Who do you respect the most on Graal?

[Door]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I really agree with pretty much everything you said here. I think you bring up incredible points, a lot of which intertwine with my own thoughts as well. The only difference is the negativity, and I understand your viewpoint. Honestly, I think some negativity is important because it can keep people in line, but too much negativity is very demotivating. This is where it becomes a problem.

Believe me, believe everyone who is an administrator under Stefan and unixmad, we understand that there are a lot of issues. We are not just turning a blind eye to the situation, and we try everything in our power to make things better. However, it has been an up-hill struggle, and this is also why I have been perhaps a bit too short tempered with the complainers lately. We are all fighting this, not just you guys.

Like I said in mine, we tried being positive for a long time. Things have only gotten worse. I think really you have no defense to what I said in that post at all, since the only points you brought up are
A. We are too negative (already addressed it in my earlier post and here), and
B. You know all this already.

Oh?

You..
You know all of what I said already? Wow. Well thanks for confirming everything that I just said. You know it all already, yet you're 'trying to make things better' by telling us to shut up and be happy with the rubbish that is Graal?

As far as I'm concerned, you and the other PWAs deserve of a lot more respect than Stefan and Unixmad do. Or at least you would, if you weren't acting as their brownshirts. That's all I see right now, and in my opinion, your post says it almost outright. You knew all of what I said already. You agree with everything but my negativity, which has already been explained a million times--it's the only thing we have left to try, after working so hard to be positive for so long. All of this, yet you still defend shutting us up, telling us that our complaints are invalid, that we needn't be negative, that we shouldn't speak badly about the people who are taking our money and doing absolutely nothing to earn it.

So what if we don't want to develop? We're not paying to do the work for Stefan and Unixmad, we're paying to play a game. We shouldn't have to change it at all to be happy with it. We should definitely never be expected to do the advertising, make all the content, and design a website for the game we're paying to play.

People who make servers should not be paying for them at all. They are bringing in new players and thus revenue to Cyberjoueurs, so they should be welcomed to develop and perhaps even given a cut, if this was set up fairly. People who devote their time and money to this game without showing their distaste for how unfair it is are not saints, however. Like you Tig, these players only encourage and by allowing it to happen and even funding it. Go ahead and keep paying those two up at the top to do nothing, and let's see how soon they get a change of heart and decide to suddenly start working for what they earn.

No updates, no gratitude, they don't even show themselves on the forum.

Didn't you say something about how you wanted a new website design in order to inspire Stefan to become involved again or something along those lines? This coming from a high admin in the game, so I trust your word there. Sounds like perhaps even you are coming to the end of your line, and I don't blame you there at all. I think it's time that we step back and say that we won't be paying anymore when it is totally unfair. Rather than advertising the game to get in new ignorant victims, we should be telling them to stay away, boycotting. That is what having a free market is all about.

But instead we just stay here and complain, because we complainers are too good-natured to use such aggressive tactics, even though they certainly are more called-for than what we do now.

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Agreed.

Ditto for you, toots.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Door

Like I said in mine, we tried being positive for a long time. Things have only gotten worse. I think really you have no defense to what I said in that post at all, since the only points you brought up are
A. We are too negative (already addressed it in my earlier post and here), and
B. You know all this already.

Oh?

You..
You know all of what I said already? Wow. Well thanks for confirming everything that I just said. You know it all already, yet you're 'trying to make things better' by telling us to shut up and be happy with the rubbish that is Graal?

As far as I'm concerned, you and the other PWAs deserve of a lot more respect than Stefan and Unixmad do. Or at least you would, if you weren't acting as their brownshirts. That's all I see right now, and in my opinion, your post says it almost outright. You knew all of what I said already. You agree with everything but my negativity, which has already been explained a million times--it's the only thing we have left to try, after working so hard to be positive for so long. All of this, yet you still defend shutting us up, telling us that our complaints are invalid, that we needn't be negative, that we shouldn't speak badly about the people who are taking our money and doing absolutely nothing to earn it.

