Petition to bring back the old playerworld system

[Inverness]

I believe the current system of renting playerworlds is choking the life out of Graal. There are so many playerworlds around now that there are simply not enough developers per playerworld to get any work done.

I believe Zodiac is the only classic playerworld to come out of the new playerworld system and go somewhere. I dunno why Zodiac is the exception but the number of successes since this system was introduced versus the number of successes before it should be a big clue-in about how well its working.

Nowadays almost everyone who thinks they have a good idea and wants to put time into something goes out and rents their own server instead of contributing to an existing one. And even if this person wants to contribute to an existing one, there are so many servers and so little good ones that their efforts go to waste.

The hosted tab seems to have little long term benefit as, again, Zodiac is the only server that I know of that has gone classic.

The best possible thing that can be done in the short term to try to save Graal would be to roll back to the old playerworld system so staff can be concentrated into a fewer number of servers so they all have a better chance of making it somewhere.

Edit: Most importantly people should not need to pay for a gold account to be able to work on these playerworlds.

Edit 2: WhiteDragon suggested I detail what the "old playerworld system" is, so here we go.

Basically, instead of people renting servers on their own and trying in vain to gather a good development team that can get things done in any reasonable amount of time, it would be required to already have a decent amount of content established beforehand before you could request a free server (evaluation required) to bring your content online and kick things into next gear. Of course in the generation of GS2, you can not really do that kind of stuff offline anymore, so a server like Testbed would be required to allow budding projects to develop to the point where they could obtain their own server. Basically this means that any under construction servers are already guaranteed to have a good amount of content--the foundation--in place. Developers interested in contributing could know that the server they're working on has already passed one level of evaluation and is most likely going somewhere.

[KrimsonSky]

Where do I sign :o

[Immolate]

I agree.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Inverness

I dunno why Zodiac is the exception

Because it filled in a gap that was left open by the then decaying Maloria.

[maximus_asinus]

signed

[Soala]

I definitively support this. I kind of forgot how the old playerworld system was since I never participated in it but still heard of it. Don't know if it would be a huge success, but hell it would sure bring worlds with a minimum quality in them.

*signs*

[fowlplay4]

Can't make money off the old way which is why they'll never go back to it, but I do agree that developers shouldn't have to pay for a gold sub.

It would be more realistic to have developer slots on servers, so they can have X amount of people work on the server for free.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Can't make money off the old way

Entirely false. More quality content would attract more people to Graal.

This is one of those risks you have to take in business, Stefan can either continue the current trend with Graal slowly dieing or take a risk that will most likely pay off in the end.

[Crow]

I agree. Nice idea indeed.

[Chompy]

The idea looks good on paper, IMO.

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Can't make money off the old way which is why they'll never go back to it, but I do agree that developers shouldn't have to pay for a gold sub.

It would be more realistic to have developer slots on servers, so they can have X amount of people work on the server for free.

This I fully agree on.

--

Originally Posted by Inverness

Entirely false. More quality content would attract more people to Graal.

This is one of those risks you have to take in business, Stefan can either continue the current trend with Graal slowly dieing or take a risk that will most likely pay off in the end.

How do you know?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Chompy

How do you know?

To make reference to Kaimetsu, how do you know the air you breathe is safe when you leave your house? Certain assumptions must be made, sometimes with risks.

However, while I agree with the catalyst of change, I would like to specify that Stefan plays a minimal role in game system decisions.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Chompy

How do you know?

Take a look at the classic server list, how many of those came around after the new system was introduced?

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Inverness

Of course in the generation of GS2, you can not really do that kind of stuff offline anymore, so a server like Testbed would be required to allow budding projects to develop to the point where they could obtain their own server.

Having multiple playerworlds on a single server. Isn't that kind of a bad idea? How would you segment the server? How would you control CPU usage, lag, etc?

[cbk1994]

Most of the servers rented are rented by people who have no idea how to develop. Most of the good developers tend to be working on successful servers or working on projects that may actually work out. Unfortunately, there are also projects by these good developers that fail due to lack of help, but if you remove the option to rent playerworlds, you'll just force people off.

I know I wouldn't stick around long if I couldn't keep developing just for the sake of it. I like being able to start my own server, even if it won't go far.

However I agree fully with not requiring gold to develop.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Most of the servers rented are rented by people who have no idea how to develop. Most of the good developers tend to be working on successful servers or working on projects that may actually work out. Unfortunately, there are also projects by these good developers that fail due to lack of help, but if you remove the option to rent playerworlds, you'll just force people off.

