Change to Save Points

[ffcmike]

Throughout the 3 phases of released Questing content so far we had used a system where players would have to find Save Spheres strategically placed nearby locations they could possibly die within for the purpose of setting the location you are warped back to, and thus ensuring you don't have to travel such a large distance to get back.

One problem that has occurred quite regularly is that players would simply just head straight to their destination and not look for these Save Spheres, some completely unaware that they exist.

We have now removed Save Spheres and implemented a system where it is possible for you to set your save point simply by staying still within any bed on the server for 15 seconds from the point you are fully healed, after 5 seconds a timer will be displayed to indicate this is happening until a final display confirms it, you can also prevent this from happening by pausing.
Both your normal and dungeon-specific Save Points are now listed within the Notebook weapon.

Certain character/sign messages have been changed to explain how to do this, the hope is that this is something that will be instilled in new players so that they know they can do this before any Quest or remember it in the event of respawning a long distance from their destination, there is also the chance that people could discover how to do it accidentally incase they haven't read any of the messages explaining it.

Edit:
Once in the bed you now have to press A, a darkness fade effect will occur and the whole thing will take 5 seconds.

[jacob_bald6225]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Throughout the 3 phases of released Questing content so far we had used a system where players would have to find Save Spheres strategically placed nearby locations they could possibly die within for the purpose of setting the location you are warped back to, and thus ensuring you don't have to travel such a large distance to get back.

One problem that has occurred quite regularly is that players would simply just head straight to their destination and not look for these Save Spheres, some completely unaware that they exist.

We have now removed Save Spheres and implemented a system where it is possible for you to set your save point simply by staying still within any bed on the server for 15 seconds from the point you are fully healed, after 5 seconds a timer will be displayed to indicate this is happening until a final display confirms it, you can also prevent this from happening by pausing.
Both your normal and dungeon-specific Save Points are now listed within the Notebook weapon.

Certain character/sign messages have been changed to explain how to do this, the hope is that this is something that will be instilled in new players so that they know they can do this before any Quest or remember it in the event of respawning a long distance from their destination, there is also the chance that people could discover how to do it accidentally incase they haven't read any of the messages explaining it.

Interesting, I like this.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by jacob_bald6225

[DustyPorViva]

Hmm, I'm curious... why go through such complications just for a spawn point? Waiting around can be somewhat troublesome for some of the more impatient players. I know 15 seconds may not seem like a lot but when you're on the go(actively questing), that can be a long time.

Though I more bring this up because a spawn point is not the biggest advantage in the world, and it seems like a lot of work for a minor thing. Why not just have it checkpoint automatically at certain places?

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Though I more bring this up because a spawn point is not the biggest advantage in the world, and it seems like a lot of work for a minor thing. Why not just have it checkpoint automatically at certain places?

The point you begin a particular quest or task could well be a long distance from the location of it itself, it's also possible that in future there could be baddies on the overworld roaming around somewhere between your start point and destination where if your Save Point was automatically set at both start and end you could still have the same problem.

We also plan to implement side content later on where having Save Points set automatically within mainstream content could set a location far from ideal when you're attempting one-off Quests, this solution makes it entirely up to yourself to think about where the best place to set a Save Point would be.

[12171217]

Why can't you just press A when you're in the bed instead or something? You could make it painfully obvious that they're save points, dim the screen and push some text over.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

The point you begin a particular quest or task could well be a long distance from the location of it itself, it's also possible that in future there could be baddies on the overworld roaming around somewhere between your start point and destination where if your Save Point was automatically set at both start and end you could still have the same problem.

We also plan to implement side content later on where having Save Points set automatically within mainstream content could set a location far from ideal when you're attempting one-off Quests, this solution makes it entirely up to yourself to think about where the best place to set a Save Point would be.

The time thing is still a problem, Downsider's suggestion is solid. Like I said, 15 seconds may not seem like a lot when you look at the number, but it breaks the flow when you actually play a game. Gamers don't like that at all.

[ffcmike]

The idea behind it is that you're going into the bed to take a rest (what a bed is for).
Entering the bed, immediately saving and then exiting the bed bypasses this.
I understand that not everything has to make perfect sense in a game but if we were going to make it instant it might aswell be a button click or possible for when sitting on a chair.

There could also be a scenario in future where there could be a series of quest levels containing beds and that it might be a good thing that players can weigh up whether they would want to spend that extra 15 seconds for assurance or waste no time and take that risk.

[DustyPorViva]

The problem is not logic but purpose. Rarely do people use beds for resting unless there is no other method to heal(like vases). Resting is boring, and considering save points will be mainly useful during questing means it's going to break the flow. Giving the waiting game another purpose may make it more useful, but doesn't make it more fun.

I ask though, what's wrong with making it instant? Where, from a developers perspective, is the benefit of making the player sit there doing nothing?

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Giving the waiting game another purpose may make it more useful, but doesn't make it more fun.

Just had an idea.

Dream Sequences.

[DemonSpawnn]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

-that extra 15 seconds for assurance-

Originally Posted by Fulg0reSama

Just had an idea.

Dream Sequences.

How about the screen darkens and then the screen lights up again?
All in 5 seconds.

