A request for Graal Online managment:

[Crono]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

I've heard from Stefan that he's going to make the controls feel more 'native' and with proper GUI skinning it could probably look and feel like the current V5 playerlist. Staying optimistic because I look forward to extending the functionality of the newly scripted versions of old built-in menus.

I sure hope so!

Originally Posted by tempandrew

An internal playerlist will get me angry. Down with change. Up with v2.31

It's not really internal. It's still "external" but it's the scripted one so it doesn't feel as smooth and looks/functions awkward.

[coreys]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

But it will please the existing player-count with computers that can't seem to run it with all the bells and whistles enabled.

I feel sorry for anyone who can't run Graal of all things. I see people with Pentium 4's still running Graal fine (if a bit laggy). If you have less than a Pentium 4 you need a better computer anyways.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by coreys

I feel sorry for anyone who can't run Graal of all things. I see people with Pentium 4's still running Graal fine (if a bit laggy). If you have less than a Pentium 4 you need a better computer anyways.

Dare I even give my computer specs to show how right this dude is?

[Admins]

v6 plays very well on a PentiumII
For making controls feel more 'native': we have added support for dynamic cursor, so it's showing a text cursor if you hover the mouse over a text field or it shows a hand cursor when you hover over a link. You can also set the cursor for GUI controls. Currently only hand and text cursor are supported, later we could also support custom graphical ones.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Stefan

...later we could also support custom graphical ones.

What do you mean by later? :o like 1 year...2 years? o.o

[coreys]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

What do you mean by later? :o like 1 year...2 years? o.o

Don't be ridiculous.
3 years.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Stefan

For making controls feel more 'native': we have added support for dynamic cursor, so it's showing a text cursor if you hover the mouse over a text field or it shows a hand cursor when you hover over a link. You can also set the cursor for GUI controls. Currently only hand and text cursor are supported, later we could also support custom graphical ones.

This is great. Consider adding the other native too before the graphical ones... here is the list from CSS: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/ui.html#cursor-props

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by Stefan

v6 plays very well on a PentiumII
For making controls feel more 'native': we have added support for dynamic cursor, so it's showing a text cursor if you hover the mouse over a text field or it shows a hand cursor when you hover over a link. You can also set the cursor for GUI controls. Currently only hand and text cursor are supported, later we could also support custom graphical ones.

Thank you for the update, when do we expect a release? thanks

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Thank you for the update, when do we expect a release? thanks

Not for a while.

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Stefan

For making controls feel more 'native': we have added support for dynamic cursor, so it's showing a text cursor if you hover the mouse over a text field or it shows a hand cursor when you hover over a link. You can also set the cursor for GUI controls. Currently only hand and text cursor are supported, later we could also support custom graphical ones.

Will we get this for the entire client (on a server) as well?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Stefan

v6 plays very well on a PentiumII
For making controls feel more 'native': we have added support for dynamic cursor, so it's showing a text cursor if you hover the mouse over a text field or it shows a hand cursor when you hover over a link. You can also set the cursor for GUI controls. Currently only hand and text cursor are supported, later we could also support custom graphical ones.

Does it mean the focus of Graal is to make it completely a development platform, where players can test for money the skills of the different develop teams?
It's sad that there is no information what will happen with the Goldservers, if it's planned to let them die or if they will become interesting for (new)players.

[Lord Sephiroth]

*sigh*

The direction of this thread has gone all over the place. It started out with a plea that Stefan and Co. talk to their players and give us something to look forward to. Then it somehow moved in the right direction of a lack of players or advertisements. Then Stefan or someone mentioned something briefly about v6 and this and that and everyone forgot all about the biggest issue like when a mom brings out ice cream to stop a kid from crying.

The point of the matter is we need more playercount. That's it. End of discussion. It doesn't matter if Stefan releases Graal PC v6 through v12. We're losing players. v6 is a bandaid to the bigger problem, you'll keep those that are still around interested for a bit, but when we all realize it's just another maintenance update that's long overdue, we'll all feel even worse and even more of us will leave.

Advertisements.

I've read the codes and rules for the iPhone. I know it's illegal to advertise other games on your Apps, but there are still loopholes that you can work around like a sign on the game or an NPC that tells the player theres a bigger version of the game available on the PC.

If you took even a little bit of the money you make from the gullable people you've somehow tricked into paying for this game and dumped it into advertising on the smallest of places like the side of website ads I can guaruntee you you'd see a bigger profit within 6 months.

The problem with Graal isn't the fact that the game sucks. All of us here know the game sucks but we still play it, or develop for it, or what-have-you. The problem is that NO ONE KNOWS IT EXISTS.