I know I wouldn't stick around long if I couldn't keep developing just for the sake of it. I like being able to start my own server, even if it won't go far.

However I agree fully with not requiring gold to develop.

If you remove the option to rent players developers will have to go to an existing playerworld if they want to contribute instead of attempting to work on a brand new project that will not get sufficient help to evolve beyond a waste of time and money.

I would think people would be more willing to develop if there weren't so many failed playerworlds.

I also wouldn't want you starting your own server if it takes away developers that could be working on other servers. Unless, however, you have a good idea and are confident about putting in the time and effort to make it to the classic tab. Managing a server and not being confident about its success is a road to disaster.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Inverness

If you remove the option to rent players developers will have to go to an existing playerworld if they want to contribute instead of attempting to work on a brand new project that will not get sufficient help to evolve beyond a waste of time and money.

I would think people would be more willing to develop if there weren't so many failed playerworlds.

I also wouldn't want you starting your own server if it takes away developers that could be working on other servers. Unless, however, you have a good idea and are confident about putting in the time and effort to make it to the classic tab. Managing a server and not being confident about its success is a road to disaster.

I don't see how telling developers they cannot rent their own server and must work on an existing project, thereby forcing some to leave, is going to help Graal.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I don't see how telling developers they cannot rent their own server and must work on an existing project, thereby forcing some to leave, is going to help Graal.

If their project is that awesome, important, and unique, then then they would need to work on enough content to earn a server, just as it was done in the old system.

Additionally, look at the classic tab. Everything there except Zodiac was produced under the old system, that should tell you enough about the success of each in bringing new playerworlds to Graal.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Inverness

If their project is that awesome, important, and unique, then then they would need to work on enough content to earn a server, just as it was done in the old system.

Additionally, look at the classic tab. Everything there except Zodiac was produced under the old system, that should tell you enough about the success of each in bringing new playerworlds to Graal.

And what if the developers just want to play around with scripts and make something cool?

[salesman]

Do not like this idea. I think players should be able to waste their money if they so choose. A project isn't suddenly going to be more likely to succeed just because you make people jump through hoops to start it. The UC servers really aren't stealing good developers anyways..

I do however agree that people should NOT be required to buy gold to work on a server. Server slots please???

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

And what if the developers just want to play around with scripts and make something cool?

Testbed.

Originally Posted by salesman

Do not like this idea. I think players should be able to waste their money if they so choose. A project isn't suddenly going to be more likely to succeed just because you make people jump through hoops to start it.

A project will be more likely to succeed if it has a clearer direction and already has content produced before gaining its own server.

Methinks history is the viability of this idea.

Originally Posted by salesman

The UC servers really aren't stealing good developers anyways..

Whether or not they are good developers is an opinion. Everyone has to start somewhere.

[geneticfrog]

Originally Posted by Inverness

it would be required to already have a decent amount of content established beforehand before you could request a free server (evaluation required) to bring your content online and kick things into next gear. Of course in the generation of GS2, you can not really do that kind of stuff offline anymore, so a server like Testbed would be required to allow budding projects to develop to the point where they could obtain their own server. Basically this means that any under construction servers are already guaranteed to have a good amount of content--the foundation--in place. Developers interested in contributing could know that the server they're working on has already passed one level of evaluation and is most likely going somewhere.

In my opinion the best thing graal could do to make MONEY is have the above implemented and add changes to the "in game shop". Instead of of making people pay per month and making them pay for servers. The majority of the community is people who are young. They dont have a visa or master card or even jobs usually and getting their parent to caugh up the cash every month(s)/year is not an easy task with such high prices.

I believe making graal 100% free to play for life (BIG SELLER) is the way to go. Instead offer benefits to people who will "support" graal. If all the servers that go up work along side with the management. Basically people would pay cash for stuff such as: mounts, weapons, supporter only weapons, Server money, hats,instruments,starter packages, EXP for money, cars, all quest complete package, basically offer it for money everything that takes time and is hard/boring/long to get/do on graal. all kinds of stuff could be sold for cheap prices. You can offer them for in game currency "gelats".

The current system, the new players discovering graal are usually pushed away beacause of the trial mode with observer. People really hate observer mode with a passion. IF graal was free 100% the numbers would boom, people would flock in larger numbers not being scared away by prices and observer mode pressuring you to buy p2p. They would instead come to love the classic server. With the much larger number of players, there are A LOT more chances of the ingame items to be sold in large numbers but in smaller prices. More players, more servers more sales.

