4 Years of being stagnant

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

@ Dusty.

But if you can't do better, then how can you tell someone how to do their job? Yes, the dev team hasn't lived up to expectations. But instead of downgrading the work they actually do put out, why not thank them for it? The quantity of their work needs improvement. I can't judge the quality because I don't pretend to know how make complex scripts. (I could script a guild door or a chair back on GS1 years ago. Anything else is beyond me.) But if you can't script a better quest than Sardons/Gnome/Graal Castle, you are in no position to tell them to "make a better quest".

You assume no one thanks anyone around here for good work. If I see something I like and is done well, I say so. Also, it doesn't take someone knowledge of scripting or such to know when something is scripted poorly. You don't need to know how to paint a pretty picture to know when something looks pretty, or when it looks ugly. These are all very basic concepts we apply daily. Can you tell a bad game from a good game? If you shell out $60 for a game and you know it sucks(you don't have know how to make a game to know it sucks!), you can expect better.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Agreed with the stop *****ing at devs statement. It sounds completely selfish to yell at them because they're not catering to your tastes. I have seen several people appreciate what the devs have done on various things. Just because they aren't catering to you, Dusty, doesn't give you the right to call them out and keep *****ing about how they're making a server die more regardless of the fact that the server would be dying far worse without any updates/changes.

It's not *****ing, it's wanting better. Many have already acknowledged that Thor is very hard working, and probably the hardest working on one Classic, but that doesn't mean we're just going to settle for less. If the server is dying, it's dying. Most management and staff can come to that realization pretty easily, and yes it sucks, but they can't avoid the truth just because they're trying. And I'm not saying this to say that Thor is the singularity of Classic's problems, as there are many things that add up into one big mess.

[Felix_Xenophobe]

classic had its peak when it had the dictionary npc inside the bank. when it was removed classic lost it all.

[BlackSolider]

You make a good point there dusty, but do remember people are paid to paint pictures (sometimes) or make video games. Devs don't get paid; they spend their free time trying to please the mostly un-please-able community. And no, I don't assume that no one gives the devs thanks or anything. But I do know that I see a lot of people just constantly ***** about what they do.

Yes, you expect a certain standard of work. But we shouldn't expect a 'Crazy Stairs' painting from anyone but Picasso. The devs dev to their ability. If you don't feel like its good enough, then make something better. Otherwise, thank them and enjoy it as best you can.

[Crimson2005]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Yes, you expect a certain standard of work. But we shouldn't expect a 'Crazy Stairs' painting from anyone but Picasso

or M.C. Escher...the guy that actually painted it

[BlackSolider]

Oh look, an art expert.

Seriously though, thanks. Idk who did it so I just used a name I knew.

[Crimson2005]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Oh look, an art expert.

Seriously though, thanks. Idk who did it so I just used a name I knew.

Yes, but I disagree with the whole "if you can't do better then shut up". You may be happy to settle for second best but some of us aren't. Some of us know that settling for second best isn't going to get us anywhere in the long run.

[BlackSolider]

I wouldn't know what "better" would be, nor do I have the ability to make something "better" than what they have. All I know is that no matter what the GCs or Devs do, they get more **** than appreciation, whether deserved or not. If you expect a "perfect" event or a "perfect" quest or w/e, you're probably asking the wrong people.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

You make a good point there dusty, but do remember people are paid to paint pictures (sometimes) or make video games. Devs don't get paid; they spend their free time trying to please the mostly un-please-able community. And no, I don't assume that no one gives the devs thanks or anything. But I do know that I see a lot of people just constantly ***** about what they do.

Yes, you expect a certain standard of work. But we shouldn't expect a 'Crazy Stairs' painting from anyone but Picasso. The devs dev to their ability. If you don't feel like its good enough, then make something better. Otherwise, thank them and enjoy it as best you can.

This I am aware of. But you have to remember that Graal, regardless of being basically built by volunteers, is still a game you have to pay for. Therefor, if I am a new person to Graal and I pay for a subscription to Graal, I should still expect some level of quality. People who take on position of staff on these servers take on that responsibility; they are, or should be, aware of that. Criticism comes with the territory.

