player or 1 party in at a time so that only trusted players can pick up there hard earned prizes.

I have many ideas that would help. No one takes any of them into consideration tho. So until, we the players, make a strong stand on what we want. Don't expect to see changes anytime soon!

Originally Posted by Craigus

Sure lets have some old items we don't see anymore reintroduced, but I'm sure there are people in the GK management who could make good decisions on which items are not around anymore and what we lack, no need to search peoples old accounts tbh.

Agreed! However, armour on banned account's tend to be already pre-enchanted. Which kinda helps with the lack of EA's on GK.

[nullify]

Bringing old items back into the already crippled economy wouldn't help at all. If the means to use all these (currently worthless) diamonds was created, THEN something might start getting better, rather than worse.

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by nullify

Bringing old items back into the already crippled economy wouldn't help at all. If the means to use all these (currently worthless) diamonds was created, THEN something might start getting better, rather than worse.

I sort-of agree. Diamonds seem to be a problem right now. That and leveling as I see it. But the point I am saying is that players seem to hord items now because they are more valuable then diamonds currently. This hurts other players since now all the "good" armour is taken.

I can understand if it's 2 or 3 sets of armour a player has but I have seen players drop at least 7-10 sets of armour on the Bomboria Trade centers. No wonder I can't find any items

So suggestions how to fix the economy may also be posted here as this is the main intent of my thread.

[MajinDragon]

I support this idea. I think a better solution to the availability of items would be to create more possibilities for players to obtain useful items through hard work but at this moment in time GK doesn't have the resources to do such a thing. So in the short term, re-distributing items which would otherwise be practically deleted would make desirable items more obtainable and hopefully increase the trading of rare items. At the moment people don't trade their useful rares often because there aren't any/many of them in the market.

Originally Posted by Gothika

If they were to be released again through events or whatever form of output. Surely it would be done slowly over a few years. You can just throw that kind of worth straight back into server all in one go. Then we'll have a totally new economical crisis.

You raise a very good point. Throwing everything in at one go wouldn't be intelligent. I think the best way to deal with this would be to accumulate all of the banned players' items and distribute them all slowly. GK could have a good year of rare events this way which would attract players, boost trading and confidence in trading rare items.

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by MajinDragon

You raise a very good point. Throwing everything in at one go wouldn't be intelligent. I think the best way to deal with this would be to accumulate all of the banned players' items and distribute them all slowly. GK could have a good year of rare events this way which would attract players, boost trading and confidence in trading rare items.

Yes, I was not suggesting all items be evented off all at once. That would cause chaos. But like MajinDragon said. These items have already been introduced to the game so it is not like were are all of a sudden adding items that should not exist but simply re-circulating them.

[MajinDragon]

Originally Posted by nullify

Bringing old items back into the already crippled economy wouldn't help at all. If the means to use all these (currently worthless) diamonds was created, THEN something might start getting better, rather than worse.

Diamonds really shouldn't be the issue here. Platinum is the true currency. Diamonds only serve the purpose of prepping items, and i would hope, to also be used in jewelry craft.

Platinum, and all coins, needs to be made weightless, or a very lightweight alternative (for those who hold onto millions) needs to be introduced, and not in the form of a substitute e.g. Diamonds. In the form of a new coin/note that is accepted by npc's.

[Rufus]

Are there really that many banned players on Kingdoms with good items? It could also be that perhaps they were obtained illegitimately, pertaining to the reason they were banned in the first place.

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Are there really that many banned players on Kingdoms with good items? It could also be that perhaps they were obtained illegitimately, pertaining to the reason they were banned in the first place.

Yes there are possibly millions of diamonds in banned items anywere from hundreds of event coins to 1 of a kind items. And no they were obtained legit and the accounts were banned usually for arguing with staff, abusing bugs not directly related to wealth such as speed and killing people and so on.

I tried to ask Tig to list just items off dbug and darkreign3 but I do not think he is capable of doing this even. This is something Stefan himself might have to take part in.

Originally Posted by MajinDragon

Diamonds really shouldn't be the issue here. Platinum is the true currency. Diamonds only serve the purpose of prepping items, and i would hope, to also be used in jewelry craft.

Platinum, and all coins, needs to be made weightless, or a very lightweight alternative (for those who hold onto millions) needs to be introduced, and not in the form of a substitute e.g. Diamonds. In the form of a new coin/note that is accepted by npc's.