So what if we don't want to develop? We're not paying to do the work for Stefan and Unixmad, we're paying to play a game. We shouldn't have to change it at all to be happy with it. We should definitely never be expected to do the advertising, make all the content, and design a website for the game we're paying to play.

People who make servers should not be paying for them at all. They are bringing in new players and thus revenue to Cyberjoueurs, so they should be welcomed to develop and perhaps even given a cut, if this was set up fairly. People who devote their time and money to this game without showing their distaste for how unfair it is are not saints, however. Like you Tig, these players only encourage and by allowing it to happen and even funding it. Go ahead and keep paying those two up at the top to do nothing, and let's see how soon they get a change of heart and decide to suddenly start working for what they earn.

No updates, no gratitude, they don't even show themselves on the forum.

Didn't you say something about how you wanted a new website design in order to inspire Stefan to become involved again or something along those lines? This coming from a high admin in the game, so I trust your word there. Sounds like perhaps even you are coming to the end of your line, and I don't blame you there at all. I think it's time that we step back and say that we won't be paying anymore when it is totally unfair. Rather than advertising the game to get in new ignorant victims, we should be telling them to stay away, boycotting. That is what having a free market is all about.

But instead we just stay here and complain, because we complainers are too good-natured to use such aggressive tactics, even though they certainly are more called-for than what we do now.



Ditto for you, toots.

oh shut up; long diatribes and rants about "what should be done" don't work on who you are actually trying to talk too, and these guys have heard it too many times for it to be repeated. the only thing you can tell the moderators and PWA and other types of global staff is that unless they quit doing their job and no one steps in to do it for them, then CJ and all the other "higher ups" are not going to fix anything. they won't step in and create content for something they don't get a lot of revenue from, and frankly i bet has caused them more trouble than they asked for both on the internet and in real life

until everyone stops doing the work, and instead create some sort of demand for action from them, we will see more of the same. of course the only way it could get any worse is if they close down the game entirely

or this thread gets closed and replies deleted and everything is covered up; that's usually what happens

[Door]

Originally Posted by Hiro

oh shut up; long diatribes and rants about "what should be done" don't work on who you are actually trying to talk too, and these guys have heard it too many times for it to be repeated. the only thing you can tell the moderators and PWA and other types of global staff is that unless they quit doing their job and no one steps in to do it for them, then CJ and all the other "higher ups" are not going to fix anything. they won't step in and create content for something they don't get a lot of revenue from, and frankly i bet has caused them more trouble than they asked for both on the internet and in real life

until everyone stops doing the work, and instead create some sort of demand for action from them, we will see more of the same. of course the only way it could get any worse is if they close down the game entirely

or this thread gets closed and replies deleted and everything is covered up; that's usually what happens

Have a sense of self-empowerment, man! We can and do make a difference in this game all the time. In fact we the players are the only ones who do! So it's our duty to ourselves and to the game itself to do our best to improve it. If long diatribes and rants about "what should be done" are all that you can manage, why not do them?

I'm not much for programming or art, for management or marketing.. but I am good with words (at least I think so), and I think that, whatever it is you're good at, you should always use it to make a difference or at least try to.

This is life, it's not some kind of blob that just shifts us through one moment to the next. It's something we are constantly changing and affecting ourselves. If you just sit back and let things be controlled by the few on top who know how to make it work for themselves, then you're not only giving yourself the short end of the stick, but all your peers and comrades as well. Stand up for what you know is right, regardless of how little you can say or do. Every little bit counts, and with enough effort from everyone, we can make a HUGE difference here!

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Door

Have a sense of self-empowerment, man! We can and do make a difference in this game all the time. In fact we the players are the only ones who do! So it's our duty to ourselves and to the game itself to do our best to improve it. If long diatribes and rants about "what should be done" are all that you can manage, why not do them?

I'm not much for programming or art, for management or marketing.. but I am good with words (at least I think so), and I think that, whatever it is you're good at, you should always use it to make a difference or at least try to.