[BlackSolider]

Excessive criticism shouldn't. Look at the HD. People complained about the serverside HD when the server got moved to Euro. People voted for clientside. So thor made one. Now they continue to *****, even though they wanted it.

What motivation does a dev have, when nothing they do is ever good enough? People wanted some quests for classic. So sardons+gnomes got released. Some people complained about those. People wanted content for classic. So bowling+minigamesystem+fishing got released. Some people complained about those.

Looks like a no-win situation to me. Its impossible to please everybody. Now I don't know what each person expects quality wise from the dev team. Personally I expected more stuff to be released than what was. I don't go yelling and cursing the dev team about it. I talk to some of them about it. I post things on forums about it. But I don't go bashing the dev team all day. That just doesn't help the situation.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Excessive criticism shouldn't. Look at the HD. People complained about the serverside HD when the server got moved to Euro. People voted for clientside. So thor made one. Now they continue to *****, even though they wanted it.

Because it's not good detection. What's hard to understand about that? Just because it's clientside doesn't mean it's going to be good. It has been said a lot that Thor probably worked hard on it, hard work != good in all cases.

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

What motivation does a dev have, when nothing they do is ever good enough? People wanted some quests for classic. So sardons+gnomes got released. Some people complained about those. People wanted content for classic. So bowling+minigamesystem+fishing got released. Some people complained about those.

There are always going to be people who complain. If you're a dev and you don't want to hear it you're in the wrong place. Like I said it comes with the territory. Is that a good thing? Of course not, but it will never go away. This applies to all games. There will always be the people who hate and criticize.

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Looks like a no-win situation to me. Its impossible to please everybody. Now I don't know what each person expects quality wise from the dev team. Personally I expected more stuff to be released than what was. I don't go yelling and cursing the dev team about it. I talk to some of them about it. I post things on forums about it. But I don't go bashing the dev team all day. That just doesn't help the situation.

There are those who bash and those who bring up rational points. You seem to not be able to tell the two apart. The former are those who bash with no just cause and don't even attempt to be constructive in it. There have been many constructive points brought up about the HD and other aspects of Classic. It's not all bashing just because people aren't settling for less.

[BlackSolider]

The people asked for it. They got what they want. How can you complain about it then?

Indeed there will be.

I can tell the two apart. I simply see a lot more bashing than rational. "Oh this HD isn't what I thought it was gonna be. YOU SUCK THOR" etc etc.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

The people asked for it. They got what they want. How can you complain about it then?

Indeed there will be.

I can tell the two apart. I simply see a lot more bashing than rational. "Oh this HD isn't what I thought it was gonna be. YOU SUCK THOR" etc etc.

You're not grasping it. It's akin to eating dirt, and asking for something better and getting sand. People assumed when they asked for clientside HD, it would be better HD. Now they didn't assume wrongly, because clientside HD can be a lot better than what is currently up(it can be made to replicate the default HD).

The problem is, it's not what people hoped it was gonna be. Just because Thor worked hard on it is no reason to settle for shoddy HD. Sorry, but that's not how development works.

[BlackSolider]

HDs and their capabilities are beyond me. The people asked for clientside, they got clientside. If they don't like it, well then thats their problem.

One year as a kid I asked for a red power ranger toy for xmas. I got a blue one. Did I *****? Of course. I was young. Now adays, I try to be appreciative of what I get. My parents tried to get a red one but couldn't. I still got a damn power ranger toy. I should have been happy, even though the blue one wasn't as cool.

For comparison, the classicians asked for clientside HD. Thor got em one. Maybe it wasn't exactly what they were hoping for. But they still asked for it. Maybe they should be appreciative the Dev team actually listened to the people and attempted to please them. Obviously it didn't work out like everyone had hoped, but hey, he tried.

As long as thor did his best, I won't ***** about it. I dislike the HD and have stated so several times, but I'm not gonna spam hatred for something he put effort in to.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

HDs and their capabilities are beyond me. The people asked for clientside, they got clientside. If they don't like it, well then thats their problem.

One year as a kid I asked for a red power ranger toy for xmas. I got a blue one. Did I *****? Of course. I was young. Now adays, I try to be appreciative of what I get. My parents tried to get a red one but couldn't. I still got a damn power ranger toy. I should have been happy, even though the blue one wasn't as cool.