Make it known. Get people here. Then the updates might actually mean something. 'Cause until then, you're just getting the ice cream.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Lord Sephiroth

*sigh*

The direction of this thread has gone all over the place. It started out with a plea that Stefan and Co. talk to their players and give us something to look forward to. Then it somehow moved in the right direction of a lack of players or advertisements. Then Stefan or someone mentioned something briefly about v6 and this and that and everyone forgot all about the biggest issue like when a mom brings out ice cream to stop a kid from crying.

The point of the matter is we need more playercount. That's it. End of discussion. It doesn't matter if Stefan releases Graal PC v6 through v12. We're losing players. v6 is a bandaid to the bigger problem, you'll keep those that are still around interested for a bit, but when we all realize it's just another maintenance update that's long overdue, we'll all feel even worse and even more of us will leave.

Advertisements.

I've read the codes and rules for the iPhone. I know it's illegal to advertise other games on your Apps, but there are still loopholes that you can work around like a sign on the game or an NPC that tells the player theres a bigger version of the game available on the PC.

If you took even a little bit of the money you make from the gullable people you've somehow tricked into paying for this game and dumped it into advertising on the smallest of places like the side of website ads I can guaruntee you you'd see a bigger profit within 6 months.

The problem with Graal isn't the fact that the game sucks. All of us here know the game sucks but we still play it, or develop for it, or what-have-you. The problem is that NO ONE KNOWS IT EXISTS.

Make it known. Get people here. Then the updates might actually mean something. 'Cause until then, you're just getting the ice cream.

There was a reddit thread that actually talked about graalonline. A few people still remembered. It's just that people see graal as an old memory. But other than that you're 100 percent correct.

Now here's an ice cream cone sweetie

[Crono]

suggesting how stefan and co can improve graal is different than suggesting how they can make a profit guys

we're players, remember that

[Lord Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Crono

suggesting how stefan and co can improve graal is different than suggesting how they can make a profit guys

we're players, remember that

Unfortunately in this instance, improving graal is directly proportionate to making a profit.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Lord Sephiroth

Unfortunately in this instance, improving graal is directly proportionate to making a profit.

Yes but referring to profits and money directly is not the right way to go at it. Stick to a player's perspective.

p.s advertisements are not the answer.

[Lord Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Crono

p.s advertisements are not the answer.

I disagree, how else are they supposed to get the name out? The time of word-of-mouth is long since gone, and Graal can't rely on that to get the players it needs anymore.


e. I disagree that advertisements isn't an answer. It may not be the only answer, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by Lord Sephiroth

I disagree, how else are they supposed to get the name out? The time of word-of-mouth is long since gone, and Graal can't rely on that to get the players it needs anymore.


e. I disagree that advertisements isn't an answer. It may not be the only answer, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.

You need to have something worth advertising first.

[Brad]

Okay heres my two cents:

I left graal the client for probably the last 4 years. I left the forums about 3 years ago. In these 3-4 years of being on hiatus I return. I return to find NOTHING different. The only thing different I've seen is that all of my friends are gone. UN continues to bring in the numbers simply because they hold regular events, have idiots/cool people, and have things to do. Those three reasons are what made 2k1 good, and in a bunch of our eyes, the best server ever. So heres what I'm getting at.. release something decent, whoever the new clown is that is running 2k1 DO SOMETHING, or watch as playerworlds die and iphone graal becomes the ONLY graal.

[Lord Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by salesman

You need to have something worth advertising first.

I know this sounds hypocritical cause I had just said that Graal sucks, but there is a lot worth advertising here. Just the development aspect alone is worth noting. The game itself is enough to be fun for a lot of people that are just starting, especially since they won't be as jaded as we are. We all assume theres nothing attractive about Graal because we've been here so long and the stuff we loved is gone, but for new people theres still an interesting attraction.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Lord Sephiroth

I disagree, how else are they supposed to get the name out? The time of word-of-mouth is long since gone, and Graal can't rely on that to get the players it needs anymore.


e. I disagree that advertisements isn't an answer. It may not be the only answer, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.

Like I told you ingame, even classic iphone players are logging onto Graal and going "wow this sucks, we're going back to classic iphone". We've all witnessed this on UN etc. What is there to advertise? Ya let's advertise Zodiac, Era, and UN, because they all totally have quality content to show non-Graalians.

You know what my two closest buddies (I wouldn't dare show anyone else) did when I showed them these three servers? They laughed. Hard. And I completely agree with their notion.