Yes, I would like platinum coins to be the currency mainly used however who sets the value of items? I sell a diamond to a shop and get like 10 plat or sell to a player for 500 plat. If a RoW back in the day when dbug and darkreign3 were banned was 500 diamonds. That is aprox 500^2 platinum coins to carry which amounts to 250,000 platinum coins which is, I think, to much for a player to carry without using the trade table bug to exceed the maximum weight limit. And no I am not advocating the use of this bug at all. I should be fixed but seems to be ignored as if it may be intended to do this?

[MajinDragon]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Are there really that many banned players on Kingdoms with good items? It could also be that perhaps they were obtained illegitimately, pertaining to the reason they were banned in the first place.

Usually if they were obtained illegitimately it wasn't that the items were illegal. Example: A bug is abused to spawn millions of platinum coins which are used to buy these rares. The abuser is banned but has obtained rares with the platinum. The plat is in circulation, but the rares are effectively deleted. This is a problem because it is the plat that should be removed and not the items.

The banned player is already punished by being banned. The argument here is that the server should not be punished by being denied the players items which are banned along with them.

[DustyPorViva]

Why should their diamonds be handed out? Why can't people just earn their own diamonds? As for rare items, they're out-of-circulation, they shouldn't have any effect on the current economy.

This sounds less about the economy and more about people just wanting rare items.

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by MajinDragon

Usually if they were obtained illegitimately it wasn't that the items were illegal. Example: A bug is abused to spawn millions of platinum coins which are used to buy these rares. The abuser is banned but has obtained rares with the platinum. The plat is in circulation, but the rares are effectively deleted. This is a problem because it is the plat that should be removed and not the items.

The banned player is already punished by being banned. The argument here is that the server should not be punished by being denied the players items which are banned along with them.

I agree to some point but disagree to another extend. Some players would abuse a million plat bug to force stock in shops large quantities of items. This should be illegal, were-as buying from players who already have them in circulation should be legal items (not plat). And items obtained this way should be returned to the person who bought them upon the buyers ban.

This would be a problem because it happens so often it would be a mess to find out who what item belongs to which is why I recommended if the plat that was used to purchase said items from other players be kept so should the item's.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Why should their diamonds be handed out? Why can't people just earn their own diamonds? As for rare items, they're out-of-circulation, they shouldn't have any effect on the current economy.

This sounds less about the economy and more about people just wanting rare items.

Sir, I would like you to even try and buy MSoG. I had them and since they are so rare they are no longer sold (except by Klay for unreasonable amounts). And lets not even try and talk about the Inferno Dagger.

Any time you take an item out of the game it has an impact. Lets remove Blood Rings all together and see what happens among the community? I can assure you players would not be happy.

And you are sort-of right. Yes we ALL not just me, want rare items. The economy needs these rare items but when players hord them because that's what they decide is main currency because of the plat, diamonds, and brutals as unacceptable currency. This is the only logical way to fix it. Re distribute already existing, but otherwise inaccessible items.

The problem is the only way to obtain a rare item is with another rare item which poses many problems. Do you not see this when you login? No one trades items for Diamonds, Plat or even Brutals anymore so if you want a good item you need a good item. Good way to put it is, this is the "man" keeping all of us including new members from ever gaining any reasonable power against monsters even.

[Drakeero]

Originally Posted by scriptless

Hello my name is Scriptless, some of you may know me from Graal Kingdoms. I have been playing graal since around late 2002 to early 2003.

I am here today because the economy on Graal Kingdoms seems to be suffering. Alot of you may be asking, how to fix this. I have a simple suggestion that seems to work out for everyone in the end.

<snip, not allowed to discuss bans on the forums>

<paraphrase what was said>
A lot of rich people have been banned with good items, I think the items remaining on their accounts should be evented off.
</paraphrase what was said>

I have talked to several players and staff on Graal kingdoms about this situation and many of them agree that because players are banned with rares the server should not be punished by the denial of items to the economy. I have Drakeero's support as an Events Master to help event these items off.

With this in mind I ask you all to please take the time to place your vote and make an impact on the server.

Thank you,
scriptless

Just to clarify my support. If you wanted to donate your items from your banned account in addition to whatever we the EM's get to event normally, I would support that. However, I do not feel as if people's banned accounts should be randomly ransacked for items.

I have to vote no for the poll.

[scriptless]

<Discussing bans on the forums is not allowed>

My point seems to make logic because if there are 5 RoW's on the server and I posess 4 of them and I get banned should it be the job of the EM's to say, ok who had RoW's.. oh we have 1 left? Lets event 4 more off?

