true question

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Gerami

What have I done? Really, It's not like I joined some Anti-Graal group and want to see Graal dead. Tell me what I've done, im serious.

I could copy and paste from the infractions area, but I'd get in trouble for doing so. You've broken quite a few rules and I know you know better. Same for a lot of other people and they still think they've done nothing wrong.

[Infernix]

I last made a ticket trying to get my other two account unbanned. They were banned for ban evading yet...if my accounts are banned thats means Ive current ban evading as it is. So I asked them why not unban them. Moonie said she would talk to Unixmad and Im pretty sad to say I have yet to receive a response.

Ive also had a incident where a mod banned me after deleting a post in a goodbye thread where I asked. (Not quote for quote) "Why are you leaveing, and does anyone know if this person has truly left"

Ive actually settled down cause I kind of came to the conclusion Ill never receive the support I would receive from other forums or games.

You may run these forums in this game in any manner that you want but in the end when things go wrong, no one is going care anymore.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Stephen

He's making a fair point Excal. What he's saying is things won't change - and if they ever do change it will only be out of necessity - which will never happen unless the forums = deserted. Which will also never happen.

In all honesty nothing like that would matter.

Because Unixmad and Stefan and Moon Goddess and Sam and everyone else has made it very obvious that they will just ban most anyone who had a voice that speaks against them or in a tone they dont want to hear.

So in theory, even if the forums were deserted, and there were maybe 2-3 new posts a week (or per day even), it would only further to make the administration happy.

Also Moon Goddess I am picking you out personally now, PLEASE stop hiding behind Stefan and Unixmad when you talk to us. Im tired of your only responses being robotic zealot forum admin responses, nothing ever gets done that way. Take a note from Stefan, he is at least TRYING

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Skrobo2

Why do you alienate yourself from the rest of us Moonie? You yourself are a Graal player the same as I am. The only difference is you have power on these forums that I don't. You take that power too seriously, though and make this place very uptight and uncomfortable. Thank you, for completely defeating the purpose of a forum, by stomping out free discussion. In my thread I said, "In all likelihood this thread will be deleted or closed, and it will only go to further the point of the communities members.", or something along that line. Why so predictable?

I'm not a Graal player anymore, thanks to the massive harrassment that I recieve in game everywhere I go. I take my job seriously, yes. I have a responsability, and I always take my responsabilities seriously, or I just don't do it at all.

[zell12]

Originally Posted by konidias

That's already been suggested by the forum staff. People don't agree with how it's being done. Forum staff think it's fine. They've got the final word. End of discussion.

There's no need to tell me I'm ignorant.

People don't agree with it because they are afraid of wasting their time. Who listens to one person, with no one to back them up? I'm positive that if enough people bring valid points to the administrators, change will in fact happen.

[James205]

Apparently my example just wasn't good enough.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Chris

I could copy and paste from the infractions area, but I'd get in trouble for doing so. You've broken quite a few rules and I know you know better. Same for a lot of other people and they still think they've done nothing wrong.

Well, discussing them is illegal after all but I'll end this one discussion by simply saying that the ones I do have by no means brands me as some kind of forum-criminal. My first post is still uncommented though, and I'm just waiting for someone to comment it in this thread.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Infernix

I last made a ticket trying to get my other two account unbanned. They were banned for ban evading yet...if my accounts are banned thats means Ive current ban evading as it is. So I asked them why not unban them. Moonie said she would talk to Unixmad and Im pretty sad to say I have yet to receive a response.

Ive also had a incident where a mod banned me after deleting a post in a goodbye thread where I asked. (Not quote for quote) "Why are you leaveing, and does anyone know if this person has truly left"

Ive actually settled down cause I kind of came to the conclusion Ill never receive the support I would receive from other forums or games.

You may run these forums in this game in any manner that you want but in the end when things go wrong, no one is going care anymore.

Not my fault that I havent heard from Unixmad yet. I did leave him a message about it.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by zell12

People don't agree with it because they are afraid of wasting their time. Who listens to one person, with no one to back them up? I'm positive that if enough people bring valid points to the administrators, change will in fact happen.

That's the thing. Dozens of people have tried. Many threads have been made (and closed) regarding issues with these forums.

They are making it clear that no matter how many people rally against the rules/mods, nothing is going to change. I think you're being naive.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by konidias

That's the thing. Dozens of people have tried. Many threads have been made (and closed) regarding issues with these forums.

They are making it clear that no matter how many people rally against the rules/mods, nothing is going to change. I think you're being naive.

Actually back in 2004 there was just so much that Spark ended up making a thread where we discuss such things in a more organized manner. I think progress was made there too.

