The problem with ignoring "unintentional" laggers.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

I spoke to a few Era players and staff and laggers are removed from events there, just not automatically. Sounds a little contradictory to your beliefs.

[geneticfrog]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

he can still play graal just not events and major events due to WAy too much lag.... at the point where you cant hit him.

I payed for graal too.... dont i get a right to have faire game play?
if he can lag to 1k i want to be able to use WSU in major events.

I dont see the sense in making he laggers happy while 98% of the graal players who want to have faire game play must suffer.

it literally ruins the events if you cant hit someone so i want to be able to use WSU on laggers so i can god mode so its faire. it just will never end.

[Heroin]

Originally Posted by geneticfrog

major bull****

can someone teach that idiot the difference between cheating on purpose and an issue you have no control about?

other than that, YES, it is unfair to the majority of the players to some degree, but expelling everyone from certain parts of the game just because of their handicap connection-wise is not the right way to go either.

if someone is actually going to look into this, good luck on making everyone happy.

[Chakrah]

Originally Posted by Heroin

can someone teach that idiot the difference between cheating on purpose and an issue you have no control about?

other than that, YES, it is unfair to the majority of the players to some degree, but expelling everyone from certain parts of the game just because of their handicap connection-wise is not the right way to go either.

if someone is actually going to look into this, good luck on making everyone happy.

qft

[salesman]

I'll say it again, an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage. Regardless of whether or not it is intentional, it should not be allowed because it is unfair to those who are playing under normal circumstances.

A similar issue we had on Era involved players using a program to speed up processes on their computer (Graal in particular). Basically, everything on the clientside would run faster than normal, giving them a huge advantage. The detection we developed would catch people using the program, but it also caught someone whose computer came with artificial overclocking software pre-installed. The software on his computer was producing the same effect as the cheating program, therefore giving him the same advantages...unintentionally.

Now, would you disable the detection and allow cheaters to play on the server just because of this one person? Hell no.

Eventually the player learned how to disable the software on his computer and was allowed to play again, but the issue is still pretty much the same.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by salesman

A similar issue we had on Era involved players using a program to speed up processes on their computer (Graal in particular). Basically, everything on the clientside would run faster than normal, giving them a huge advantage. The detection we developed would catch people using the program, but it also caught someone whose computer came with artificial overclocking software pre-installed. The software on his computer was producing the same effect as the cheating program, therefore giving him the same advantages...unintentionally.

Now, would you disable the detection and allow cheaters to play on the server just because of this one person? Hell no.

Eventually the player learned how to disable the software on his computer and was allowed to play again, but the issue is still pretty much the same.

Someone was banned for the exact same reason yesterday, hence why I thought it would be an appropriate time to bring this up.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Someone was banned for the exact same reason yesterday, hence why I thought it would be an appropriate time to bring this up.

Using a utility to speed up the Windows process clock and lagging as a result of a poor internet connection are completely different things...

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

"Oh no, I paid for an online game that requires a decent internet connection and am shocked because suddenly me paying for an online game and knowing my connection sucks bit me in the ass? Maybe I should have thought twice about online gaming with my crappy internet."

Originally Posted by Chakrah

Let's say it's the 1950s..
You're all playing basketball right, being white (non laggers)..and I want to play basketball but I can't because im a lagger(Black).

You won't let me play because I'm a different.

same concept

Seriously? You're making that comparison?

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

"Oh no, I paid for an online game that requires a decent internet connection and am shocked because suddenly me paying for an online game and knowing my connection sucks bit me in the ass? Maybe I should have thought twice about online gaming with my crappy internet."

lol?

because it's totally ok to decide one day you're no longer going to allow players with high pings to participate in the game

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

lol?

because it's totally ok to decide one day you're no longer going to allow players with high pings to participate in the game

Sure, the requirements aren't written on paper like say, a PC game is. But if I buy a PC game that says I meet the minimal requirements, but not the recommended requirements... I'm not going to be shocked when I'm missing out on some of the game. Just because I paid for it doesn't mean I'm entitled to experience it when I lack what is recommended.

Participating in online gaming means you're putting yourself in that situation whether it's written down or not. I've downloaded plenty of games and realized I just couldn't enjoy it with my internet connection, even though I met the minimal requirements. Now this becomes especially bad when it goes from tarnishing your personal enjoyment, to messing it up for everyone else that has to play with you.