Advertising is good, but only once there's something to advertise. Advertising development isn't enough. Look at the majority of the people on Graal. They're playing it.

[tempandrew]

People need to actually start developing interesting servers with unique ideas, like the old days. Stuff that's developed now is just pure garbage. The few quality things that are produced on this heap of **** game are handled completely incorrectly, because you're all so desperate to keep people attracted, and you don't look at the big picture. You release one big project after the next, and people remain interested for a short period of time but it has a bandaid effect on a dam full of holes. Eventually the pressure will build up elsewhere and a new hole will spring, you'll need another bandaid to fix that one.

People need to start developing and releasing in an organized matter. It prolongs the interest and gets people involved in what the server has to offer. Don't make random ass quests that follow no story line. Put personality into your characters. You're developing for a game, remember that, this might be a poor quality 2D game, but follow the same rules any other game would follow. Story lines. Characters with personalities. When I play a game, there's always at least one character I just fall in love with, and I actually care what happened to that character. Say the character dies somewhere in the story, I'm like 'NOOOOOOOOOO', and I want to keep playing the game to seek revenge and kill the **** out of the bastard who took him out.

I'm rambling, but the point is, organize your servers better, everybody. You'll see a gigantic improvement in overall server quality and interest. I still agree advertising will help Graal as a whole even in it's current state, but I think Graal does need to start moving in a new direction as far as server development goes. Unholy Nation is the biggest mess of a server I've seen. It is probably the biggest compilation of tossed together ideas in Graal history, surpassing the disorganization of even examples like late Babylon/Delteria. And this is why servers do not last forever, and need to be started anew after so many years.

[Dnegel]

Originally Posted by tempandrew

-Text-

I cant agree more with this, tired of people that wanna make a own server, and they dont have a clue what they are gonna do.

Make a plan guys.

[Hiro]

i've been trying not to post in this thread, but now i'm going too because -dammit- **** needs to be said

Originally Posted by Sam

Does it mean the focus of Graal is to make it completely a development platform, where players can test for money the skills of the different develop teams?
It's sad that there is no information what will happen with the Goldservers, if it's planned to let them die or if they will become interesting for (new)players.

graal is a development platform according to CJ. you buy the rights to the engine/scripts/default GFX/server space/controls and you develop things. that's the only way that CJ appears to see the game; the updates are for developers, the promises are for developers, the focus is completely on developers. these developers, in turn, are supposed to run the entire game for CJ as they focus on more updates for them to use. all the global teams are various "developers" from different areas of overall development pulled together, and if they are not running the game as a whole then basically no one is

Originally Posted by Brad

Okay heres my two cents:

I left graal the client for probably the last 4 years. I left the forums about 3 years ago. In these 3-4 years of being on hiatus I return. I return to find NOTHING different. The only thing different I've seen is that all of my friends are gone. UN continues to bring in the numbers simply because they hold regular events, have idiots/cool people, and have things to do. Those three reasons are what made 2k1 good, and in a bunch of our eyes, the best server ever. So heres what I'm getting at.. release something decent, whoever the new clown is that is running 2k1 DO SOMETHING, or watch as playerworlds die and iphone graal becomes the ONLY graal.

there has been significant changes which started to appear around the time you left. the change being from focusing on players to focusing on developers. if my memory serves me correctly, stefan personally ran 2k1 and classic when they first came out, and was taking head-on the responsibilities of being server staff. that won't happen anymore, because that's not stefan's job anymore. it's our (read developers) job to run the servers, create the updates, and make players interested: not CJs. the iphone comes very close to being a focus on players, but it's slightly different being on a different medium and being run by globals (xor is manager is he not?)

Originally Posted by Crono

Like I told you ingame, even classic iphone players are logging onto Graal and going "wow this sucks, we're going back to classic iphone". We've all witnessed this on UN etc. What is there to advertise? Ya let's advertise Zodiac, Era, and UN, because they all totally have quality content to show non-Graalians.

You know what my two closest buddies (I wouldn't dare show anyone else) did when I showed them these three servers? They laughed. Hard. And I completely agree with their notion.