[zell12]

Originally Posted by konidias

That's the thing. Dozens of people have tried. Many threads have been made (and closed) regarding issues with these forums.

Are you Unixmad/Stefans secretary or something? How would you know so many people tried emailing him regarding these issues?

Do you even have access to the Support Center to read tickets? Tell me how you know this.

They are making it clear that no matter how many people rally against the rules/mods, nothing is going to change. I think you're being naive.

They never said that. They said to to make a support ticket. My god, read stuff.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Actually back in 2004 there was just so much that Spark ended up making a thread where we discuss such things in a more organized manner. I think progress was made there too.

Yes, that progress is so obvious... *sarcasm*

[Crono]

Originally Posted by konidias

Yes, that progress is so obvious... *sarcasm*

In 2005 these forums were fine man...

[Skrobo2]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I'm not a Graal player anymore, thanks to the massive harrassment that I recieve in game everywhere I go. I take my job seriously, yes. I have a responsability, and I always take my responsabilities seriously, or I just don't do it at all.

Regardless of if you log onto the client or not, you are still a member of this community, and are included in "you people". You take your job too seriously and make the forum too strict. There is such a thing as too much moderation, and we have it here. Why did you delete my thread? Why not just give me an infraction and close my thread, so that I at least get my word out even if others can't add to it? Are you afraid of bad criticism? No matter where you go or what you do, someone, somewhere, will dislike your actions and have something negative to say about them. Accept it and don't just make it go away. Maybe even take it into consideration and try and work with the community, because that's what we want. I honestly have less of a complaint with your moderation than Sam's. You don't look to see who negative reps you then messages them calling them gutless for not putting their name in the rep comment, unlike Sam.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by zell12

Are you Unixmad/Stefans secretary or something? How would you know so many people tried emailing him regarding these issues?

Do you even have access to the Support Center to read tickets? Tell me how you know this.

No. But anyone who browses these forums could have noticed the multitude of complaint threads which have been closed over the years.

Actually, I might have access to read support center tickets... I did pretty much run the whole thing at one point in time.

They never said that. They said to to make a support ticket. My god, read stuff.

I read plenty of things. Put two and two together.

- People complain on forums, threads get closed and staff say "use support center"
- People complain about support center tickets not getting answered, those threads also get closed.

Hmmm, I think logic would lead us to the conclusion that nothing is being done or will be done, to change the rules to your liking.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Gerami

In 2005 these forums were fine man...

Fine compared to what? In 2001-2002 these forums were great fun. Far better than any year following.

[zell12]

Seems like every time a thread is created, and we get some nice discussion going, its closed, and we are told to use the support center to voice our concerns. I don't know if it will work, neither do you.

[Admins]

Originally Posted by zell12

would you know so many people tried emailing him regarding these issues?

In the last two month I received one forum PM about Sam being too strict on the forums. I am not using e-mails so that's zero, in the game people contacted me about scripting problems, restores on Kingdoms and becoming global admin but that's it.

[konidias]

Stefan just reached 8000 posts. :P I also wanted to ask "what's up with the EVILDOOM" thing? lol Sorry, if this is spam but it's not like it's gonna take the whole conversation off topic for Stefan to respond.

[Infernix]

Originally Posted by Stefan

In the last two month I received one forum PM about Sam being too strict on the forums. I am not using e-mails so that's zero, in the game people contacted me about scripting problems, restores on Kingdoms and becoming global admin but that's it.

Did you respond, and was this from a average player like myself?

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Skrobo2

Regardless of if you log onto the client or not, you are still a member of this community, and are included in "you people". You take your job too seriously and make the forum too strict. There is such a thing as too much moderation, and we have it here. Why did you delete my thread? Why not just give me an infraction and close my thread, so that I at least get my word out even if others can't add to it? Are you afraid of bad criticism? No matter where you go or what you do, someone, somewhere, will dislike your actions and have something negative to say about them. Accept it and don't just make it go away. Maybe even take it into consideration and try and work with the community, because that's what we want. I honestly have less of a complaint with your moderation than Sam's. You don't look to see who negative reps you then messages them calling them gutless for not putting their name in the rep comment, unlike Sam.

Your thread was deleted because we don't need 2 illegal threads at the same time. I am annoyed at not being able to remove this one because another admin is discussing issues with people when it is so obviously a waste of time. I will accept any complaints, but through the support center. that is what it is for. If the complaints are against me, then send them to Unixmad, I have no problem with it.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by konidias

Fine compared to what? In 2001-2002 these forums were great fun. Far better than any year following.

Sadly I can't conclude anything from that time, because I wasn't really here. BUT, what I do know is that 2003 it was going downhill, 2004 it was just horrible, but 2005 was quite good compared to 2003, 2004, 2006, and 2007.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by Minoc

Could you stop mentioning homosexuality in every post you make?
Even the members of the other forum disagree with you.

