You're welcome, Eurocenter

[SlikRick]

Originally Posted by Vinka

Well, that's just a risk you'd have to take.

If you don't enjoy the process of the developing it, it would be pretty pointless however.

Pretty much. If you don't enjoy what you're doing and are only doing it for money, you are going to end up with half assed content.

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by SlikRick

Pretty much. If you don't enjoy what you're doing and are only doing it for money, you are going to end up with half assed content.

Graal isn't the only 2D mmo client ever made in the history on the universe. If I had to choose between Graal and another engine with better support and features and the deciding factor is whether I could make money from Graal or not then yeah, I'd pick Graal, but otherwise I wouldn't waste my time.

I've already started making some engine agnostic content (mostly graphics) and they're not half assed, so cheers bro.

[SlikRick]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

Graal isn't the only 2D mmo client ever made in the history on the universe.

OMG no way?

[Galdor]

Imagine a community with competent moderators that has a mind of their own as well beside the rulebook they keep under their pillow every night, but also sane rules that don't just exist to just piss people off, perhaps giving you the ability to criticize without being locked, closed and bananed (not even allowed to talk about that, like wtf not? so ridiculous) but don't get me wrong they do improve (sometimes) like remember when we wasn't even allowed to post youtube links in that popular music thread without asking for permission first... but then again it was moved to the lounge so that doesn't really count

Anyways, and administrators that listen and take part of their small but cuddly cute dying community, the one making all the rules don't post anything himself and have no clue what hes customers want and the other one takes like a half year to get a forum reply from and then only get a message that says "hmm what do you mean?".

A community where the developers are appreciated for making all the content, get good updates like easier and upgraded tools to work with and of course not having to pay to dev (server renting I can understand but developing... seriously?)

And like listen to the awesome ideas that people post, like my 3d terrain idea (yes it is awesome) also has layer tiles, premade scripts and stuff like that baked into it, and is from 2009! and still haven't even got a single care.

[kia345]

yeah but galdor, they're trying to make money, so any of the neglect and short ends of the stick we get are okay!! /blindjustification


I miss indy devs with big hearts, coding from their bed in their NY flat. Slapping shareware.txt files into their game .rars, or asking only that you get them a (root)beer if you ever see them in public as payment for the game.

[Crono]

very romantic kia

[Unkownsoldier]

Originally Posted by Galdor

Imagine a community with competent moderators that has a mind of their own as well beside the rulebook they keep under their pillow every night, but also sane rules that don't just exist to just piss people off, perhaps giving you the ability to criticize without being locked, closed and bananed (not even allowed to talk about that, like wtf not? so ridiculous) but don't get me wrong they do improve (sometimes) like remember when we wasn't even allowed to post youtube links in that popular music thread without asking for permission first... but then again it was moved to the lounge so that doesn't really count

Anyways, and administrators that listen and take part of their small but cuddly cute dying community, the one making all the rules don't post anything himself and have no clue what hes customers want and the other one takes like a half year to get a forum reply from and then only get a message that says "hmm what do you mean?".

A community where the developers are appreciated for making all the content, get good updates like easier and upgraded tools to work with and of course not having to pay to dev (server renting I can understand but developing... seriously?)

And like listen to the awesome ideas that people post, like my 3d terrain idea (yes it is awesome) also has layer tiles, premade scripts and stuff like that baked into it, and is from 2009! and still haven't even got a single care.

I understand that you would like to develop for "free" because it would help the game, draw new/old players in, and better your own skills which we assume Admins want.

Yet, truth be told being able to develop is a service they provide us. In return we must pay for this service, like most other companies require. For us to benefit off of their programs for free, would no longer make them a profitable company, but a charity. Take a look at it from this perspective, you want to learn self defense, so you take up a local martial arts class (costing you money.) It would be nice for them to teach you for free, because it would help protect you and others, which is a good thing. Yet, they like EuroCenter, is a business and they need profits for what they provide. What they provide benefits us, and they are kind enough to give us development tools (which a lot of games don't normally provide).

I know they have progressed from updating the computer client version and have moved on to mobile devices/facebook, so in all likeliness the new development tool updates they promised(?) would probably be the final developmental update for the game (other than scripting variables etc.) So it is just time for us players to accept that they aren't our friend, we are the customer they are the provider.