Advertising is good, but only once there's something to advertise. Advertising development isn't enough. Look at the majority of the people on Graal. They're playing it.

and this is exactly the conflict which has become so evident to anyone who still regulars graal and gets on the client. the ratio of player:developer has to be at least 20:1, if not bigger. what has happened is that instead of focusing on the larger populous of the graal community as a whole, the focus has been solely on developers, and it's been going on for years. in theory, this focus should produce more content: the developers, who have the support they need, should be able to pump out awesome content that they want to create and give it to the players. of course, utopia is also a good idea in theory

the fact is, no matter how much you want to dress them up and give them titles and give them global rights and tags and free gold gralats, developers are STILL JUST PLAYERS. they still play the game and interact with the community, which is the core of what graal offers you. whether a player decides he's going to spar, or PK, or develop, or talk to other people who come online: they are still a player on the game run by CJ

the only people within this community who are not players, is (basically) stefan and unixmad. among anyone who has ever been apart of the graal community, the only people who are not players have to be stefan and unixmad, and the sole responsibility for running this game falls under the staff, not the players. only stefan could start making a new server and make is successful at this point, and it's not because i don't have faith in the developers within the community, but because i know for a fact that, if this was decided upon by stefan, it would actually happen (or at least have the highest assumptive success rate). the two highest populated moments in graal's history have been when stefan personally made/ran a server, and there shouldn't be any doubt that this correlation is related to graal's current status as a dying, crappy, unmentionable game to your friends that you have to hide like fetish porn

but, i've been told this many times, that it's up to us. that we're the problem for not making the new server ourselves. that stefan is doing more "important" things than making new content for graal. this is the same story that minorities are told when being discriminated against: they give them a badge of inferiority and told that THEY are the ones holding themselves back and are allowing themselves to feel discriminated against. it's a long stretch in many ways, but telling players that we're the problem for the lack of a good game that could potentially be advertised just doesn't fly with me: and oh, while we players are out creating the content to save graal, we also have to pay to do so

the problem and solution seem quite obvious. the action seems very distant

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by tempandrew

People need to actually start developing interesting servers with unique ideas, like the old days. Stuff that's developed now is just pure garbage. The few quality things that are produced on this heap of **** game are handled completely incorrectly, because you're all so desperate to keep people attracted, and you don't look at the big picture. You release one big project after the next, and people remain interested for a short period of time but it has a bandaid effect on a dam full of holes. Eventually the pressure will build up elsewhere and a new hole will spring, you'll need another bandaid to fix that one.

People need to start developing and releasing in an organized matter. It prolongs the interest and gets people involved in what the server has to offer. Don't make random ass quests that follow no story line. Put personality into your characters. You're developing for a game, remember that, this might be a poor quality 2D game, but follow the same rules any other game would follow. Story lines. Characters with personalities. When I play a game, there's always at least one character I just fall in love with, and I actually care what happened to that character. Say the character dies somewhere in the story, I'm like 'NOOOOOOOOOO', and I want to keep playing the game to seek revenge and kill the **** out of the bastard who took him out.

I'm rambling, but the point is, organize your servers better, everybody. You'll see a gigantic improvement in overall server quality and interest. I still agree advertising will help Graal as a whole even in it's current state, but I think Graal does need to start moving in a new direction as far as server development goes. Unholy Nation is the biggest mess of a server I've seen. It is probably the biggest compilation of tossed together ideas in Graal history, surpassing the disorganization of even examples like late Babylon/Delteria. And this is why servers do not last forever, and need to be started anew after so many years.

Wrong.
Take a look at the old successful servers.

Back in the day gameplay was simple and mmorpg mainly didn't exist or had expensive prices.
Today there are lot's of free licensed cashshop mmorpg (the game are mainly of south korean origin) that offer "good" 3d optics and gameplay.

The problem is:
To gain more players for graal, building playerworlds that are slightly better than other playerworlds just isn't enough anymore. You have to aim at the optics of professional 2d and 3d games - and in this point a playerworld just cannot compete.

We had plenty of nice attempts in creating playerworlds with professional optics, yet as the skill required to create these graphics rather reached a professional base, it's hard to find dedicated artists, as they have plenty better things to do. (Sorry guys, some (most?) of the artists we have rather seem to be here for the attention and admiration, not for really working hard to finish a playerworld)

Graal should become a real SDK - and CyberJoueurs should do their part in providing adequate materials and tools.
Pics1 just don't fit the common taste anymore (if you ignore retrogaming nostalgics).
Most of the times, playerworlds just lack the coding and graphics support to be successful - graal used to be something which amateurs could master. Today graal's former scripting is rather real programming.

[Daniel]

i request something else

[coreys]

Originally Posted by Darklux

Wrong....

Your post didn't cover any of the subjects that he did...so how exactly is he wrong? (p.s. he's completely right)

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by coreys

Your post didn't cover any of the subjects that he did...so how exactly is he wrong? (p.s. he's completely right)

Quoted for truth.

Also on the note of game development, I always looked at playerworld development as game development, and I wish more people did.