For comparison, the classicians asked for clientside HD. Thor got em one. Maybe it wasn't exactly what they were hoping for. But they still asked for it. Maybe they should be appreciative the Dev team actually listened to the people and attempted to please them. Obviously it didn't work out like everyone had hoped, but hey, he tried.

As long as thor did his best, I won't ***** about it. I dislike the HD and have stated so several times, but I'm not gonna spam hatred for something he put effort in to.

When you settle for less, or in this case something completely different from what you asked for, then you are leading the server into a false sense of accomplishment and security. Nothing will improve unless you voice your true opinions on something, regardless of how much effort someone placed into it. I don't think that I have seen anyone really boast hatred, though some opinions were expressed more harshly than others. Sometimes being harsh is needed though, especially if the person believes that there isn't actually an issue when there clearly is and everyone is saying it.

[BlackSolider]

So we're going to overlook the fact that Thor complied with the people's wishes just b/c it wasn't exactly what they hoped for?

Were people expecting a flawless hd?

Really, what was everyone expecting?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

So we're going to overlook the fact that Thor complied with the people's wishes just b/c it wasn't exactly what they hoped for?

Were people expecting a flawless hd?

Really, what was everyone expecting?

I give up.

[BlackSolider]

Good because this was going in circles.

I see your point dawg. I was nothing but the best for classic. But you can't expect a perfect HD since there is no such thing.

[xnervNATx]

mix them together

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Good because this was going in circles.

I see your point dawg. I was nothing but the best for classic. But you can't expect a perfect HD since there is no such thing.

We can't(or shouldn't) expect perfection, but we can expect something better. Apparently this is even worse off than the serverside, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting something better. We shouldn't have to apply 'well he worked hard so I guess I can deal with it' logic. That is not how development works. I, as a developer, wouldn't want people to patronize me.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by xnervNATx

mix them together

...what?

[BlackSolider]

As a dev (or a GC) I would simply want people to actually appreciate the effort I put in, rather than never be satisfied.

Honestly choosing between serverside and clientside is like picking your poison:
with serverside, you get reached hit occasionally.
with clientside, your hits don't always count.

The change to clientside pretty much solved the reach problem (I believe this was the main reason people wanted it changed), but introduced a new problem that people hadn't considered/known about.

So thor solved one problem, only to introduce another. People complain about the new problem but forget about the old being gone. I do believe that was the reason it was changed in the first place.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

As a dev (or a GC) I would simply want people to actually appreciate the effort I put in, rather than never be satisfied.

Motivation is indeed a good thing when you're a dev, but praise and no criticism is only going to stifle any developer. You need to know your flaws and you need to know when you make flaws, or else you will never learn. I, personally, prefer learning and advancing myself rather than to be showered is praise just to be praised.

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

with serverside, you get reached hit occasionally.
with clientside, your hits don't always count.

That's not how it works, and hence the problem. It can be better.

[BlackSolider]

But what HD is better?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

But what HD is better?

Whichever satisfies the majority of the current playerbase, while having openings for potential new players.

[WhiteDragon]

Since it looks as some people are unclear as to what the technical limitations of the HD are I'll explain briefly.

There are essentially three paradigms one can take when designing an HD:
Say we have player1, player2, and the server.
1. When player1 slashes, player1 looks at his screen and sees it hits player2, so player2 is hit. (always fair to the hitter)
2. When player1 slashes, player2 looks at his screen and sees he was hit by player1, so player2 is hit. (always fair to the person getting hit)
3. The server calculates if player1 hit player2 based on their serverside positions. (can look wrong to both players sometimes)

Previously, with the serverside HD we had number 3, and now with the clientside HD we have a mix of 1 and 2.
The fact that we're mixing them is the reason why some hits aren't counted. They aren't counted if the difference between the screen of the person hitting and the person getting hit is too large (to prevent reach hits and exploitation by laggers).



The difference between our clientside HD and the default HD is just the way information is transfered between the two clients and how the players are detected. What Kat is doing now is making a new clientside HD which acts more like the default.