This is life, it's not some kind of blob that just shifts us through one moment to the next. It's something we are constantly changing and affecting ourselves. If you just sit back and let things be controlled by the few on top who know how to make it work for themselves, then you're not only giving yourself the short end of the stick, but all your peers and comrades as well. Stand up for what you know is right, regardless of how little you can say or do. Every little bit counts, and with enough effort from everyone, we can make a HUGE difference here!

i've been silenced from doing so on more than just one occasion i can think of. the fact is, it's masses of players that make the difference, not just one or even a couple. we can all agree and talk about things, sure, but once mass action takes place to hurt the powers that be in a place that forces them to act, and the action isn't bottle-necked by some different form of "player's" opinions and goals, then we aren't going to get any answers. i'm not even sure they listen to their global staff on these issues, and they're their global ****ing staff |8

i agree with you on all points about graal, and on all points about action. but, as you may have read in this thread, i'm not a respected person on the forums, nor are many people; only a few are well known throughout graal and have access to the types of floors to actually discuss these issues with people who run the game, and they are not apart of the action we players want to see, and they agree with us

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Hiro

only a few are well known throughout graal and have access to the types of floors to actually discuss these issues with people who run the game, and they are not apart of the action we players want to see, and they agree with us

Right, because we just sit around and do nothing....

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Right, because we just sit around and do nothing....

no, you put forth action and receive nothing - it's much, much worse

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Door... I can say with utmost confidence, that any major form of boycotting would get Graal shut down faster than we would have time to come on the forums and complain the boycott not working. This is why, for that reason, that is not an option for improving Graal.

exactly, but it seems to be one of a few choices that would produce results, but it's also shooting ourselves in the foot. the current silence will just continue otherwise, but doing something can result in the game being erased

[Door]

Originally Posted by Hiro

i've been silenced from doing so on more than just one occasion i can think of. the fact is, it's masses of players that make the difference, not just one or even a couple. we can all agree and talk about things, sure, but once mass action takes place to hurt the powers that be in a place that forces them to act, and the action isn't bottle-necked by some different form of "player's" opinions and goals, then we aren't going to get any answers. i'm not even sure they listen to their global staff on these issues, and they're their global ****ing staff |8

i agree with you on all points about graal, and on all points about action. but, as you may have read in this thread, i'm not a respected person on the forums, nor are many people; only a few are well known throughout graal and have access to the types of floors to actually discuss these issues with people who run the game, and they are not apart of the action we players want to see, and they agree with us

Well not to be rude at all, cuz I totally appreciate any and all agreement, but right now you are part of the effort to stop players from getting together in mass. I know exactly ywhat you mean, and I agree, but it doesn't just happen by itself. Just as the description suggests, everyone needs to pitch in, everyone needs to be positive and contribute in some way, whatever way they can manage.

C'mon man, hop on the bandwagon! For once it's not to mock someone or spread a joke meme, it's to actually attempt at making a real difference for real people, including you and me.

WE CAN DO THIS, GUYS!

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Door

boycotting.

Door... I can say with utmost confidence, that any major form of boycotting would get Graal shut down faster than we would have time to come on the forums and complain the boycott not working. This is why, for that reason, that is not an option for improving Graal.

[Door]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Door... I can say with utmost confidence, that any major form of boycotting would get Graal shut down faster than we would have time to come on the forums and complain the boycott not working. This is why, for that reason, that is not an option for improving Graal.

Hey you're probably right about that, so I guess boycotting might be a little too extreme for the people who love Graal. But that just shows how lazy, selfish, and unwilling to improve they truly are. Graal has become nothing but money, they seem to show little interest in it, and we players have to hold it together and try to glue the pieces back on. And pay to do so.

So yeah, go ahead and keep supporting and defending that buddy, or maybe we can work toward a better solution, like potentially purchasing the rights to Graal. God knows we do a better job managing it right now than the rotten ones who own it, even though they consistently hold us back by taking our money and putting a huge wall of bureaucracy in our way of any major decisions.

[Mark Sir Link]

I can't believe people think that Stefan and Unixmad are running Graal at personal loss. If that was the case I think they might actually give a **** about it and work on it because to do so means they have some sort of love of the game as well.