It would just be simpler that accounts that are permanently banned be evented off. I am not justifying that we ransack all banned accounts. Not at all but when an account is banned for the rest of your life or until Graal officially loses its customers and goes bankrupt because of poor management What is the point of depriving the rest of the server from these items simply because another player messed up?

To be completely fair on this let me also argue the OTHER side saying why I think these items should NOT be re-evented off.

Are Event Masters eventing off excess of items because people are hording them and because they know people are being banned with rare items to compensate the server for its lost items due to an unfortunate event (being banned)? If so I would like to know how it is being regulated because I am highly interested in learning such.

This is the only way I see fit for items to remain on banned accounts. Lets just remove Blood Rings all together then? And see if it not has an impact? I know Klay would get bent out of shape just like Drako (darkreign3) did when his items were banned.

[seanthien]

Way too long for me to read at the moment, but I read a few and I feel I should input my thoughts.

Originally Posted by Gothika

If they were to be released again through events or whatever form of output. Surely it would be done slowly over a few years. You can just throw that kind of worth straight back into server all in one go. Then we'll have a totally new economical crisis.

Very good point. Not to mention, I'd really hate to be banned and come back and what?! My items are gone? Hmph, something wouldn't be right. Even if that doesn't happen, there should be better ways. Farming a boss monster for example.

Most games are really only fun because of pvp and/or farming gear. GK is missing pretty much a chunk of one (Pvp) and missing the other whole concept in general. A part of the economy problem is because nothing rare can actually be acquired via diamonds. No one in their right mind, even before we had massive loads of diamonds would sell something rares for just diamonds. (because this goes back to the problem of them serving no purpose besides prepping). All/most of these should be drops from some sort of monster at a extremely low rate.

[Supaman771]

Me 4 fre godleh itenz plox.

Summary of this thread in 1 word, 1 number, and 4 common nooby words.
Enjoy!

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by scriptless

Sir, I would like you to even try and buy MSoG. I had them and since they are so rare they are no longer sold (except by Klay for unreasonable amounts). And lets not even try and talk about the Inferno Dagger.

Any time you take an item out of the game it has an impact. Lets remove Blood Rings all together and see what happens among the community? I can assure you players would not be happy.

And you are sort-of right. Yes we ALL not just me, want rare items. The economy needs these rare items but when players hord them because that's what they decide is main currency because of the plat, diamonds, and brutals as unacceptable currency. This is the only logical way to fix it. Re distribute already existing, but otherwise inaccessible items.

The problem is the only way to obtain a rare item is with another rare item which poses many problems. Do you not see this when you login? No one trades items for Diamonds, Plat or even Brutals anymore so if you want a good item you need a good item. Good way to put it is, this is the "man" keeping all of us including new members from ever gaining any reasonable power against monsters even.

What difference does it make? Usually one person has a rare item and will not sell it anyways. It does not directly effect the economy. It does not stagnate the economy. The playerbase should be more fluid and change with the environment instead of worrying about rare items no one can access. If a person was banned a year ago with a single rare item that no one else has, why should any one on the server currently care? It doesn't effect gameplay, it doesn't effect economy, it is essentially non-existent and players should treat it that way. If there is a shortage of 'rarity' in the economy, then maybe the staff needs to start sprucing stuff up again.

I don't play GK but I just don't see how the pile of stuff on an essentially dead account has any bearing on what's going on now. Do you think if these accounts weren't banned the economy would be okay right now?

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by seanthien

Way too long for me to read at the moment, but I read a few and I feel I should input my thoughts.


Very good point. Not to mention, I'd really hate to be banned and come back and what?! My items are gone? Hmph, something wouldn't be right. Even if that doesn't happen, there should be better ways. Farming a boss monster for example.

Most games are really only fun because of pvp and/or farming gear. GK is missing pretty much a chunk of one (Pvp) and missing the other whole concept in general. A part of the economy problem is because nothing rare can actually be acquired via diamonds. No one in their right mind, even before we had massive loads of diamonds would sell something rares for just diamonds. (because this goes back to the problem of them serving no purpose besides prepping). All/most of these should be drops from some sort of monster at a extremely low rate.

Read Title. Perm. Bans only. Ban's are for punishing players not the entire server. How would you like one day to wake up banned for no reason at all. And not have your items back for the rest of your life only to play again on a new account to have the prices jacked up now that there are fewer of the item YOU ALREADY HAVE!!!! Make any sense?