Really, all I hear is "stop whining, stop being butthurt"... sounds like who's really butthurt is the minority that this is going to affect. Why don't you deal with the fact that you're actually going to have to deal with having a ****ty internet connection instead of everyone else that has the displeasure of participating in events with you.

[weeway]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

"Oh no, I paid for an online game that requires a decent internet connection and am shocked because suddenly me paying for an online game and knowing my connection sucks bit me in the ass? Maybe I should have thought twice about online gaming with my crappy internet."

Thats extreamly unfair.
Some people cant help lagging and people cant afford better internet.
it's not their fault there ISP sucks.
Just because they have bad internet dosent mean they should just be banned form playing games online.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by weeway

Thats extreamly unfair.
Some people cant help lagging and people cant afford better internet.
it's not their fault there ISP sucks.
Just because they have bad internet dosent mean they should just be banned form playing games online.

So just because people can't afford new computers or help it, they should be able to play modern games? It just doesn't work that way in the computing world. The reality is that people who have ****ty internet tend to NOT be able to enjoy online games. I can't play my xbox 360 online half the time because my internet just isn't up to it.

You know what games like Call of Duty do when I lag? They FRAME STUTTER. This makes it impossible for me to aim, which means I should just quit. Oh well... should I sue Activision because I paid for the game? Not really. It sucks, but just like I can't help it, I shouldn't expect others to have to deal with my misfortune as well. I've also had to stop playing another MMO I was playing because my internet was disrupting my ability to enjoy it. Sure, they don't ban me from the game, but I acknowledge that even if I have an internet connection, that doesn't mean I qualify to play all online games, or that others should be forced to let me.

I have a very unstable connection. I get disconnected a lot. Know what happens when I get disconnected for even a second during an event? I get booted upon reconnecting. Damn, they're discriminating against my unstable internet.

[Rufus]

I understand that some people will read what I've said, take their experiences of minor laggers, and feel like it is some kind of catastrophe in excluding these people from competitive aspects of the server. However..

68 Players Online
Highest Ping: geneticfrog (1033ms)
Lowest Ping: Graal754612 (34ms)
Average: 100.03ms
Pings Below 300ms: 97.05%

When people in this thread are saying "majority" they really do mean it. Can someone please explain to me what justifies allowing laggers to spoil the playing experience for the other players? I'm really not getting it.

[Chakrah]

It's not an intentional spoiling, Rufus.

[Door]

Originally Posted by Chakrah

It's not an intentional spoiling, Rufus.

I don't think that the intention behind the cheating should affect how it is handled/whether it is handled at all. This is kind of an extreme comparison, but I think it gets my point across: When someone is hurting people irl and is deemed both sane and guilty, he/she is kept away from the public, usually in prison. When a mentally ill person is hurting others and cannot help what he/she is doing, that person is also kept away from the public. Is it fair to the mentally ill person? No. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.

It doesn't matter WHY it is happening, Chakrah. It's unfair to the vast majority of players, as Rufus showed us. I'm sorry if 3% of the playerbase cannot participate certain events/sparring/Castle Wars at times (or all the time). That is way less harmful than stealing from 97% of the players.

If people like BlobZ and Chakrah didn't take advantage of their lag by playing in events even when they receive complaints from other players, then this would not have to be enforced. Unfortunately, however...

[coreys]

Originally Posted by Door

Funny coming from someone who lamed castle wars so hardcore so that US could get a cheap win, ruining the fun for everyone else. >=O

In all seriousness, though, it's perfectly reasonable to bar laggers from playing events and the like, we do it on N-Pulse. However, we do it more or less at the ETs discretion, which is the way it should be done.

But they should be allowed to spar just fine. If someone has a problem with it, just don't spar them.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by coreys

However, we do it more or less at the ETs discretion, which is the way it should be done.

An ET's discretion usually means one of two things:

1. Eh, he's my friend so I'll let it slide.
2. I hate this lagger ***** (kicks cbk1994)

Not the way it should be done.

[coreys]

Originally Posted by salesman

An ET's discretion usually means one of two things:

1. Eh, he's my friend so I'll let it slide.
2. I hate this lagger ***** (kicks cbk1994)

Not the way it should be done.

That's why you hire good ETs. Not that UN would know anything about hiring good staff that don't abuse their power.

