Seriously.. Wtf?

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by salesman

Okay, my thread about developers not having to pay was stretching it, but I can never see players not having to pay.

CJ may look at this as a development platform, but there are far more players than developers.

how ironic

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Hiro

how ironic

How is that ironic? There should be more players than developers. Do you understand the concept of a game engine/development platform at all?

You pay to play the game because it costs money to host the game, among other costs that the owners have. Developers pay to develop for that same reason. The reason why it costs so much is because there aren't many players, but hosting costs have either stayed the same or have increased.

Feel free to conjecture about why there are less players, but the fact remains that if any of you bothered to make a great server yourself, then maybe you'd be able to draw in more players. Stop placing the blame on Stefan and other GraalOnline staffers.

[fowlplay4]

I think you guys are starting to put words into Stefan's mouth, considering you've extended his post into quite a few threads and pages now.

The main premise being that Stefan doesn't give a ****.

Also accounts are free.. subscriptions are not but I guess we were supposed to assume that's what you meant.

Even with a trial account you can pretty much experience every listed server Graal has to offer, provided you can put up with observer mode on Classic servers and the limits placed on Gold servers.

Couldn't really do that when trial accounts were reset every time you logged out.

So as Lone said..

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Feel free to conjecture about why there are less players, but the fact remains that if any of you bothered to make a great server yourself, then maybe you'd be able to draw in more players. Stop placing the blame on Stefan and other GraalOnline staffers.

[Vima]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

How is that ironic? There should be more players than developers. Do you understand the concept of a game engine/development platform at all?

You pay to play the game because it costs money to host the game, among other costs that the owners have. Developers pay to develop for that same reason. The reason why it costs so much is because there aren't many players, but hosting costs have either stayed the same or have increased.

Feel free to conjecture about why there are less players, but the fact remains that if any of you bothered to make a great server yourself, then maybe you'd be able to draw in more players. Stop placing the blame on Stefan and other GraalOnline staffers.

What I don't like is that poeple here doesn't think about the future, they only think about the present.
"We need to bring in money to be able to host the servers."
Well what about in next year? In two years?
We have tried with this business plan for many years now, maybe it's time to remake it.

Graal, to me, is a developement platform.
They host the servers, we make the content, they get the money.
But in the end Graal cannot entirely depend on us constantly updating their servers, making new servers like they do now.
We need to work together, they need to have contact with us, developers.
Just something like they replying to some of our ideas threads would to me mean a lot,
visiting promising servers would also inspire a lot of developers to work even harder.

We are a small community, we are getting smaller and smaller each year.
Yet they don't keep in touch with us.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Vima

Graal, to me, is a developement platform.
They host the servers, we make the content, they get the money.

Sounds more like a scam to me.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Vima

What I don't like is that poeple here doesn't think about the future, they only think about the present.
"We need to bring in money to be able to host the servers."
Well what about in next year? In two years?
We have tried with this business plan for many years now, maybe it's time to remake it.

Do you have a degree is business management, accounting, or are you a professional financial adviser? No? Okay, then move along folks, there's nothing to see here ...

Anyways, speak for yourself. I don't need Stefan to log on to Valikorlia and give me a motivational speech, for me to improve the server. If you do, then that sucks for you. Stefan has better things to do than baby a community that's perfectly capable of doing things for itself.

If you don't like the way development works, then leave. It's that simple. If you enjoy it, then stay. If you can't afford it, then that sucks for you; go bug server staff to make better servers, bring more players in, and thus decrease upgrade costs. The energy you people are putting in to shouting at anyone but the separate servers' staff is energy wasted.

I mean honestly, how is Stefan hopping on a server and saying "Great job, guys!" going to change anything?

[Vima]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Do you have a degree is business management, accounting, or are you a professional financial adviser? No? Okay, then move along folks, there's nothing to see here ...

For your information; I am well educated in that area, but I do not have an business management degree, but planning on studying that on an University in Switzerland soon.
Thats the problem with you and many others, you think that all people who play Graal is some 15year old fat kid who have no idea about anything;
Most of us are older than 18 and many people have/is studying at the university/college.

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Anyways, speak for yourself. I don't need Stefan to log on to Valikorlia and give me a motivational speech, for me to improve the server. If you do, then that sucks for you. Stefan has better things to do than baby a community that's perfectly capable of doing things for itself.

Problem is; Valikoria have and has been on the Classic tab for many years.
There are various servers under construction, who are in the shadow.
If they would visit the servers constantly and check out the progress/keep in track of the servers;
Yes I do think it would inspire a lot of developers to work harder.
It might be hard for you, who works on an classic tab server, to understand that.

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

If you don't like the way development works, then leave. It's that simple. If you enjoy it, then stay. If you can't afford it, then that sucks for you; go bug server staff to make better servers, bring more players in, and thus decrease upgrade costs. The energy you people are putting in to shouting at anyone but the separate servers' staff is energy wasted.

