New Shop Released

[Galdor]

Originally Posted by Crono

then the rats respawned. and i died. and gg

You suck crono
But I do agree that it could be less rats it was quite ridiculous

[ff7chocoboknight]

You mean the mice? I hate them too, but Thor's the boss.

[Kamaeru]

Cool, I'll check this out tonight.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

stopped doing it because as usual it was annoying and had no sense of intuition or design

Seems like "stopped playing" is the adopted term for "I can't think of any way to actually describe why something isn't good and cannot be bothered to dissect it any further".

So why does it lack a sense of intuition and design exactly?

Having observed people playing through it, most people do seem to suss-out what to do fairly instinctively, but then it's not like there aren't hints in place either.

Originally Posted by Crono

first was the dreaded rats, seriously the single most annoying thing ive ever had to face on graal. i kill them and started playing with the ladder. after killing the bees i starting tossing the TNT and switch around. they would disappear or break or whatever. cool.

then the rats respawned. and i died. and gg

If 3 mice, which have a body size about half the area of your sword hit box, move along a straight line in random directions, deal 0.5 HP damage, are killed in one hit and respawn after 60 seconds is so "dreaded", then I can't wait to see you how fair with a form of baddy that is actually intended to be more than just the slightest of obstacles.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Seems like "stopped playing" is the adopted term for "I can't think of any way to actually describe why something isn't good and cannot be bothered to dissect it any further".

So why does it lack a sense of intuition and design exactly?

Having observed people playing through it, most people do seem to suss-out what to do fairly instinctively, but then it's not like there aren't hints in place either.

In this day and age if I play a game and its gameplay or controls annoy me, I put it down and usually never play it again. For example, I tried getting into Resident Evil 2 only to find it's controls were absolute and complete ****. I never touched it again.

The thing about this quest so far, I mean this is like the very first room, is that I know exactly what I need to do but I don't know HOW to go through with it. I know I'm supposed to place the TNT and detonator next to the door (or so the game leads me to believe) but both objects BREAK and DISAPPEAR when I do this. First thing I did? Oh ok I must be doing something wrong I'll try again. Oh look. It happened again. (BTW the bit with the ladder was rather ridiculous, if I want to grab something off a shelf I don't climb on the actual shelf, I use the ladder to get on level and then pick up the object. This is the first thing I did and when I saw I couldn't pick the TNT or detonator off I scratched my head. I then moved the thing over to the empty slot and yeah, bees etc).

What did I do at this point? Rats respawning, what's supposed to be completely straightforward isn't working. Is it worth the hassle? Nope. Log.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

If 3 mice, which have a body size about half the area of your sword hit box, move along a straight line in random directions, deal 0.5 HP damage, are killed in one hit and respawn after 60 seconds is so "dreaded", then I can't wait to see you how fair with a form of baddy that is actually intended to be more than just the slightest of obstacles.

They're quick, they suddenly move, and they waste my precious health.

If the rest of your server is going to be annoying don't worry, I'll just turn on my iPhone.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

II know I'm supposed to place the TNT and detonater next to the door (or so the game leads me to believe) but both objects BREAK and DISAPPEAR when I do this.

This is for a good reason, they break if they're thrown onto a blocking area, otherwise they could possibly end up somewhere you would no longer be able to reach them.

Originally Posted by Crono

They're quick, they suddenly move, and they waste my precious health.

Yes that's kind-of the whole point.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

This is for a good reason, they break if they're thrown onto a blocking area, otherwise they could possibly end up somewhere you would no longer be able to reach them.

Yeah nice man, what's the first thing someone does when they want to place TNT next to the door? They throw it directly at it. Why doesn't it just place itself under the door after you throw it? And how would I know where to place the detonator in relation to the TNT? Why can't I just hack the door with my sword? Why is the survivor of a great war, a hero with some sort of destiny, chasing after rats in toilets?

Yes that's kind-of the whole point.

Walk up to one OH GOD DAMNIT IT MOVED RIGHT WHEN I WAS GONNA SLASH AND HIT ME.