It's painfully obvious they're yielding some profit and are perfectly content to leave the game in the mired **** hole it is because people are still willing to close their eyes and waste their money so that CJ can profit hand over fist.


It's become brutally evident that just asking for improvements isn't enough, so it's pretty evident that the only option left to a consumer actually seeking improvement is to speak with the power of the purse rather than with the diatribes of empty threats and angry words.

[Curt1zzle]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

I can't believe people think that Stefan and Unixmad are running Graal at personal loss. If that was the case I think they might actually give a **** about it and work on it because to do so means they have some sort of love of the game as well.

It's painfully obvious they're yielding some profit and are perfectly content to leave the game in the mired **** hole it is because people are still willing to close their eyes and waste their money so that CJ can profit hand over fist.


It's become brutally evident that just asking for improvements isn't enough, so it's pretty evident that the only option left to a consumer actually seeking improvement is to speak with the power of the purse rather than with the diatribes of empty threats and angry words.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

I can't believe people think that Stefan and Unixmad are running Graal at personal loss. If that was the case I think they might actually give a **** about it and work on it because to do so means they have some sort of love of the game as well.

It's painfully obvious they're yielding some profit and are perfectly content to leave the game in the mired **** hole it is because people are still willing to close their eyes and waste their money so that CJ can profit hand over fist.


It's become brutally evident that just asking for improvements isn't enough, so it's pretty evident that the only option left to a consumer actually seeking improvement is to speak with the power of the purse rather than with the diatribes of empty threats and angry words.

yea because they gain so much right? i bet the bomb threats they received a couple years ago really motivated them to work. i bet they drive really fancy cars and lounge about all day because of the profits they receive from graal. while i don't wish to paraphrase, stefan implied that graal was being run personally, and maybe even at a marginal loss, especially when compared to their other projects which are much more economically beneficial. the only thing "attacking their purse" would do would push them to close down the game, which i hope is not the goal here

and in relation to tig/door/rufus, anyone who bothers to log onto graal and even just idle for more than 5 minutes contributes more to graal than the people who just post on the forums. it's the small community of sparrers, guilds, and whatever you wanna call the people who play zodiac and era, that keep the game up, not the forum participants or PWA. i am much more of a "complainer" and am much more rude on the forums than i am to people who actually go on graal, because it's you guys (and i did not mean to direct that personally at tig/rufus/door) who don't really deserve the respect and need the complaining, not them.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Hiro

yea because they gain so much right? i bet the bomb threats they received a couple years ago really motivated them to work. i bet they drive really fancy cars and lounge about all day because of the profits they receive from graal. while i don't wish to paraphrase, stefan implied that graal was being run personally, and maybe even at a marginal loss, especially when compared to their other projects which are much more economically beneficial. the only thing "attacking their purse" would do would push them to close down the game, which i hope is not the goal here

Could you maybe try for like 20 seconds to turn down the stupid? There is obviously some sort of financial benefit from running Graal still, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. It's obvious this isn't some pet project they're keeping alive because they're passionate about it because they DON'T WORK ON IT AT ALL.

Therefore, only two plausible scenarios exist for why Graal continues running and those 2 scenarios are:

A.) They're turning a profit from the game.

B.) They suffer several forms of mental disease.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Door... I can say with utmost confidence, that any major form of boycotting would get Graal shut down faster than we would have time to come on the forums and complain the boycott not working. This is why, for that reason, that is not an option for improving Graal.

You're conveniently not responding to Door when she's brought the discussion back to her original point, and have decided to focus on things that come across as extreme when they've only really been an example. Because it's only a hypothetical example and not even close to something that is happening in the reality, you should be able to see that "writ[ing] people off" simply because they complain is a completely ignorant statement to make and that is what this entire discussion has been about. Those people are the ones that are keeping this game alive, not the people who pretend as though everything is fine and dandy. At least these people are still here, still trying and optimistic that change could potentially happen, but because they're a little more realistic about their views of the game that's suddenly a bad thing

Yeah, no.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

You're conveniently not responding to Door when she's brought the discussion back to her original point, and have decided to focus on things that come across as extreme when they've only really been an example. Because it's only a hypothetical example and not even close to something that is happening in the reality, you should be able to see that "writ[ing] people off" simply because they complain is a completely ignorant statement to make and that is what this entire discussion has been about. Those people are the ones that are keeping this game alive, not the people who pretend as though everything is fine and dandy. At least these people are still here, still trying and optimistic that change could potentially happen, but because they're a little more realistic about their views of the game that's suddenly a bad thing

Yeah, no.