[tempandrew]

Originally Posted by Door

I don't think that the intention behind the cheating should affect how it is handled/whether it is handled at all. This is kind of an extreme comparison, but I think it gets my point across: When someone is hurting people irl and is deemed both sane and guilty, he/she is kept away from the public, usually in prison. When a mentally ill person is hurting others and cannot help what he/she is doing, that person is also kept away from the public. Is it fair to the mentally ill person? No. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.[/CENTER]

We should totally start jailing people irl who spread disease unintentionally because they get sick and come in contact with someone else.
THROW 'EM IN THE BRIG, THOSE BASTARDS KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!


Look, this whole discussion is ridiculous. You can't compare cheating to unintentional lagging, it's one of the most outlandish statements I've heard on a serious graal discussion in a long time, and that's saying something. Chakrah paid money to play this game. Blobz did too. So did Torrent. So did Aarian. So did I. So did Rufus. So did Door. It might be annoying to spar against him, or play events against him, but too bad. Don't spar him. Kick him from events if it's really a joint agreement that his lag is too much at the moment and it's severely holding up the event. Putting a lag cap is one of the most ridiculous and unfair things I've heard. What a stupid idea. Grow up and stop complaining about his lag. He can't help it.

And guess what? Some players actually move faster than others in sparring because they have faster computers with a faster CPU. Let's ban them from spars. They have an unintentional edge over other players in spars. This is cheating.

Honestly, do you people actually read what you're typing, because you sound like *****s.

[Door]

Originally Posted by coreys

Funny coming from someone who lamed castle wars so hardcore so that US could get a cheap win, ruining the fun for everyone else. >=O

Yeah, and I responded to your complaint like any fair player would:

[4/10/2010 9:08:10 PM] Corey: It became pointless to play after you started laming
[4/10/2010 9:08:20 PM] Corey: lost it's fun
[4/10/2010 9:08:21 PM] Jennie: they recently moved the REAL doorblocker place where you had to get staff to move the person (in the water)
[4/10/2010 9:08:57 PM] Jennie: ok
[4/10/2010 9:08:59 PM] Jennie: Im sorry
[4/10/2010 9:09:09 PM] Jennie: I won't block there anymore

Originally Posted by tempandrew

We should totally start jailing people irl who spread disease unintentionally because they get sick and come in contact with someone else.

THROW 'EM IN THE BRIG, THOSE BASTARDS KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!

...does the word "quarantine" ring a bell?

It doesn't matter why someone is causing damage or hurting other people or being a public nuisance. What matters is that it has to be stopped, and this is true both online and irl. Sorry unintentional laggers, I feel bad that you can't help it, but you make up less than 3% of the playerbase at any given time, and you're ruining the game for potentially 97% of the players (although based on Chakrah's screencap and video, it's become clear that while his lag may be unintentional, his use of that lag to ruin the game for others is more than intentional).

[Chakrah]

Originally Posted by Door

(although based on Chakrah's screencap and video, it's become clear that while his lag may be unintentional, his use of that lag to ruin the game for others is more than intentional).

this is where i'm going to settle this.

i made that video to show you what exactly i have to do to spar with my handicap. in NO way whatsoever, did i make this video to gloat that im abusing my lag to win.

Ruining the game for others using lag? No.

Harassing players, and flaming them? Yes.

This whole thread deserves about 100 boxes of tissues because all you're doing is ****ing crying.

[Demisis_P2P]

Would it be possible to use somebody's ping to draw a circle around their player that shows where they might be after delay is taken into account? So that you know how far ahead of them you need to slash/shoot?

[Chakrah]

you edited that pic clearly

[PrayDoh]

As a laggy player and as a member of the PR team on Unholy Nation, I support a lag cap on events and spars.

Lag prevents me from playing the game in the way I like to play it, which is skip-free, and actually being able to hit players where I see them on my screen. It's because of lag that I choose to remove myself from most oppurtunities to play events or spar.

I've been on both sides of the fence, and it is pretty undeniable that players with excessive lag have an advantage over others. To put it in perspective, Chakrah went from having 1600 rate before he lagged, to breaking 2100 with his excessive lag.

To reiterate, even though it would disallow me from playing a lot of events, I support a lag cap.

[Chakrah]

Let's say it's the 1950s..
You're all playing basketball right, being white (non laggers)..and I want to play basketball but I can't because im a lagger(Black).

You won't let me play because I'm a different.

same concept

[Rufus]

85 Players Online
Highest Ping: Chakrah (700ms)
Lowest Ping: KittyGirl97 (25ms)
Average: 90.08ms
Pings Below 300ms: 97.64%

[ohshutup55]

I support a lag cap on events and spars.