Well...that's because they're.....
I posted these rules on another development forum I visit. They found them to be unfair, restrictive, and yes, homophobic.

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Your thread was deleted because we don't need 2 illegal threads at the same time. I am annoyed at not being able to remove this one because another admin is discussing issues with people when it is so obviously a waste of time. I will accept any complaints, but through the support center. that is what it is for. If the complaints are against me, then send them to Unixmad, I have no problem with it.

No, we need 10000 of those threads it seems. Eventually, someone will drill it into your head.
Bad moderation + restrictive rules = unhappy customers.
Which kind of customer doesn't pay for VIP/Gold when it runs out in 3 days?

The unhappy kind.


I'd love to renew...but this isn't a place for someone who wants to have fun, or enjoy the forum.
Not to mention a Mac user

Darlene, you're one of the biggest parts of this problem. Different forums, ran by different moderators with the same rules do this much better. Even with the same (unfair) rules, they would be better if you (and Sam) weren't so strict with them

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Your thread was deleted because we don't need 2 illegal threads at the same time. I am annoyed at not being able to remove this one because another admin is discussing issues with people when it is so obviously a waste of time.

STOP
JUST STOP
PLEASE

Look at the screen at what you are typing and QUIT TRYING TO SEPERATE US LIkE THAT. My god.

JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK IT IS A WASTE OF TIME DOES NOT MAKE IT A WASTE OF TIME.

Stefan is TRYING TO TALK TO US PLEASE DO THE SAME THING OR STOP POSTING IN THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT ARE GIVEN TO YOU WITHOUT SEPERATING US LIKE WE ARE DOGS.

Caps in certain places so I hope my point gets across this time as you have ducked my last Two posts directed at you.

If more people would put in a little more effort like Stefan is now this place might be able to get back into shape one day.

I dont think its too much to ask by anyones standard to be given a straight answer when we ask questions.

[zell12]

Originally Posted by Stefan

In the last two month I received one forum PM about Sam being too strict on the forums. I am not using e-mails so that's zero, in the game people contacted me about scripting problems, restores on Kingdoms and becoming global admin but that's it.

Wasn't really my point if you got emails or tickets regarding this issue. Koni seems to know everything, that's all.

I'm sure you will be getting quite a few complaints on the Support Center after today, and in your email box.

[killerogue]

Haha, make Stan a mod and we wouldn't have this problem. Also methinks Stefan you should appoint a few more moderators/globals so customers as myself could get support/assistance much faster, because this is getting sort of ridiculous. I've once put in a ticket for a server name change and it didn't get answered for two weeks. That's totally weak man. I understand where you're coming from. Everyone please put thereselves in Stefan's shoes, however Stefan and Unixmad, as well as Darlene the most should be doing the same.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Andy0687

Stefan is TRYING TO TALK TO US PLEASE DO THE SAME THING OR STOP POSTING IN THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT ARE GIVEN TO YOU WITHOUT SEPERATING US LIKE WE ARE DOGS.

Caps in certain places so I hope my point gets across this time as you have ducked my last Two posts directed at you.

If more people would put in a little more effort like Stefan is now this place might be able to get back into shape one day.

I dont think its too much to ask by anyones standard to be given a straight answer when we ask questions.

I have done this several times already,and so has Unixmad, as I said. It always ends the same, and the same way this thread will end. We read, we explain, we hash it out, then we get bashed because we didn't do what people wants. It is always the same. I'm not going to keep doing it over and over and over.

[zell12]

Originally Posted by killerogue

Haha, make Stan a mod and we wouldn't have this problem. Also methinks Stefan you should appoint a few more moderators/globals so customers as myself could get support/assistance much faster, because this is getting sort of ridiculous. I've once put in a ticket for a server name change and it didn't get answered for two weeks. That's totally weak man. I understand where you're coming from. Everyone please put thereselves in Stefan's shoes, however Stefan and Unixmad, as well as Darlene the most should be doing the same.

I'm sure your problem is something only Stefan or Unixmad can fix, since they do not trust anyone else overseas. They also don't want to spend the money (I'm assuming this is the reason) to employ someone else to work at the office with them. Oh well. Don't blame the other staff, they are only messengers.

[killerogue]

Originally Posted by zell12

I'm sure your problem is something only Stefan or Unixmad can fix, since they do not trust anyone else overseas. They also don't want to spend the money (I'm assuming this is the reason) to employ someone else to work at the office with them. Oh well. Don't blame the other staff, they are only messengers.

Was a while back just an example.