Most of us have been playing Graal since it was before p2p.
We see how Graal is constantly losing players, we are worried!
We want nothing more than the best for Graal.

and I would just like to add that Unholy Nation is a great example:
A few years ago before this new trial system, UN had loads of Trials.
Maybe about 30-40% of the players were trials,
in the past years they have lost almost half of their population and today it's almost rare to see a trial.
Is this a coincidence or what?

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Vima

For your information; I am well educated in that area, but I do not have an business management degree, but planning on studying that on an University in Switzerland soon.
Thats the problem with you and many others, you think that all people who play Graal is some 15year old fat kid who have no idea about anything;
Most of us are older than 18 and many people have/is studying at the university/college.

Then send Unixmad a professional business proposal.

Originally Posted by Vima

Problem is; Valikoria have and has been on the Classic tab for many years.
There are various servers under construction, who are in the shadow.
If they would visit the servers constantly and check out the progress/keep in track of the servers;
Yes I do think it would inspire a lot of developers to work harder.
It might be hard for you, who works on an classic tab server, to understand that.

I don't understand why it's any different for Classic developers. We use the same tools, do the same things, spend the same amount of time, etc. We seem to get things done without Stefan logging on and telling us we're doing a good job. The last time I remember a global frequently logging on was about a year ago. PFA, I believe, logged on frequently, because he liked our RC conversations, or something like that.

As a developer, I would be happy if Stefan told me I was doing a great job, but me working wouldn't be contingent on it. True developers work because they like to, and some even take in to consideration wanting to entertain players. They don't do it to get a cookie from Stefan. That's what I'm wanting to get at, here.

Originally Posted by Vima

Most of us have been playing Graal since it was before p2p.
We see how Graal is constantly losing players, we are worried!
We want nothing more than the best for Graal.

I would like more players, too. I remember when Valikorlia had an average playercount of 50-70 players. I attribute the downgrade more to advancement in the industry, than to lack of content. There's plenty of content on Graal. There's more and better content elsewhere on the internet. But, I don't want Graal to turn in to some fancy MMO (if that would ever happen). Creating better content can bring in some players, but Graal is as unlikely to return to its heyday as the DOW is to return to 14,000. Creating better content, however, isn't Stefan's responsibility. Why are you shortchanging developers? Why are you skipping them? Take your concerns to each server. If you want a new server, then gather up some money and make one.

Originally Posted by Vima

and I would just like to add that Unholy Nation is a great example:
A few years ago before this new trial system, UN had loads of Trials.
Maybe about 30-40% of the players were trials,
in the past years they have lost almost half of their population and today it's almost rare to see a trial.
Is this a coincidence or what?

It's probably because of observer mode. I don't log in to non-Classic servers, because I hate observer mode. I would prefer if the old trial system was brought back. But saving progress isn't as important on Valikorlia as it is on other servers. Either way, not having to upgrade your account is a horrible idea, business-wise, for GraalOnline. It could be done, but the costs have to be redistributed, which means higher costs for developers.

[Vima]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

I don't understand why it's any different for Classic developers. We use the same tools, do the same things, spend the same amount of time, etc. We seem to get things done without Stefan logging on and telling us we're doing a good job. The last time I remember a global frequently logging on was about a year ago. PFA, I believe, logged on frequently, because he liked our RC conversations, or something like that.

As a developer, I would be happy if Stefan told me I was doing a great job, but me working wouldn't be contingent on it. True developers work because they like to, and some even take in to consideration wanting to entertain players. They don't do it to get a cookie from Stefan. That's what I'm wanting to get at, here.

Progress on the classsic tab servers, Valikoria, N-Pulse, UN etc is really slow, a heck lot slower than on some UC servers.
But the thing is that the classic tab servers have allready achieved their goal;
Get to the classic tab.
For servers on the classic tab it's relatively easy to get staff, there are many under construction servers who only have three or four staff.
I often see servers with potential die after 3-5 months.
I think if they would be more interested in whats going on in their game, keep in track of the servers... build a bond, inspecting servers faster, communicate with the people ... after all this is a very small community.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by Vima

For your information; I am well educated in that area, but I do not have an business management degree, but planning on studying that on an University in Switzerland soon.
Thats the problem with you and many others, you think that all people who play Graal is some 15year old fat kid who have no idea about anything;
Most of us are older than 18 and many people have/is studying at the university/college.


Problem is; Valikoria have and has been on the Classic tab for many years.
There are various servers under construction, who are in the shadow.
If they would visit the servers constantly and check out the progress/keep in track of the servers;
Yes I do think it would inspire a lot of developers to work harder.
It might be hard for you, who works on an classic tab server, to understand that.