I already addressed Door's main points in a previous post. I don't see a reason to do it again. I told her I agree with most of her points.

Also, I already said that negativity is good until it gets too excessive, because then it is just demotivating. Do you really think that constantly nagging will really fix something? It really won't. You guys have been doing it for a while now and nothing has changed. Instead, you've just made it harder to get things done because you could be helping, but you're not.

Do not twist my words around either, I only "write people off" who constantly complain, not people who complain. There is a large difference.

If you and your friends would focus as much attention to Bomy Island as you do to complaining, we might just have a good "new" server to play for Graal.

[Door]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I already addressed Door's main points in a previous post. I don't see a reason to do it again. I told her I agree with most of her points.

Also, I already said that negativity is good until it gets too excessive, because then it is just demotivating. Do you really think that constantly nagging will really fix something? It really won't. You guys have been doing it for a while now and nothing has changed. Instead, you've just made it harder to get things done because you could be helping, but you're not.

Do not twist my words around either, I only "write people off" who constantly complain, not people who complain. There is a large difference.

If you and your friends would focus as much attention to Bomy Island as you do to complaining, we might just have a good "new" server to play for Graal.

Tigairius uses Defense Curl! Tigairius is out of moves! Tigairius struggles in a panic!

gj lashing out to change the subject away from your own complete and utter inability to defend your actions against everything I said. Yeah, you agreed with me, yeah, you said I'm too negative. Then I told you exactly what I think that means, and you are completely ignoring it just like Rufus said. At least fall gracefully.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I already addressed Door's main points in a previous post. I don't see a reason to do it again. I told her I agree with most of her points.

Yeah okay, you agreed with points that contradict most of your actions and attitude towards people? What cop-out. It's pretty obvious you just lack of a viable response for what she said.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Also, I already said that negativity is good until it gets too excessive, because then it is just demotivating. Do you really think that constantly nagging will really fix something? It really won't. You guys have been doing it for a while now and nothing has changed. Instead, you've just made it harder to get things done because you could be helping, but you're not.

If people aren't happy, they're either going to up and leave or resort to complaining about it. That is the nature of a consumer. Excessive problems? Excessive nagging.

You're not helping anything at all with your faux-ideals. When you go out of your way to do something for someone else they might appreciate it; do everything for that someone else and they'll end up taking it for granted. Look where we are now. We do all of the in-game development, they expect and rely on the players to do it, and development used to be a 'thing on the side' for players to get involved in if they wanted to. We should not be attempting to motivate through doing, there should already be a motivation provided in the money that is paid by all of the players out there looking for a change. You can call it "helping" all you want, but it's really not a case of just lending a hand.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

If you and your friends would focus as much attention to Bomy Island as you do to complaining, we might just have a good "new" server to play for Graal.

I'm not going to sink to your level of immaturity, but you're manager of Graal Kingdoms and where's the much needed releases for that? You're administrator of the guilds, and where's the much needed content for that? You should know exactly what problems people face here whilst developing. Clearly your positivity isn't resulting in much either, especially since you have numerous things under your belt that you appear to be completely neglecting. Call me, a player, out all you like for not being able to contribute at a fast pace, but who is paying me? Who is paying my staff? I can proudly state that anything and everything we do is for the players though, I bet you can't say the same.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

If you and your friends would focus as much attention to Bomy Island as you do to complaining, we might just have a good "new" server to play for Graal.

If you paid enough attention to GK, maybe it would be a half-decent server and people would play it instead of getting on the forums and complaining.

[BigBear3]

Originally Posted by kia345

If you paid enough attention to GK, maybe it would be a half-decent server and people would play it instead of getting on the forums and complaining.

Complain.

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=69091