[zell12]

Yeah, I figured. I know how you feel though, I have a pending issue on the support center, 3 months over due waiting for a response. I still have unconfirmed PMs sent to Admins that were never viewed and never responded to, even after 4 years.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by zell12

Wasn't really my point if you got emails or tickets regarding this issue. Koni seems to know everything, that's all.

I'm sure you will be getting quite a few complaints on the Support Center after today, and in your email box.

I never once mentioned anything about people e-mailing him. I said there have been many threads just like this that have been closed that anyone who uses these forums could have seen by now.

Of course I don't know everything, but it's hard not to notice something so obvious.

[killerogue]

Originally Posted by zell12

Yeah, I figured. I know how you feel though, I have a pending issue on the support center, 3 months over due waiting for a response. I still have unconfirmed PMs sent to Admins that were never viewed and never responded to, even after 4 years.

I think this should all be summed up into three simple not quite demands but requests. Just here read this Stefan/Unix/Moonie:

1. Please a little less strict modding and bending rules.
2. Stop treating us like children. We're not all. Some of us are intelligent adult human beings.
3. And just don't be afraid to ask for help or hire help. I know your trust in the community to produce fine globals has failed due to "incidents" but you must listen to your customers and do your best to keep them happy.

[killerogue]

Sorry for the DP. But I think this thread may make some progress in the global/customer relationship. I like how many globals are online.

[Skrobo2]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I have done this several times already,and so has Unixmad, as I said. It always ends the same, and the same way this thread will end. We read, we explain, we hash it out, then we get bashed because we didn't do what people wants. It is always the same. I'm not going to keep doing it over and over and over.

You're going to get bashed by unhappy people regardless. Accept it and live with it. And most importantly read what is said, consider it, and make adjustments to compensate for it. People aren't happy, so make them happy. Not satisfying the customers leads to a dead community. Do you want that? And in your last reply to me you didn't give any good reason why my thread was deleted. Close it if you don't want it being discussed, but don't hide my opinions and view from the rest of the community.

[PrinceDark]

We don't make money with letting people harass other people, no matter if they are normal forum members or moderators.

Several individuals here have received an argument provoking personal message from a certain not so friendly mod. Funny thing is, majority of us left initials or full name letting the user know where the neg rep came. I really don't care as much as some others do, but I just wanted to point this out as proof is readily available by the ones who have been attacked.

Originally Posted by Sam
Are you so gutless to leave your name in the rep comment? You're cool

[killerogue]

No offense to you Stefan, but you are a stubborn guy man. As well as the other Graal global moderators. HOWEVER, the users/customers of Graal tend to be overly stubborn as well so if two sides continue to be stubborn without compromise we get nowhere.


Broke 1000.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Skrobo2

You're going to get bashed by unhappy people regardless. Accept it and live with it. And most importantly read what is said, consider it, and make adjustments to compensate for it. People aren't happy, so make them happy. Not satisfying the customers leads to a dead community. Do you want that? And in your last reply to me you didn't give any good reason why my thread was deleted. Close it if you don't want it being discussed, but don't hide what opinions and view from the rest of the community.

I don't mind the bashing or the complaints, but do it via the support center where it is suppose to be done. I read all of it.
You cannot make everyone happy, it is impossible. The only way to even come close is to have no rules at all, and let people do/post what they want. Trust me, I have seen first hand the results of that, and want no part of it. I would rather have dead forums.

Some of you keep bringing up what Sam said via private forum PM about reputation points. He called a couple of people "gutless" for not leaving their names, correct? Number one, this was done in a private PM, not in open forum. Is gutless an offensive word like stupid, *****, *******, ect...? I think I have even been called that a few times in open forum. I don't think anyone has ever been warned for it have they? What exactly is the issue here? I have had worse private PM's then this, and done nothing because it is a private PM.
If it bothered people so much, why do I have no forum PM's in my PM box reporting it?

[PrinceDark]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I don't mind the bashing or the complaints, but do it via the support center where it is suppose to be done. I read all of it.

Darlene, the problem is if they do it in the support center, then the individual being complained against has access to their own complaint. So the complaint goes silenced and unnoticed.
People are wanting an individual that is higher up over the mods, but below Stefan, Unix, Ibonic to be able to moderate actions done by moderators.

[killerogue]

Ugh. 5 Simple rules. And Darlene please absorb for a few moments what I posted. But 5 rules will all be needed:

1. No Harassment of Any Type.
2. No Multiple Posting in Succession.

Maybe only 2?

[killerogue]

Here's better yet a an even simpler idea:

1. Forum Manager.

Lower than Stefan and Unix but can manage the moderators and override their actions. Please you should consider that. It makes enough sense ya kno. And please for god sakes if you do. Don't recycle people who already have global/moderator powers. Find some new blood for christs' sake.