[Galdor]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

Yet, truth be told being able to develop is a service they provide us. In return we must pay for this service, like most other companies require. For us to benefit off of their programs for free, would no longer make them a profitable company, but a charity. Take a look at it from this perspective, you want to learn self defense, so you take up a local martial arts class (costing you money.) It would be nice for them to teach you for free, because it would help protect you and others, which is a good thing. Yet, they like EuroCenter, is a business and they need profits for what they provide. What they provide benefits us, and they are kind enough to give us development tools (which a lot of games don't normally provide).

How is making content for them and at the same time paying money for that the same as paying for martial arts classes?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Galdor

How is making content for them and at the same time paying money for that the same as paying for martial arts classes?

What? You've never taken a martial arts class that you've had to pay for and teach yourself?

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

I understand that you would like to develop for "free" because it would help the game, draw new/old players in, and better your own skills which we assume Admins want.

Yet, truth be told being able to develop is a service they provide us. In return we must pay for this service, like most other companies require. For us to benefit off of their programs for free, would no longer make them a profitable company, but a charity. Take a look at it from this perspective, you want to learn self defense, so you take up a local martial arts class (costing you money.) It would be nice for them to teach you for free, because it would help protect you and others, which is a good thing. Yet, they like EuroCenter, is a business and they need profits for what they provide. What they provide benefits us, and they are kind enough to give us development tools (which a lot of games don't normally provide).

I know they have progressed from updating the computer client version and have moved on to mobile devices/facebook, so in all likeliness the new development tool updates they promised(?) would probably be the final developmental update for the game (other than scripting variables etc.) So it is just time for us players to accept that they aren't our friend, we are the customer they are the provider.

Yes, they are the provider and we are the customers. However, what we are discussing is if they are a good provider.


Also, there is no need for an analogy. The situation is as simple as this:

We are paying to develop content for Graal. We get no money from the content we make.


Sure it's legal for them to do this, but it's hardly a good model. It means that all the skilled developers will leave because they aren't getting anything out of this deal. It also just generally annoys everyone because it smells like a scam. This isn't theoretical, it's really what happens (proof: look at the this thread and the dozens like it before, and then look at how fast staff disappear from servers after only short stays).

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

We are paying to develop content for Graal. We get no money from the content we make.


Sure it's legal for them to do this, but it's hardly a good model. It means that all the skilled developers will leave because they aren't getting anything out of this deal. It also just generally annoys everyone because it smells like a scam. This isn't theoretical, it's really what happens (proof: look at the this thread and the dozens like it before, and then look at how fast staff disappear from servers after only short stays).

That's pretty succinct. End of day, Graal needs an incentive program for developers.

[DustyPorViva]

You know, usually when engine providers make you pay for development tools it's so you can sell your work commercially. Not only do we not get a single cent, but they take our work and make a profit off of it.

[fowlplay4]

I don't think I would have developed for Graal as long as I have had I had to actually pay to do so.

[skillmaster19]

If you are a scripter and hate reading, skip to the bottom.

All of the experienced developers should all suddenly stop developing for Graal, especially those working on mobile and facebook servers. There aren't that many amazing scripters left on Graal, maybe 10-20 at most. Then Stefan will be forced to script everything himself, "hire" inexperienced developers, or speak with Unixmad to actually give developers some kind of incentive. Facebook Graal is going to be huge, and with the huge income from iPhone, he should easily be able to hire & pay the best of the best developers to work on the mobile and Facebook version of Classic. I am sure most of them would work a few hours a day for a little extra money, not being paid as full time jobs, but paid for completing specific projects. There are plenty of decent LAT's, so that won't be a problem. Even if there isn't, Stefan could easily announce level development to the public and offer admin positions to people who master level development, it really only takes a few weeks to learn.(few days to learn, few weeks to actually tile right)
Thousands of iPhone players would be willing to make graphics just to be an admin on the server, so that won't need paying either. However, scripting requires several months to learn and years of experience to master.

TO SCRIPTERS:
We need to organize a day for us all to stop scripting all at once. There aren't that many great scripters on Graal, so it won't be that difficult. I do not consider myself an amazing scripter, don't think I am trying to sound like me stopping scripting will do anything. However, many others quitting will help.


To Players:
If you are a Gold subscription, don't renew, and stefan will see that graal needs to go fully free to play and not just removed observer mode. Zodiac and Era already added gelat shops, why should they still have limited heads?
I understand this is difficult, but it may help in graal becoming free to play forever.