The geniuses over at Nintendo seem to focus on developing gameplay first then building story and other stuff around that. Someone should take a shot at that on Graal.

[coreys]

Originally Posted by Inverness

The geniuses over at Nintendo seem to focus on developing gameplay first then building story and other stuff around that. Someone should take a shot at that on Graal.

*raises hand* We are

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by coreys

Your post didn't cover any of the subjects that he did...so how exactly is he wrong? (p.s. he's completely right)

His post might not be nonsense, yet it's nothing that could help graal to get out of the current situation, as it's nothing that could really help the overall games.
It's sadly much more than "just make your servers slightly nicer, it will all work out".

In reality graal technically has become better and better over the last few years (play a playerworld from 2000 or 2001 for ten minutes, you will notice the difference), yet reality was faster. You won't catch people with expensive yet simple 2d, if they can play good 3d games for free (and on these games, sadly you have more options than on most existing playerworlds.). (Iam not stating that everything has to be 3d, highres 2d graphics can do the job, too)

We don't need to attract other graalians (cool! it has more features than era or zone! coolio!) as there are hardly any left - we have to attract the outside world. And I can't see this happen with the current level of skill required to provide content that is good enough for the outside world.
Back in 2000 people were still playing Diablo2 or Starcraft, in that point of view graal quite had an acceptable graphics quality.

[coreys]

Originally Posted by Darklux

His post might not be nonsense, yet it's nothing that could help graal to get out of the current situation, as it's nothing that could really help the overall games.
It's sadly much more than "just make your servers slightly nicer, it will all work out".

No, he's touching on the very issues that cause servers to either not be completely or not made well (or both).

[Daniel]

thats a complete LIE!

[Demisis_P2P]

i can make $200 making some sprites for iphone developers. So why would i pay $50 to make content for graal?

[Switch]

Since CJ feels as though Graal is a development platform, why not lease/sell the tools (server, RC, client, etc) to the developers that want to take a go at developing a game for themselves? This is what GarageGames does, and look at how successful it is. If people don't want to buy a server along with the tools they can allow CJ to host it.
Honestly the only way Graal will work out in the end given CJ's look on Graal.

By the way, I'm referring to PC Graal, not iPhone.

[_Z3phyr_]

i think that its very sad that you guys still care about this stuff. you've been pleading with those people for at least 7 years.

pobrecitos...


edit -- you guys are idiots for wasting your lives and brain power into this dead end. i'm glad i got out when i did.

edit^2 -- i laughed when i read stefan's post basically saying "lolwut?" to mr. aller's plea. i think that it symbolizes very well the relationship you guys have had with this game over the past decade. suruku was right.

edit^3 -- as an interesting bit of flavor to add to this delicious post of mine here and help hammer my point home, go look at the Board Index here and compare the number of posts in the "Future Improvements" board with the rest of the forum. i laughed.

[Brad]

Hiro, I respect your opinion.....however nothing you said is true. PLEASE graalians back me up here. NOTHING has changed whatsoever...all that you quoted me on is...well im gonna be respectful....bs

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Brad

Hiro, I respect your opinion.....however nothing you said is true. PLEASE graalians back me up here. NOTHING has changed whatsoever...all that you quoted me on is...well im gonna be respectful....bs

well, if what you mean is "nothing has changed on the servers themselves" then i agree with you, but most certainty the focus that stefan (and CJ as a whole) used to have on graal has changed quite a bit

[Trak]

If todays Graal Servers lack quality, lack gameplay and aren't worth advertising then why not make something that is worth advertising?

Isn't that why we have the Global Development Team? Have them start on a server which is fun to play, has quality and will attract a playercount.

Just a thought.

[cyan3]

Originally Posted by Trak

Isn't that why we have the Global Development Team? Have them start on a server which is fun to play, has quality and will attract a playercount.

It isn't the job of the Global Development Team to develop and build servers, It is to provide additional support and advice to development teams and also do minor development work for servers if needed. I believe some of the Global Development Team may adopt to using the Graal Bible to document development areas in the near future so it will be easier for developers to gain assistance and support.

[Trak]

Originally Posted by cyan3

It isn't the job of the Global Development Team to develop and build servers, It is to provide additional support and advice to development teams and also do minor development work for servers if needed. I believe some of the Global Development Team may adopt to using the Graal Bible to document development areas in the near future so it will be easier for developers to gain assistance and support.

I know but what I'm trying to say is, if they are truly as good as they're made out to be then why not have them make a server worth advertising? It may help bring the playercount back up..