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

What difference does it make? Usually one person has a rare item and will not sell it anyways. It does not directly effect the economy. It does not stagnate the economy. The playerbase should be more fluid and change with the environment instead of worrying about rare items no one can access. If a person was banned a year ago with a single rare item that no one else has, why should any one on the server currently care? It doesn't effect gameplay, it doesn't effect economy, it is essentially non-existent and players should treat it that way. If there is a shortage of 'rarity' in the economy, then maybe the staff needs to start sprucing stuff up again.

I don't play GK but I just don't see how the pile of stuff on an essentially dead account has any bearing on what's going on now. Do you think if these accounts weren't banned the economy would be okay right now?

It's makes a huge difference. The economy is supply and demand. When you illegaly ban the supply demand is going to go up. When you flood the market with diamonds you also take away the supply.

Dusty, this is the issue. Staff felt items NEEDED released into the economy so they did so. These players obtained massive piles of items and then got banned. If staff felt the items NEEDED released then they should STAY released. When a player is banned for life there goes there items. I think Stefan once addressed this as a problem and look what happened to the current subscription system with gerlats. You guys were to chicken to make a stance then and you got smacked with insane subscription costs. Now you guys are about to make the SAME mistake twice. Good luck everyone because I do not play GK for it's items but I do think everyone deserves a fair shot at them.

When you ban rich players you only make the non-banned rich, RICHER!!! And the poor poorer. Which tends to drive new customers away and existing customers too. Today is my last day of Gold subscription and because of the problems on GK I am not going to be re-upgrading anytime soon. You can all explain to Stefan why he just lost $50 because I didn't repay to play a game that is currently failing to maintain a decent or respectable player base.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by scriptless

God. Do I need to draw a Picture? Because I will load MS Paint up and show you what happens to Supply And Demand when you take the supply away. If any of you actually take a college History Class you will learn history repeats itself and choosing the same method of failure just flat out does not work.

You mean there have been events in history where rich people were banned from real-life and economies crashed?

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

You mean there have been events in history where rich people were banned from real-life and economies crashed?

This should help. Stop making rich people richer by illegally banning people and if you are to do so recirculate the items to be fair on other players. And actually yes many games have failed because players have quit after similar situations. Sadly!

And this would be cool if that player did not use his upper hand to obtain even more items in which to do the exact same thing. Players do not need 10 different sets of armour simple bvecause he values armour as a more stable currency then diamonds, brutals or maps.

Sorry I actually mislead everyone in this diagram. The top is suspose to be 3,000 and 2,000 diamonds for a TOTAL OF 5,000 diamonds. Once the player with 2 gets banned expect to pay 6,000 diamonds EACH for the item. Now we all know GK only lets you wear 2 rings at a time, why would a player need to HORD 3 items? Simply because GK allowed him to get rich fast.

[fowlplay4]

Dealing with the items that are gone forever on banned accounts is hardly a solution to the problem of the extreme rarity of items on Kingdoms, they need to release more content and have things actually obtainable for those who aren't willing to U-- I mean organize trades over AIM.

[Supaman771]

Honestly, if you want to be rewarded with free **** every time you complain go play another game.

Banning is legal, why else would it be there.

If someone has items that rare and they manage to get banned kudos to the other person with them, may god help them hoard to make the babies like you quit.

-Requesting end of thread/poll on the grounds this kid is complaining about not being given free **** and people are stupid enough to spite on his rage and draw me to read new posts-

[Draenin]

"Hey admins, make me richer by stealing items off the accounts of banned players and eventing them off. LOLOLOL"

[scriptless]

Well you guys have sealed the faith of GK. Thank you all. And Banning is there for a reason yes but not for staff to abuse and illegally Yes ILLEGALLY ban players to make themselves richer. No I do NOT want any of my EARNED items back. I would just like the economy to be more fair but since you guys cant comprehend this. I will make it my soul mission to help HURT the economy by helping HORD items. Better not sell me anything good it will no longer exist in the game. Then you guys can cry your way on down to the noob island and be one of them.

[DustyPorViva]

My major problem with this, economic dribble aside, is that permabans are not always permanent. There have been many occasions where someone has been permabanned and has pleaded and gotten unbanned. No one deserves to come back, even after a year or two, from a permaban to see their inventory emptied regardless of the crime(unless of course they weren't legit... and in that case they should be removed from circulation totally).