I think it is unfair for the majority of the players to have to confront a really bad lagger who skips from right to left in 2 seconds. I admit that it would be unfair for the players who don't have any choice but to have a satellite connection, but these laggers form about 3-4% of the entire Unholy Nations' players.

I also think it is very unfair to have a really bad lagger participate to important Tournaments such as UTC & TTUTC because they take other players' chance to win the tournament by lagging so bad. It gets very hard to hit certain laggers to the point where some players give up on fighting because they realize they have no chance to win.

I have seen a lot of times while hosting events how laggers win some events so easily just because of their excessive lag. So I would be for the lag cap solution.

[snoop413]

a complete ban from events isn't necessary. looking at chakrah's profile he has over 500 hours and a total of 26 event wins. it's not 26 event wins this month, but total of all time since that feature was implemented in peoples profile. that is not very much at all. possibly he should be kicked in team events since thats when people complain the most, but i don't see it as that big of a deal. it is not hard to kill people who have a lot of lag, it is just time consuming.

i remember bell had an official rule against players who lag bad but it doesn't seem to be in affect anymore. there are still rules in events that are broken, even if they are minor ones. you aren't supposed to sit around and just talk to your friends and not fight, yet people do it all the time. yes, i do this too, but if they are going to bring back a lag rule please make sure to enforce all rules to be fair for everyone else.

[Chakrah]

i love everyone thats understanding my disability. :3

[Heroin]

graal is not a modern game, its over 12 years old, it worked on computers that have the same power as pocket calculators nowadays and it worked on connections that had less quality than ****ing bamboo phones.. if anyone is to blame for this, then its cyberjoueurs and their ****ty servers, their ****ty engine and all the stupid decisions they made to completely ruin the potential of this game, but hey! it's fun to see a bunch of rabid dogs fighting on a sinking ship

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Heroin

graal is not a modern game, its over 12 years old, it worked on computers that have the same power as pocket calculators nowadays and it worked on connections that had less quality than ****ing bamboo phones.. if anyone is to blame for this, then its cyberjoueurs and their ****ty servers, their ****ty engine and all the stupid decisions they made to completely ruin the potential of this game, but hey! it's fun to see a bunch of rabid dogs fighting on a sinking ship

How is someone with a 2000ms ping their problem? Take your CJ rage somewhere that it matters, please.

[Deeek]

No one here has yet to explain the difference between "unintentional" lagging. Stop scapegoating people with poor connections.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Deeek

No one here has yet to explain the difference between "unintentional" lagging. Stop scapegoating people with poor connections.

What? No one is explaining the difference because it is irrelevant. If you want to know the difference between sparring someone with even a decent connection and a lagger, get on UN and spar Chakrah.

[Deeek]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

What? No one is explaining the difference because it is irrelevant.

Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Deeek

Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?

Does it matter, though? Lag is lag is lag. The advantage of lag, whether it's intentional or not, is there. People do intentionally lag themselves, but it doesn't matter regardless. All laggers should be treated the same specifically because we can't really prove who is just abusing it and who is not.

[Deeek]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

People do intentionally lag themselves, but it doesn't matter regardless.

All laggers should be treated the same specifically because we can't really prove who is just abusing it and who is not.

Right, because lag abusers don't exist - it's just a really silly gimmick to scapegoat players with poor connections because you people lack the required patience to deal with them (as I said before).

I've also sparred Chakrah, by the way. I'm not about to point fingers at him though because I can't beat him.

[Door]

Originally Posted by Deeek

Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...93#post1569793

[Deeek]

Originally Posted by Door

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...93#post1569793

So? Doesn't make him a "lag abuser". He's just admitting his obvious amusement over the abundance of immaturity rampant on this server. If I said the same thing that wouldn't make me a "lag abuser", would it?

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Oh, I missed this last part. Are you aware of how this stuff works in Graal? I find it quite arrogant of you to call the people who complain scapegoats when I am getting the very fine feeling that you're not aware of anything that is being discussed here.

Does this statement also make you equally arrogant for refusing to adequately prove anything you've said in this thread?

Ugh. Hint: There's a big difference between poor connections and emulation. I could emulate lag, but then I'm not really lagging am I?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Deeek

Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?

Oh, I missed this last part. Are you aware of how this stuff works in Graal? I find it quite arrogant of you to call the people who complain scapegoats when I am getting the very fine feeling that you're not aware of anything that is being discussed here.

[Chakrah]

i log on with high ping and log off with high ping
and even when im not at my computer i have high ping.
yeah its so not real...