If you are a classic subscription, don't bother quitting as Stefan isn't making any more money off of you, other than you raising the playercount,thus attracting more players.

If you are a trial and for some reason on the forums, don't subscribe. Graal will likely become free to play soon and your gelats will likely only become good for in game cash shops.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by skillmaster19

TO SCRIPTERS:
We need to organize a day for us all to stop scripting all at once. There aren't that many great scripters on Graal, so it won't be that difficult. I do not consider myself an amazing scripter, don't think I am trying to sound like me stopping scripting will do anything. However, many others quitting will help.

Stefan will be continuing at his own pace with whatever is the priority project regardless of something like this. The only people that would suffer from this is players as it will only be delaying already rare updates, which some developers are quite eager to complete, others are paying for the ability do create them. Though one day isn't really going to be significant anyway.

I think it's important that people continue to discuss positive ways forward rather than ways to conspire against upper management or protest, it might seem like this type of discussion is ultimately ignored but even Stefan has hinted at this possibility of incentives in the past.

[fowlplay4]

I'm sure they'd rather pay the commissioned artists (the people making their iPhone graphics and websites) and so forth than pay some of the talented people in the community.

Plain and simple like Stephen said: Developers need incentive.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

Sure it's legal for them to do this, but it's hardly a good model.

Yeah, a model such as this will never work. It's not a perfect example, but there are still undeniable comparisons.

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

Could there be more updates for developers? Should their be more appreciation for the developers? Sure. But, you're all fully capable of deciding if the money is worth the enjoyment/effort you put in.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Mykel

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

This isn't entirely true. Not everybody develops just for their own or their friends enjoyment, some do aspire to make money for them self through their work being sold by Eurocenter, and I can vouch that Graal management is willing to negotiate something which suits both sides.
You also have to consider that work is being sold regardless of the intention of its author, and that more often than not this is a form of graphic, a product not of Graal's development tools, nor are they necessarily being uploaded through a development tool (RC).

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Mykel

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

This is where you're wrong. Developers and players alike have been shafted over and over throughout the years. Some developers DO do it to try to help Graal, to keep Graal interested and alive, and more importantly to give other players something to enjoy. This is what the whole thread is about. Not every developer is alike, but I know a lot of developers out there that do it for others, not for Graal or for themselves.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

This isn't entirely true. Not everybody develops just for their own or their friends enjoyment, some do aspire to make money for them self through their work being sold by Eurocenter, and I can vouch that Graal management is willing to negotiate something which suits both sides.
You also have to consider that work is being sold regardless of the intention of its author, and that more often than not this is a form of graphic, a product not of Graal's development tools, nor are they necessarily being uploaded through a development tool (RC).

If you are seriously trying to make any sort of money through graal development, you're kind of crazy. Unless of course you make a proposition directly with Graal management. But, doing little side projects that never materialize doesn't really mean much.

The servers that actually have actively used content have always been made for the players and no one else. Players have always demanded and complained about lack of content from the staff (see: other players). How many of you, while creating content, are doing it for the better of Graal (aside from gold server developers)?

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

This is where you're wrong. Developers and players alike have been shafted over and over throughout the years. Some developers DO do it to try to help Graal, to keep Graal interested and alive, and more importantly to give other players something to enjoy. This is what the whole thread is about. Not every developer is alike, but I know a lot of developers out there that do it for others, not for Graal or for themselves.

This thread kind of proves that most developers don't have Graal's interest at heart, but their own. That isn't a bad thing. Players should always hold their own money, support, and related interests above that of the game, but you're playing both sides of the coin here, dusty.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Mykel

If you are seriously trying to make any sort of money through graal development, you're kind of crazy. Unless of course you make a proposition directly with Graal management. But, doing little side projects that never materialize doesn't really mean much.

I'm not saying that myself or anybody else is seriously expecting to make some form of significant income through Graal, it should be thought of as more of a bonus or reward on-top of ones normal intentions, plus I don't think it's unfair for anybody to hope for a cut in the hypothetical event of their work directly making a significant amount of money for Graal.

Originally Posted by Mykel

The servers that actually have actively used content have always been made for the players and no one else. Players have always demanded and complained about lack of content from the staff (see: other players). How many of you, while creating content, are doing it for the better of Graal (aside from gold server developers)?