Picture just a noob and hes constantly getting killed on era beacause he cant get a good gun or he doesnt want to dig for hours and hours for epic weapons, he can just buy it with his realy money.

Even kids would have a much easier time getting their parents to buy something for like 5-15$ over the cheapest thing i see in the graal shop for 35$ (CAD).

Take it from evony and other "free to play forever" games.

Even look at the Iphone servers.... they have like server numbers almsot hitting 1000!!! imagine how well the pc version would do.... if graal was free forever. (besides having a lot of advantages if you buy stuff.)

edit: potions, unlimited gas/battery, extra exp for certain time, miningexp, fishing exp, lumbercutting exp, offer levels for money, extra bags, all kinds.... I dont play zone or GK but im sure theres lots of stuff there you could put in a shop offer for gelats.

[Stephen]

It may be important to refer to my very brief blog entry on the subject, "Playersworlds & Rented Servers".

My main questions becomes:
Can improved developer longevity (paying period), improved development quality, and higher playerworld player count make more money than rented servers which dilute the development pool?

[geneticfrog]

Originally Posted by Stephen

It may be important to refer to my very brief blog entry on the subject, "Playersworlds & Rented Servers".

My main questions becomes:
Can improved developer longevity (paying period), improved development quality, and higher playerworld player count make more money than rented servers which dilute the development pool?

The thing about the current system is that its not new player friendly. If they took away the accounts with classic servers free for life so many people would have quit... We are really the people who are keeping graal alive. Some untold heros too who dont come on forums. You have no money if you have no community... Graal IS slowly dying beacause there are so many other games ou there that are free....

Want a WOW feeling game but free? check out Runes of Magic, its free for life uses a shop and is only getting bigger.

Evony is free for life and has a shop that lets you buy items to speed stuff up if you dont have time. Its making a lot of money... they both are... You see evony adds everywhere now... EVERYWHERE some are half porn.

anyways, If graal was free more people would obviously mean more development. More players joining learning the art of dev. I figure at the start of the switch dev wont go up that much since its hard to learn. However the The numbers would probably go up 10x and instead of losing players everyyear and increasing prices... you only gain more and more players if its FREE. The main aspect of graal right now is not the lack of servers... its the lack of players. Focus on making the people happy and the rest will come. As for the quality of the development that depends on the individual. Graal is more of a big chat chill spot then about dev but of course with more players naturally more people will learn in time...

10-20x more players + cash shops for people who have jobs for example... they spend their hours at work not on graal mining.

THe computer has been around a long time and IS the main form of gaming... there are so many people out there in the internet on their computers compared to iphones who is hitting about 1k players.

I KNOW that if they switch to free and offer ingame items for real cash for people who acutally work and dont have time to grind for exp. Kids who beg their parents as well... since if its cheap prices people obviously will buy it more...

100$ for a year of graal gold?.... i Pay 60$ ish for xbox live ...

[ffcmike]

I don't know if anybody knows the facts regarding Graals Income, I don't know for anything for sure either, but I'd place my bet that it is the Playerworld rental policy which is by far the largest contributor.

It's depressing that some people throw their money towards something they have little to no chance of accomplishment with, just the other day a friend I hadn't seen log on for over 2 years came back (lets say he does not know how to script) and bought a server for what I recall being his 3rd time despite the previous time never resulting in the server even becoming a Development Project.

And then you get adolescents likely with too much money who would perhaps strongly believe that they can succeed, but ultimately end up wasting the time of new Developers and PWA members alike when acts like content theft and server destruction kick in.

Put yourself in the shoes of Stefan and Unixmad however, and you'd probably welcome this.
Although I can agree that this policy is contributing to Graal being killed off as a "Game", while this may be covering the costs right now, chances are Graal will lose it's income as a "Development Platform" through decreased interest as the enjoyment of the "Game" gets worse through unsuccessful Development, there needs to be a happy medium that allows Graal to co-exist as both a Game and Development Platform.

[superzx14]

I agree with this. Players shouldn't have to have gold to be able to develop on a server.

[Hiro]

doesn't it suck how money ruins everything?

[Immolate]

This might sound really stupid but what about an offline version of GS2 that parses scripts as if a server exists but there actually isn't? You can still trigger to the server, but it still all be clientside. You'd still be able to script as if you're on a server but you're actually not. Of course, you'd need to harden on the do's and do-not's of client/server scripting but it could work.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Immolate

This might sound really stupid but what about an offline version of GS2 that parses scripts as if a server exists but there actually isn't? You can still trigger to the server, but it still all be clientside. You'd still be able to script as if you're on a server but you're actually not. Of course, you'd need to harden on the do's and do-not's of client/server scripting but it could work.