[ff7chocoboknight]

Instead of automatically setting the save point with the counter in the middle of the screen, we could have it so there is the counter at the bottom or top of the screen and you click a button to set the save point.

[Kamaeru]

How about just ask if you want to save when the player dies?

Make the system of questing like this: there is always an area overarching a specific quest filled with events that occur and people to talk to which lead the player to the quest and prepare the player for what is ahead. There will always be one person, location/sanctuary, or house which will serve the purpose of Main Influence over the player, to lead them into what is next in the quest diagram without drawing them away from potential sidequests which could be useful. The system could work so that whenever a player reaches this main influential location, that whenever you die until the next one you reach, it does not automatically send you there (that would suck), but gives you the "Save and Quit" option, where it saves the game at this location of Main Influence. That is the way that works best for Classic, so that the questing could be pick-up-and-play compared to the social aspect of the server (events, guilds, etc.)

This is my opinion, and I must add that I haven't checked out your bed-save idea and am in no way trying to say that it is a bad idea.

[jacob_bald6225]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Hmm, I'm curious... why go through such complications just for a spawn point? Waiting around can be somewhat troublesome for some of the more impatient players. I know 15 seconds may not seem like a lot but when you're on the go(actively questing), that can be a long time.

Though I more bring this up because a spawn point is not the biggest advantage in the world, and it seems like a lot of work for a minor thing. Why not just have it checkpoint automatically at certain places?

It is 15 seconds, not 15 minutes.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by jacob_bald6225

It is 15 seconds, not 15 minutes.

Loading in most games rarely takes more than a few seconds but it's still something that is considered lengthy because even though you think "seconds" when you're in the middle of a game, sitting there doing nothing seems like much longer.

[jacob_bald6225]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Loading in most games rarely takes more than a few seconds but it's still something that is considered lengthy because even though you think "seconds" when you're in the middle of a game, sitting there doing nothing seems like much longer.

But this isn't loading, it is setting a waypoint that you will respawn at if you die.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by jacob_bald6225

But this isn't loading, it is setting a waypoint that you will respawn at if you die.

So? It could be accomplished in 2 seconds as well. The point is that it's unnecessary.

[jacob_bald6225]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

So? It could be accomplished in 2 seconds as well. The point is that it's unnecessary.

It could be accomplished with a button too! The point is, I don't think 15 seconds makes or breaks the idea of using beds as check-points. To throw words around like "complications", "troublesome", and "a lot of work" for not hitting buttons on a keyboard for 15 seconds is just asinine.

It isn't like a quest would have a bed in every room.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

So? It could be accomplished in 2 seconds as well. The point is that it's unnecessary.

I guess the part that needs to be explained here is 'unnecessary'.

Any obstacle in the game could be seen as, well, an obstacle: unnecessary and inconvenient.
But, the idea is that certain obstacles make the game more interesting, like, not being able to instantaneously heal, not being able to kill bosses just by slashing at them head-on, and not being able to just respawn where you died in the first place.

A delay on saving could be become one of these obstacles. "Should I waste time saving now or continue on the quest and risk dying and getting sent too far back?"


So my question is, what makes a delay on saving more annoying than any other obstacle to warrant its removal, and what are the general rules you're using to decide that?

[12171217]

ok kid nobody likes it except you

youre wrong

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

I guess the part that needs to be explained here is 'unnecessary'.

Anything obstacle in the game could be seen as, well, an obstacle: unnecessary and inconvenient.
But, the idea is that certain obstacles make the game more interesting, like, not being able to instantaneously heal, not being able to kill bosses just by slashing at them head-on, and not being able to just respawn where you died in the first place.

A delay on saving could be become one of these obstacles. "Should I waste time saving now or continue on the quest and risk dying and getting sent too far back?"


So my question is, what makes a delay on saving more annoying than any other obstacle to warrant its removal, and what are the general rules you're using to decide that?

Mainly because I consider checkpointing a feature to ease the frustration of a game, not some sort of major benefit. The only point of a save point is to save some time from repeating too many steps that they've already accomplished, or to save them time from walking from far place to another just because they died. Over and over.

However here it's being treated as though it's some powerful weapon that needs to be balanced and it doesn't. A quest is something that involves the player actively playing the game. You either have to walk around fetching stuff, or more complex quests like a dungeon in Zelda. However, either way you actually have to do something. Sitting in a bed just waiting is NOT fun. Do you think it'd be fun? Do you think it's okay to break the flow a player may be having just so they make sure when they die they don't have to do something redundant? I've recently played Braid and they have a secret star piece that you have to wait for TWO hours just to obtain. Doing nothing. Sitting there, waiting for a slow-ass cloud to move across the level. Now this isn't two hours of waiting but the point still remains that to force the player to do nothing is counter-productive to gaming.

All I'm saying is if I'm playing a game I want to keep active. If I'm questing and I need to change my save point I want to get into a bed and get out, because I have no interest in that bed other than making a save point and I see no reason to spend 15+ seconds there for no other reason when I could have made quite a bit of progress doing something constructive.