I was only arguing about the economic side because I still don't see the repercussion of these out-of-circulation items on the economy, regardless of your arrogant attitude and drawings. There are going to be rare items. Just because someone else has them and you don't, and is going to charge an insanely high price for them, doesn't mean the economy is broken. In that regard introducing a single unique item to a person who plays every day is going to have the very same effect. The world isn't fair, and neither is playing online. People are going to have better stuff and you're not always going to be able to get it. And if there is a problem with such a thing, staff needs to get out there and introduce the items in a legit way, much like how the person got it in the first place, rather than taking them from someone else.

If staff is abusing bans to make themselves richer, there is a much larger problem here that needs to be addressed.

[DustyPorViva]

You seem to be the one having a hissy fit here because people don't agree with you.

[scriptless]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

You seem to be the one having a hissy fit here because people don't agree with you.

I argue because you guys do not understand what I am talking about. You sire need to read the posts because I argued both sides. Like I said come back when you have reasonable intelligence to argue. End of discussion.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by scriptless

I argue because you guys do not understand what I am talking about. You sire need to read the posts because I argued both sides. Like I said come back when you have reasonable intelligence to argue. End of discussion.

No; you argue. I counter-argue. You insult. I counter-argue again. You whine. I still counter-argue and you resort back to insults. Just because I don't agree with you don't mean I don't understand.

All your posts seem to be are the ramblings of someone with an ulterior motive.

[Drakeero]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

No; you argue. I counter-argue. You insult. I counter-argue again. You whine. I still counter-argue and you resort back to insults. Just because I don't agree with you don't mean I don't understand.

All your posts seem to be are the ramblings of someone with an ulterior motive. You never once stated in the original post that you had a permabanned account with rare items on it. This whole idea is just a way to try to reclaim all of your banned items. And given that you were banned by Stefan and your attitude in this thread, I don't think it'd be a far-fetched assumption to say that your ban was well-deserved.

A good EM would make sure that his items don't "accidentally slip" back to him. If he wants to try to buy them back from other players after they win them, why not? He's earning them back legitimately by buying them from other players.

I for one volunteer to event them off because I'm not exactly going to raffle these away. I'd rather make people work for them.

[Tigairius]

If I have to edit another post in this thread regarding the discussion of bans I will close the thread. Just try to stick to the rules.

[Tigairius]

Hypothetical: There is a corrupt GP on GK. They are poor. They don't really like some of the richer people. Wouldn't this give them more incentive to ban those richer people at the first chance they get so that they might have a chance at their items?

Bans, especially permanent ones, need to be decided as fairly as possible.

[MajinDragon]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Hypothetical: There is a corrupt GP on GK. They are poor. They don't really like some of the richer people. Wouldn't this give them more incentive to ban those richer people at the first chance they get so that they might have a chance at their items?

But that raises a good point.

This overall stems back to the availability of items. Because even low-mid-level gear is un-craftable/obtainable the server is reliant on events or seasonal events for these items. When very rich players are banned or quit their items, usually useful rares, disappear. This could be solved if items were eventted more or if gk had the infrastructure needed to keep items in steady flow.

[StormYs]

I see no point in this, your idea is to take the rare items off ppl that were perma banned, ok.
So what you say is that duo to the fact of having more rares in game this would balance this economy? I disagree, as said above me, items should become easier available for everyone.

Imagine, what if someone would quit that had obtained such a rare item? This would reduce the circulation of items again making it harder and harder to obtainr are items as ppl quit, so this method would only (and only by little) effect the economy on short term, but in the long term it would have no effect.

[MajinDragon]

Originally Posted by StormYs

I see no point in this, your idea is to take the rare items off ppl that were perma banned, ok.
So what you say is that duo to the fact of having more rares in game this would balance this economy? I disagree, as said above me, items should become easier available for everyone.

Imagine, what if someone would quit that had obtained such a rare item? This would reduce the circulation of items again making it harder and harder to obtainr are items as ppl quit, so this method would only (and only by little) effect the economy on short term, but in the long term it would have no effect.

It can be argued that GK requires a short-term sollution as there are no signs of any long-term solutions being implimented, what with Q4 being abandoned and development being top secret.

[StormYs]

As I said even on short terms this method would not suffice enough.
The reason for this is because there are a lot of rich people that still play gk, so if a new gk player obtains such a rare item what would happen? The rich will buy it off the new guys and so hoard the items.
Same thing happened yesterday or so, I logged onto GK today and heard "Tig evented some shields yesterday, some new guy won a forest shield but he sold it for crappy items".

Thus this method wouldn't have that much of a effect on the economy.

Edit: I am not saying that I disapprove of this idea but it's just that it wouldn't have a significant impact on the current economy.