Basically you're talking about including the NPC-server with the client, which Stefan will never do for security reasons. It's been requested before.

[Immolate]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Basically you're talking about including the NPC-server with the client, which Stefan will never do for security reasons. It's been requested before.

My guess is the NPC-Server does much more than just parse GS2 code that's meant for serverside.

[tempandrew]

The economic side of this is kind of confusing. There is no doubt that the player count was indeed much much higher when the prices were lower, and I have no doubts that the price raising and especially the removal of lifetime classic is at fault for such a huge drop in the activity on Graal. However, the new prices that are proposed by Unix/Stefan do bring in a lot more money with monthly subscriptions. But consider this, exactly how far do you think this will go? More players will drop, they'll need more money, so they raise prices. More people give up on paying that monthly fee, the price rises. To be honest, I think if Graal would be changed just to that old one-time lifetime fee of maybe more than before (used to be $19, could be raised to $25 or so), and the selection of 1, 2, 3, 6, 12 months of graal at a time at maybe a few bucks a month.

However, the playerworld charge is what I find really to be insanity. In most cases, servers that are in UC are not helpful of Graal's future, and will probably never prosper merely because the staff isn't disciplined or serious enough. But sometimes servers are actually potential future pieces of Graal, so you're really paying to give Unix more content for his game. However, a big problem with actually trying to make a quality server is the problem mentioned before, the shortage of players. A shortage of players means a shortage of developers, which means a shortage of production. I propose the idea of free server purchasing with occasional inspection by multiple global staff assigned to inspection. If the server does not seem to be keeping up with development, it is shut down and no money is lost, no extra server space is taken from Graal. On the other hand, some servers may prosper, and eventually contribute to the game that Graal advertises. I hate the idea of paying $70 every 6 months (over $10 a month!) to attempt to help Graal develop into a larger and better game. I just don't understand that.

Graal is falling into a limbo here. Servers can be lent out to any idiot and worked on by any amount of unqualified workers. If there were a smaller selection of servers that actually pass their occasional inspections, the needle in a haystack players that actually have good developmental talent that are working at deadbeat servers can help contribute to the quality servers that have a fighting chance to become classic. Would work out really well in my opinion.

And maybe, since i know some people do this, there'd be an option to buy "Dev Servers", merely for development testing and building and maybe just for having fun that you could purchase without the fear of failing inspection. Those would require monthly payments.

I probably just typed a big waste of time since Unix is going to be his usual self and continue with his own ideas, but I guess it's worth a shot.

[Rufus]

I haven't really been following the argument, but I'll throw in my two cents about your idea.

I remember in 2001 when I attempted to create a server with my cousin and it was offline. I still have the files on floppy disk somewhere. The server itself was just Classic but in a different setting, but that was the same for every other server. Mithica, Babylon, Andor, Providence; all servers that were released to the public but with little difference between them, and look at where they are now. When the Playerworld Renting system came out I made the purchase and worked with people like Tony Rivers, Massokre, and Mykel, but nothing came out of that either because it was more about having our own staff tools than having an outlet to develop. In 2007 I thought I had the right ideas and worked with people like Tom, Yen, and Crono but again nothing came of it either. The stuff we made on that server still looks nice today, but we struggled on a direction and there was a constant battle with motivation because of how the game was (and still is) in general.

Times have changed, and clone servers are no longer accepted into the mix. We're striving something better, but there's always a constant battle against something. While I might just fail at coordinating and developing, I don't really believe I learned anything from any of those experiences I had either. It wasn't until I saw someone who had initiative and creativity (Konidias) that my outlook drastically changed. Being offline or online, it didn't make a difference, and it didn't magically change my ability to create a decent server. People are still going to want to work on their own projects because they'll still have that opportunity to do so, even if it is just a tiny chance of being accepted. People are still going to lack the motivation and skills needed to pull off something great. People are still going to struggle to get developers to work on what they believe are "promising" projects. People are still going to fail at making servers.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I haven't really been following the argument, but I'll throw in my two cents about your idea.

<snip>

So we need some device to build the motivation of developers and potential developers.

[Imperialistic]

Inverness, sounds good but uhh.. You can't base the whole arguement around the "more Classic servers means more players buying subscriptions" thing.

And I totally have to agree with what Rufus said, he made absolute sense.

[12171217]

You guys care too much.

Bottom line is more money is being made with this system in the short term. Nobody's taking risks here.