[BlackSolider]

Good stuff to know WD, thanks.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

But what HD is better?

Sometimes it's not a matter of 'what HD is better' because it isn't as simple as serverside vs clientside. It can be as different as the scripter wants. Sometimes the HD can be good, but the values(detection, range of sword for instance) are poor. Sometimes the values are right, but the HD is poorly scripted. Sometimes it's both... it can be so many matter of things that you just can't really label a HD into black and white. You just have to play and feel which one is better. Ideally, it seems people want a HD that closely mimics the default(UN uses, for instance).

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

What Kat is doing now is making a new clientside HD which acts more like the default.

exactly like the default*

[BlackSolider]

Unfortunately I read that the exact default HD won't work on classic b/c it wouldn't mesh with all the scripts made in the last 4 years or so.

Could be wrong but I'll check on this tomorrow.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

exactly like the default*

Thor told me it was impossible to redo the default movement unless Classic had access to timevar3 which could be used to do checks servers AND clientside (or something along these lines).

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Unfortunately I read that the exact default HD won't work on classic b/c it wouldn't mesh with all the scripts made in the last 4 years or so.

This is correct to a degree, but I imagine it would actually be possible to come pretty close to getting it to work. It'd take some pretty awkward scripting. In fact, without actually trying it, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of it working completely with the appropriate code.

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

Thor told me it was impossible to redo the default movement unless Classic had access to timevar3 which could be used to do checks servers AND clientside (or something along these lines).

This isn't true at all. I have no idea what he could've been thinking when you were told this. Time synchronization of any kind isn't even used in any way.


Keep in mind that default and a scripted replica of the default are two different things. That doesn't mean they have to be any different, in terms of use, to the players.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

Unfortunately I read that the exact default HD won't work on classic b/c it wouldn't mesh with all the scripts made in the last 4 years or so.

Could be wrong but I'll check on this tomorrow.

They could just be fixed.

[BlackSolider]

So we're going to take two steps backwards again?

Yes, remaking all those scripts might solve the problem if the HD worked out, but it'd set the dev team back even further.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

They could just be fixed.

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Yes, they could be fixed after a large amount of time.
Then we've spent another year getting back to where we were, only with a new HD and nothing new.

Great idea for a server that is in dire need for NEW content.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Some food for thought, brought to you by classic toall system.