Go for next IT CHANGED DIRECTION WHY GOD WHY?!

Ok nice all de- **** I DIDNT EVEN SEE IT!

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

Yeah nice man, what's the first thing someone does when they want to place TNT next to the door? They throw it directly at it. Why doesn't it just place itself under the door after you throw it? And how would I know where to place the detonator in relation to the TNT? Why can't I just hack the door with my sword? Why is the survivor of a great war, a hero with some sort of destiny, chasing after rats in toilets?

You should really have suggested this in the first place, that is something I can actually implement.

Originally Posted by Crono

Childish rant

Is why I find it difficult to take you seriously.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

You should really have suggested this in the first place, that is something I can actually implement.

Cool.

Is why I find it difficult to take you seriously.

The irony.

[Galdor]

Hiss some more plz

[Knux]

Originally Posted by Door

wow how about using spoiler tags Thor? I feel no desire to play the quest now that I know exactly what it is from start to end. gj this is going right up on my list of worst spoilers, among "He's actually dead" and "Leia is the princess"

I subscribe to a strictly horror based community website, and they told you who the killer was in Scream 4. I was so pissed. No spoiler tags.

[Door]

When trying to market/improve a game, there is no such thing as a player who is wrong. If a player quits after 2 seconds, it is your problem. If a player finds the enemies difficult, it is your problem. If a player is bored by the quest, it is your problem. You shouldn't be making excuses for why a player is negatively experiencing or misinterpreting your game because it is never, ever their problem. Just about anyone who has even the slightest bit of marketing understanding or experience understands this fact.

Granted, there will always be the people who will never enjoy anything you make at all, but there's no way for you to genuinely identify those people, even after it seems like they've created a pattern. As somebody trying to make a game (server) that others will like, you have to assume that every problem someone cites is a valid problem that needs addressing. But more importantly: even if you honestly think it's not a valid suggestion and/or that it is being made by someone who represents .0000001% of the playerbase you are targeting, you should never state that publicly.

What you have been doing is inadvertently advertising your server as being the opposite of player-friendly. Your attitude is saying that the server is the way it is, and no matter what people have to complain about regarding it, they are wrong. You are making a massive mistake by toting this attitude around everywhere you go because you basically create an "us vs them" atmosphere, "developers vs players." You are alienating and patronizing the people who could be doing some valuable viral marketing for you.

To further illustrate my point, I'll use an analogy that I'm familiar with and like to use whenever this sort of thing comes up.

This "us vs them" effect is something that permeates a lot of social situations. If you've ever taken a course or two on education, you've definitely learned a little bit about it. One of the worst things a teacher can do is mock a student--any student, even one that s/he taught decades ago or one that the rest of the class despises. The reason is this: human beings naturally identify themselves in terms of categories.

A classroom full of students might group themselves into certain cliques internally and be in opposition to one another (student vs student). However, if a conflict arises between one of the students and the teacher, the cliques will be disregarded in favor of students vs teacher. No matter how strong those student vs student cliques were, they are still all students when faced with a separate hierarchical figure, so to speak. Teachers who mock students immediately become untrustworthy, and students lose a great deal of respect for them.

The point of deviating into that tangent was this: You are a developer/admin on Classic, making you at a separate hierarchical level from the players. This may only extend to the boundaries of Classic, but it still exists on that server. For that reason, you should assume that any non-staff member who plays on Classic will identify as "a player" rather than "a developer," and if you mock/berate/patronize/hand wave any player, even one that is disliked by others, then all players will still be naturally inclined to identify with that fellow player more than with you.*

So basically your attitude regarding criticism sucks, and you are sabotaging yourself.




*Sometimes the peer cliques are so strong or hierarchy is so convoluted that this phenomenon won't apply in the exact way I've described it. In general, however, it really does work out like this. Anyway, you should always assume it applies just for the sake of good practice. Plus, everyone likes Crono, so good luck with that one LOL!