Most of us have been playing Graal since it was before p2p.
We see how Graal is constantly losing players, we are worried!
We want nothing more than the best for Graal.

and I would just like to add that Unholy Nation is a great example:
A few years ago before this new trial system, UN had loads of Trials.
Maybe about 30-40[percent] of the players were trials,
in the past years they have lost almost half of their population and today it's almost rare to see a trial.
Is this a coincidence or what?

887 trials have logged onto Era in the last 12 days, I'd imagine it's about the same for UN. The problem is, once they go into observer mode they probably say **** this and log off.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

How is that ironic? There should be more players than developers. Do you understand the concept of a game engine/development platform at all?

You pay to play the game because it costs money to host the game, among other costs that the owners have. Developers pay to develop for that same reason. The reason why it costs so much is because there aren't many players, but hosting costs have either stayed the same or have increased.

Feel free to conjecture about why there are less players, but the fact remains that if any of you bothered to make a great server yourself, then maybe you'd be able to draw in more players. Stop placing the blame on Stefan and other GraalOnline staffers.

for a person who sits comfortably on valikorlia, you sure do have a lot of opinions on the workings of graal as a whole. you also don't seem to understand that val is not a user-friendly environment, nor is it drawing in new players, so while you try to make graal a less player-oriented place, you also don't try to make players like the game. you're perception is too biased an opinion to make any difference in this conversation, and constantly stating that "everything is fine, shut up" won't win. when was the last time you gave graal money to develop?

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Anyways, speak for yourself. I don't need Stefan to log on to Valikorlia and give me a motivational speech, for me to improve the server. If you do, then that sucks for you. Stefan has better things to do than baby a community that's perfectly capable of doing things for itself.

If you don't like the way development works, then leave. It's that simple. If you enjoy it, then stay. If you can't afford it, then that sucks for you; go bug server staff to make better servers, bring more players in, and thus decrease upgrade costs. The energy you people are putting in to shouting at anyone but the separate servers' staff is energy wasted.

yea, let's take a scattered assortment of developers and make them run the entire game themselves, while at the same time reducing the player count and not putting out anything content (and really, how many new players has valikorlia brought in recently?)

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

I think you guys are starting to put words into Stefan's mouth, considering you've extended his post into quite a few threads and pages now.

The main premise being that Stefan doesn't give a ****.

Also accounts are free.. subscriptions are not but I guess we were supposed to assume that's what you meant.

Even with a trial account you can pretty much experience every listed server Graal has to offer, provided you can put up with observer mode on Classic servers and the limits placed on Gold servers.

Couldn't really do that when trial accounts were reset every time you logged out.

So as Lone said..

i've been going on the same premise the entire time, which is that graal, being a development platform, means that the community itself has to generate the content to get new players to play, as well as pay for graal to operate. i don't have any insight to whether stefan cares about graal or not, that isn't really my concern, but it's clear that we're to be making the content because he hasn't taken any action on making any player-specific updates in awhile

that said, going on with what vima said, servers really could use some support in getting through. the GDT is formed but who knows if that will progress anything into a new classic server, and eventually updates for the client and developer tools will be out, but who knows if that will produce any solid content

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Hiro

for a person who sits comfortably on valikorlia, you sure do have a lot of opinions on the workings of graal as a whole.

Because Valikorlia isn't part of Graal?

Originally Posted by Hiro

you also don't seem to understand that val is not a user-friendly environment, nor is it drawing in new players, so while you try to make graal a less player-oriented place, you also don't try to make players like the game.

We're drawing in plenty of new players, actually. Our problem is keeping all the old players that are going to college, getting jobs, etc.

And I don't understand why you're saying I'm trying to make Graal a "less player-oriented place". Developers are very much centered on making players happy. If you argue this vehemently to them, rather than to Stefan, then maybe some of the content you want would be created. But I've told you this at least five times; you must not believe me. Oh well.

Originally Posted by Hiro

you're perception is too biased an opinion to make any difference in this conversation, and constantly stating that "everything is fine, shut up" won't win.

How am I biased? Because I work on Graal's only unique server? Well, hey, guess what! Valikorlia has developers. I am one of them. Valikorlia has players, too. I am one of them.

Originally Posted by Hiro

yea, let's take a scattered assortment of developers and make them run the entire game themselves, while at the same time reducing the player count and not putting out anything content (and really, how many new players has valikorlia brought in recently?)

Uh... what do you think we've been doing for five, six, seven years now? Are you under some illusion that developers haven't been running the game all this time?

Also, the swipes against Valikorlia are so cliche. Find something new to whine about.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Also, the swipes against Valikorlia are so cliche. Find something new to whine about.

you'd think with so much complaining about valikorlia that it might be true

maybe not

it's useless to keep trying to make the same points against you since you don't seem to view the other side of this problem [i]at all[i/]