I would say that this only right to a certain extent.
It may not be someone's primary intention to better Graal through their work, but quite often this will be a secondary or tertiary intention. As an example a personal hope of mine is that Classic will help better Graal's ability to accommodate genuinely new players.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Mykel

How many of you, while creating content, are doing it for the better of Graal (aside from gold server developers)?

I consider myself one. When I worked on something I did it so players would enjoy it. If I didn't finish it I made sure other developers could have it so maybe it would make their jobs a little easier and maybe players would still get to enjoy something new.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Mykel

Yeah, a model such as this will never work. It's not a perfect example, but there are still undeniable comparisons.

And no one said Graal was 100% imperfect. Just that they are major kinks.

Originally Posted by Mykel

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

I think this is just semantics.

One of the realities is this: I make content, and it goes on their servers. They have full rights, and are free to copy it, drop a price tag on it, and sell it to other people with not a dime back to me. This exact thing has happened, in fact. (It wasn't my work, but it was other players's work, so the point still holds.)


Of course, I have agreed to this deal, and it is fully legal, no disagreement there. But why would they do this? It certainly isn't drawing a good image of them, and it certainly is scaring a lot of talented people away. It is also the source of a lot of negativity in the game, due to how mixed the developers and players are.

[oo_jazz_oo]

The system of "You pay us to make stuff, we sell it, you get nothing" will only work for so long...
Look at Graal development now. Theres not much going on...maybe with a few servers, but as a whole, nothing is happening. UN is a pretty good example of that.

Once the developers get tired, and once there aren't any more good developers, what is Stefan going to do? Re-re-release classic as another server? Oh wait, hes doing that already.

The least Stefan could do is give us adequate development tools. -_-
They charge us to make them content, dont give us proper tools, then charge us to play.
If they dont want to give a cut of the money to developers, couldnt they at least help us make content?

They throw some 10 year old tools at us, then take the content we make with them, slap em on a new platform, and re-sell it.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

=Of course, I have agreed to this deal, and it is fully legal, no disagreement there. But why would they do this? It certainly isn't drawing a good image of them, and it certainly is scaring a lot of talented people away. It is also the source of a lot of negativity in the game, due to how mixed the developers and players are.

Why complain now? This has been going on for about a decade now, on and increasing scale, yet this is the first universally agreed upon "Stefan/Unix are leeches" debates.

Nothing major has changed, other than them charging to upload shields. Remember when they decided to charge you to play certain servers? And, then charge you to play classic servers. And, then take away the "lifetime classic" subscription?

You've been paying money to upload (use the tools, same thing) in one way or another for years now.

Originally Posted by oo_jazz_oo

They charge us to make them content, dont give us proper tools, then charge us to play.

Because, that is the game! That is what Graal is! For the past 5 years or so, I would imagine that like 50% of the playerbase was involved in development somewhere or another. And, that's probably low balling it.

They are charging you for the game. You aren't doing graal any favors. You're making something for yourself and your friends. Does graal, in some way or another, benefit from that? Yes. That's the give and take.

[salesman]

You can spin it however you want, but it comes down to one simple fact: Graal makes money off of content made by paying customers without giving them any kind of compensation. Do they have to give us compensation? No. Should they? Maybe. If they did, I doubt it would be anything extraordinary.

If you really think you have what it takes to make money off of your work, go somewhere else. There are plenty of free game engines/frameworks out there that you can use. However, keep in mind that the Graal engine is extremely easy to use in comparison. Graal gives you an already fully functional game before you write a single script or create a single graphic.

edit: you can't do something for free and then turn around and complain that you're not getting paid. You knew what you were getting yourself into. It's not like they're lying to you about what they offer.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by salesman

you can't do something for free and then turn around and complain that you're not getting paid. You knew what you were getting yourself into. It's not like they're lying to you about what they offer.

Just because I've agreed to something doesn't make that thing good. There is room for improvement and I'd like to see it happen.

Originally Posted by Mykel

Why complain now? This has been going on for about a decade now, on and increasing scale, yet this is the first universally agreed upon "Stefan/Unix are leeches" debates.

Nothing major has changed, other than them charging to upload shields. Remember when they decided to charge you to play certain servers? And, then charge you to play classic servers. And, then take away the "lifetime classic" subscription?

You've been paying money to upload (use the tools, same thing) in one way or another for years now.