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Mainly because I consider checkpointing a feature to ease the frustration of a game, not some sort of major benefit. The only point of a save point is to save some time from repeating too many steps that they've already accomplished, or to save them time from walking from far place to another just because they died. Over and over.

However here it's being treated as though it's some powerful weapon that needs to be balanced and it doesn't. A quest is something that involves the player actively playing the game. You either have to walk around fetching stuff, or more complex quests like a dungeon in Zelda. However, either way you actually have to do something. Sitting in a bed just waiting is NOT fun. Do you think it'd be fun? Do you think it's okay to break the flow a player may be having just so they make sure when they die they don't have to do something redundant? I've recently played Braid and they have a secret star piece that you have to wait for TWO hours just to obtain. Doing nothing. Sitting there, waiting for a slow-ass cloud to move across the level. Now this isn't two hours of waiting but the point still remains that to force the player to do nothing is counter-productive to gaming.

All I'm saying is if I'm playing a game I want to keep active. If I'm questing and I need to change my save point I want to get into a bed and get out, because I have no interest in that bed other than making a save point and I see no reason to spend 15+ seconds there for no other reason when I could have made quite a bit of progress doing something constructive.

Simple ways to solve this:
1) Add more save blocks and remove the beds
2) Lower the bed time to a maximum of 5 seconds

[ff7chocoboknight]

I love the constant nit-picking by people I haven't seen on the server for more than a few minutes.

How about instead of pointing out the faults, you tell us what we could do to fix it. I'm sure you can use your heads to do things other than trying to justify your points with chapters of posts.

"The time is too long."

Well, that's great. If we just change the time every time you go on a bed, with the current system, you'll almost instantly have an icon pop up in the middle of the screen. I would find that much more annoying than having to stay on the bed for 15 seconds.

Don't simply tell us what is wrong, tell us what we can do.

Now, I don't think the save system should change at all. Mostly because it's always the same people complaining. Normally I'd tell you to just not play if you do not like it, but Thor would be on my case. (Oops.) I can usually ignore the more annoying critics, however; when development progress is slowed, or even halted by these critics, it's difficult to ignore.

I don't feel like typing anymore.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by ff7chocoboknight

I love the constant nit-picking by people I haven't seen on the server for more than a few minutes.

How about instead of pointing out the faults, you tell us what we could do to fix it. I'm sure you can use your heads to do things other than trying to justify your points with chapters of posts.

"The time is too long."

Well, that's great. If we just change the time every time you go on a bed, with the current system, you'll almost instantly have an icon pop up in the middle of the screen. I would find that much more annoying than having to stay on the bed for 15 seconds.

Don't simply tell us what is wrong, tell us what we can do.

There have been multiple suggestions for what to change it to. Stop acting like all people are trying to do is make the server look bad.

[12171217]

Originally Posted by ff7chocoboknight

I love the constant nit-picking by people I haven't seen on the server for more than a few minutes.

How about instead of pointing out the faults, you tell us what we could do to fix it. I'm sure you can use your heads to do things other than trying to justify your points with chapters of posts.

"The time is too long."

Well, that's great. If we just change the time every time you go on a bed, with the current system, you'll almost instantly have an icon pop up in the middle of the screen. I would find that much more annoying than having to stay on the bed for 15 seconds.

Don't simply tell us what is wrong, tell us what we can do.

Now, I don't think the save system should change at all. Mostly because it's always the same people complaining. Normally I'd tell you to just not play if you do not like it, but Thor would be on my case. (Oops.) I can usually ignore the more annoying critics, however; when development progress is slowed, or even halted by these critics, it's difficult to ignore.

I don't feel like typing anymore.

Why can't you just press A when you're in the bed instead or something? You could make it painfully obvious that they're save points, dim the screen and push some text over.

Why not just have it checkpoint automatically at certain places?

I ask though, what's wrong with making it instant? Where, from a developers perspective, is the benefit of making the player sit there doing nothing?

How about the screen darkens and then the screen lights up again?
All in 5 seconds.

How about just ask if you want to save when the player dies?

It could be accomplished with a button too!

Everyone is open to the idea of beds as save points, but nobody wants to sit there and wait for 15 seconds so WD can have his "dramatic tension".

When everyone around you doesn't like what you have to say, that generally means you're wrong in some way. Classic is for the players, not WD's playground.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by 12171217

Everyone is open to the idea of beds as save points, but nobody wants to sit there and wait for 15 seconds so WD can have his "dramatic tension".

When everyone around you doesn't like what you have to say, that generally means you're wrong in some way. Classic is for the players, not WD's playground.

This is something that I pushed to implement, not WD, but if you're going to refer to it as a playground I strongly suggest looking at some of the current PlayerWorlds Tab servers first, especially Unholy Nation, because in comparison I find it nothing but laughable you'd claim this is the case with Classic, and as a result makes it that much more difficult to take you seriously when you do continue to nit-pick and not specifically over this but tonnes of different things that you have.

The changes I have made to cut down the waiting time, make it look more appealing and still maintain some slight realism are that you must now press A, however still wait about 3 seconds plus an additional second for every 10% of the HP it will heal as opposed to hop-in-hop-out while a darkness fade occurs.