maximus_asinus [A]: NPC interaction should also be recorded in this thing
maximus_asinus [A]: like when I buy a ticket instead of "you bought a ticket" it should appear in this interaction thing.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: possibly but thats a lot of recoding
maximus_asinus [L]: /transfer 1 hugs darkcloud_pk
maximus_asinus [A]: okay, then the transfer system atleast
maximus_asinus [A]: "you've recieved 1 hugs from maximus_asinus" in gold text would look nice
DarkCloud_PK [A]: you'd have to make a check to see if people have the chat window enabled or disabled
DarkCloud_PK [A]: other than that, its a good idea
maximus_asinus [A]: yeah, but if you're going to make a window like this you should make it fully intergrated in all the systems, otherwise it is pointless.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: should be i agree, just a lot of development power to do it
DarkCloud_PK [A]: right now i want to see all dev power going to new content
maximus_asinus [A]: I agree completely, but he has already begun this project, I'd be very angry if he left it half finished to go to another project
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i'll suggest it and see where it goes
maximus_asinus [A]: it couldn't be too hard, he'd have to what? tokenize the this.chat variable and make a function within the player's NPC which detects this token and displays it in the bar? I am not the best scripter, but it doesn't seem too complicated.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: its mostly a matter of clientside vs serverside mishmash
DarkCloud_PK [A]: when you get your chat set by an npc, it doesnt detect it on this chat system
DarkCloud_PK [A]: so you'd have to trigger this npc clientside AND check if its even on
DarkCloud_PK [L]: for every npc that makes you chat for messages
DarkCloud_PK [L]: o
DarkCloud_PK [A]: if you get your chat editted by script, it doesnt call the function onPlayerChats(), because technically, you didnt chat
maximus_asinus [A]: yeah I get what you mean
DarkCloud_PK [A]: so if I warpto via chatting it, it will show up on this log
maximus_asinus [A]: is there no work around to maybe just check to see if your chat isn't blank and work from there?
DarkCloud_PK [A]: but if I use playerlist, it wont
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i think he'd have to retool his whole chat system for that
maximus_asinus [A]: he has to make it so toalls don't show up in this bar and on the minimap, makes it confusing.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i dont think you can disable toalls from going to minimap
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i like toalls being on a chat window
maximus_asinus [A]: I thought there was a way, like with showstats or something
DarkCloud_PK [A]: that way you can always see it, instead of it being gone forever once you click it away
DarkCloud_PK [A]: hm
DarkCloud_PK [A]: possibly
maximus_asinus [A]: again, I'm not the best scripter, so I might be mistaken
DarkCloud_PK [A]: if there is, that would be easy to implement
maximus_asinus [A]: also should be able to move this chat window around. Its a gui script right?
DarkCloud_PK [A]: time to look it up
DarkCloud_PK [A]: use
DarkCloud_PK [A]: yes
DarkCloud_PK [A]: feel free to suggest it to WD, im sure he will take it into account, as long as people stay positive on its addition
DarkCloud_PK [A]: if people start telling him it sucks and needs this, no dev is going to listen
maximus_asinus [A]: already made an attempt to talk to him, he has ignored me outright, or is taking my suggestions silently.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: about what
maximus_asinus [A]: what I'm talking to you about right now.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: the chat system?
maximus_asinus [A]: yeah
DarkCloud_PK [A]: throw in a "nice idea on the chat system, I like it, would it be possible to add "adsdasdfad" to it?"
DarkCloud_PK [A]: devs thrive on their content getting rave reviews
maximus_asinus [A]: another pro about it is that I can copy/paste text from the window, this is a great system.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: be sure to let him know
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i think thats what the last few pages of the huge classic thread is about
DarkCloud_PK [A]: devs getting bashed for their work
DarkCloud_PK [A]: when devs get bashed, it makes them more reluctant to work, not more inspired
DarkCloud_PK [A]: and the reverse is also true
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i am 100% sure that if people used that approach to suggest things to the dev team, it would ultimately yield more content
maximus_asinus [A]: I'll try
DarkCloud_PK [A]: the more compliments and positive response a dev team gets for their work, they more they will be inspired to do more
TheDae [A]: They dont do anything worth praising
DarkCloud_PK [A]: thats why i dont make events anymore, because people never gave me compliments or use the **** i made
maximus_asinus [A]: Dae, this system is a prime example of something good
DarkCloud_PK [A]: ok thedae, how about we just be stagnant for another 4 years
DarkCloud_PK [A]: by making the devs not want to work<br><b>DarkCloud_PK [A]: good idea
maximus_asinus [A]: toall is outdated and barely functioned as it was.
maximus_asinus [A]: now I can paste weblinks into a toall, and a person could copy/paste it into their browser
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i will take a bunch of content with a few flaws over none at all
DarkCloud_PK [A]: dunno about everyone else
maximus_asinus [A]: hey, if it is possible why don't make hyperlinking in the toall system?
DarkCloud_PK [A]: might be possible
DarkCloud_PK [A]: all these suggestions are good
DarkCloud_PK [L]: im going to post this toall log on the forums

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

DarkCloud_PK [A]: ok thedae, how about we just be stagnant for another 4 years

Okay, so a generic chat system removes the stagnation from a server?

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Okay, so a generic chat system removes the stagnation from a server?

no, but its one element to a grander picture.
if people would praise the development team for the good things they release, with a few bugs or not, they'll end up being more inspired.

[Crimson2005]

The chat system is bollocks anyway, we now have to read messages we receive twice. Can't you just make toalls appear in the F2 window? I'm sure it used to do that when v2 was around...

[DarkCloud_PK]

read the whole thing in there, i said, if theres a way to disable toalls with the chat window enabled, that would be easy to implement.

I personally hate how toalls work currently, and would rather have them in any sort of chat window

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

no, but its one element to a grander picture.
if people would praise the development team for the good things they release, with a few bugs or not, they'll end up being more inspired.

How would the development team be more "inspired" through positive feedback of negative content?