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Door

When trying to market/improve a game, there is no such thing as a player who is wrong. If a player quits after 2 seconds, it is your problem. If a player finds the enemies difficult, it is your problem. If a player is bored by the quest, it is your problem. You shouldn't be making excuses for why a player is negatively experiencing or misinterpreting your game because it is never, ever their problem. Just about anyone who has even the slightest bit of marketing understanding or experience understands this fact.

I don't see how I'm making excuses here, all I've done is question why certain individuals have made a big point out of deciding to quit but without actually making any point as to why they quit.

Originally Posted by Door

Granted, there will always be the people who will never enjoy anything you make at all, but there's no way for you to genuinely identify those people, even after it seems like they've created a pattern. As somebody trying to make a game (server) that others will like, you have to assume that every problem someone cites is a valid problem that needs addressing. But more importantly: even if you honestly think it's not a valid suggestion and/or that it is being made by someone who represents .0000001% of the playerbase you are targeting, you should never state that publicly.

You're making it out as if we're ignoring some of the things that have been said, when it's actually been made quite clear that we understand the feeling and it's something we have plans in order to deviate towards in future.

Originally Posted by Door

What you have been doing is inadvertently advertising your server as being the opposite of player-friendly. Your attitude is saying that the server is the way it is, and no matter what people have to complain about regarding it, they are wrong. You are making a massive mistake by toting this attitude around everywhere you go because you basically create an "us vs them" atmosphere, "developers vs players." You are alienating and patronizing the people who could be doing some valuable viral marketing for you.

Well that's funny, one of the main complaints was that the Questing is too linear and streamlined towards keeping new players on track, and that this is too monotonous for an experienced gamer.
And again, it was made clear that we do not disagree with this notion and intend to work towards a different direction in future.
Somehow you see this as "us" saying "they" are "wrong", you're seeing something that quite simply isn't there.

Originally Posted by Door

The point of deviating into that tangent was this: You are a developer/admin on Classic, making you at a separate hierarchical level from the players. This may only extend to the boundaries of Classic, but it still exists on that server. For that reason, you should assume that any non-staff member who plays on Classic will identify as "a player" rather than "a developer," and if you mock/berate/patronize/hand wave any player, even one that is disliked by others, then all players will still be naturally inclined to identify with that fellow player more than with you.*

Again, I think you're seeing something that isn't there, all I've been trying to do is suggest that rather than say something like "it's annoying", it would be much better to actually describe how something is annoying, and then maybe we can go about changing it.

Originally Posted by Door

So basically your attitude regarding criticism sucks, and you are sabotaging yourself.

As it happens I've seen one specific suggestion as to how something within this quest can be improved, and I like the idea of it, yes that's a terrible attitude.

[Door]

Honestly you're just making more excuses and perpetuating the mistakes I've pointed out. If I were you, I'd take this as a cue to start showing more understanding an less arrogance. You might honestly think that people (including me) are incorrect in their assertions, but pointing that out is doing nothing positive for your image. Since you are representing Classic in terms of what you're saying and also simply the fact that you--the manager of Classic--are saying it, you are also doing nothing positive for Classic's image. It's true that no publicity is bad publicity in some situations, but on Graal, as we have seen, that will only get you so far.

You might think that you've just thwarted my points with your logic, but the simple fact that you attempted to do so is a perfect illustration of the case I was trying to make.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Door

Honestly you're just making more excuses and perpetuating the mistakes I've pointed out. If I were you, I'd take this as a cue to start showing more understanding an less arrogance. You might honestly think that people (including me) are incorrect in their assertions, but pointing that out is doing nothing positive for your image. Since you are representing Classic in terms of what you're saying and also simply the fact that you--the manager of Classic--are saying it, you are also doing nothing positive for Classic's image. It's true that no publicity is bad publicity in some situations, but on Graal, as we have seen, that will only get you so far.

You might think that you've just thwarted my points with your logic, but the simple fact that you attempted to do so is a perfect illustration of the case I was trying to make.

Again you're making it out as if I'm trying to say people are "wrong", and that I'm angrily trying to defend something, when I'm only trying to generate more constructive criticism that can be of use or can lead to an improvement.
There's nothing arrogant about that.