I can't speak for others, but personally I still play this game and still develop on this game, so every moment of this sub-par situation affects me directly. Why would I not discuss it, given that?

[Mykel]

This issssss graal. How is that so hard to understand? User content. The game has always been user content. Nothing has changed except the amount of money Eurocenter is making from it.

It honestly is as simple as saying if you don't want to not get paid for your work being used to make money, then don't contribute your work. If they start charging $40 a month to play, no one is going to play. There is a breaking point for everyone. Decide yours.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Mykel

This issssss graal. How is that so hard to understand? User content. The game has always been user content.

This is also only true to a certain extent, the game has indeed always been user content, but user content is not how the game has always been marketed.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

This is also only true to a certain extent, the game has indeed always been user content, but user content is not how the game has always been marketed.

When has the game ever been marketed?

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Mykel

It honestly is as simple as saying if you don't want to not get paid for your work being used to make money, then don't contribute your work. If they start charging $40 a month to play, no one is going to play. There is a breaking point for everyone. Decide yours.

I'm not sure why this needs to be viewed in such a black and white way.

I enjoy plenty of things about Graal which can't really be found other places. Wouldn't it be natural to try and improve Graal rather than drop it entirely?

[oo_jazz_oo]

Yes, that is Graal. But its getting worse.

Before, you payed to develop; not just for your friends. If you make a server specifically to entertain your friends, idk whats wrong with you.
I develop to entertain the Graal population, because I like to make stuff people like.

Subscription costs and server costs used to be much much lower. So, it wasn't horrible to pay to develop.
Then subscription prices skyrocketed, along with server rentals. Stefan began taking content from PC and slapping it on other platforms...
Thats when players start to complain.

I don't even mind paying to develop...I put up with the crappy tools they provide...
But its sad when I see other peoples hard work slapped onto the iPhone, no credit...no compensation...and Stefan rakes in the dough.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Mykel

When has the game ever been marketed?

My point is that if you go to the Graal Online website Zone and Graal Kingdoms are promoted as their own game with no mention of user content despite also largely consisting of this.
PlayerWorlds are now promoted with "Create your own game" second to "Play a player-built world", but this is only a comparatively recent thing. Prior to V5 they were promoted as official games in just the same way as GK and Zone.

[Ducati_Link]

If I had 1$ a day for all the days iv been developing, I would be more than happy.

[sssssssssss]

You guys need to stop whining and just quit, seriously. Each one of you showing any real debate in here is quite talented. Heck, I'd love to work with any and all of you making a game if you're interested. Graal is useless, dead, and going further down the **** hole. There's a time when you just say; You know what? I am better than this, I'm moving on.

Each one of you, except a few tards, are saying that basically, so just move on. And I forgot the one dude, but he's right, the best way is to stop coding, doing gfx, and such. It's not rebelling against upper management because you're not an employee ... you're just some dirt bag to them. Besides the fact its far worse to be retarded and let yourself and your talent get used than to "stick it to the man".

[Vinka]

Originally Posted by sssssssssss

You guys need to stop whining and just quit, seriously. Each one of you showing any real debate in here is quite talented. Heck, I'd love to work with any and all of you making a game if you're interested. Graal is useless, dead, and going further down the **** hole. There's a time when you just say; You know what? I am better than this, I'm moving on.

Each one of you, except a few tards, are saying that basically, so just move on. And I forgot the one dude, but he's right, the best way is to stop coding, doing gfx, and such. It's not rebelling against upper management because you're not an employee ... you're just some dirt bag to them. Besides the fact its far worse to be retarded and let yourself and your talent get used than to "stick it to the man".

Thanks.

Those words just gave me the extra push to forever quit what I had been working on for months.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Vinka

Thanks.

Those words just gave me the extra push to forever quit what I had been working on for months.

You're taking encouragement from one of the biggest idiots

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by kia345

You're taking encouragement from one of the biggest idiots

And the non-ad-hominem view:

Graal is a good platform for starting out, meeting people, and having fun. I don't think it's dead, useless, or going into the ground.

But, it has major problems, including ones that are core to its model and might not be fixed. Leaving could be the right choice.

All this said, it is best to not make decisions when you're burned out or annoyed about something. Often resting on an idea can lead to a choice you'll be happier with in the future.

[Admins]

I think this topic has been discussed enough now. I hope players still have fun playing the game and creating servers and developing. If there is content which has been used without authorization then please contact us.