Brutal Boycott.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by CidNight1142

If you believe the numbers that Draenin mentioned on map dropping in the HH

Everyone knows he was just reading level 107 destruction scrolls he made.

Originally Posted by MasterNuke

You need speed, wc, fast burst damage, and resists to do immenses.[/B]

Or a bow.

[hampy]

This isn't going to work... there was a kid massing out "Buying brutals 13 dias each!" o_O

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by CidNight1142

If you believe the numbers that Draenin mentioned on map dropping in the HH, hell, everyone should be rich! (My shenanigans still holds)

I could show you all of them in-game.

[CidNight1142]

Originally Posted by Draenin

I could show you all of them in-game.

That doesn't prove that they all came from 'messing around in the HH'. One could absolutely collect that many brutals and immenses. But it would take many hours (if done by killing fairly quickly with a bile weapon, which would be my main method.)

[Googi]

Originally Posted by CidNight1142

That doesn't prove that they all came from 'messing around in the HH'. One could absolutely collect that many brutals and immenses. But it would take many hours (if done by killing fairly quickly with a bile weapon, which would be my main method.)

Uh, I just told you that he used level 107 destruction scrolls.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by CidNight1142

That doesn't prove that they all came from 'messing around in the HH'. One could absolutely collect that many brutals and immenses. But it would take many hours (if done by killing fairly quickly with a bile weapon, which would be my main method.)

Yeah, it takes many hours to charge the mana used to write scrolls (30 mana is used per scroll.) but actually using the scrolls takes no time at all.

The main difference between our gathering methods is, you spend hours in the HH, I spend hours wherever I want writing. It takes about the same amount of time, it's just that I'm not stuck in a room all night long.

[jaws908]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Yeah, it takes many hours to charge the mana used to write scrolls (30 mana is used per scroll.) but actually using the scrolls takes no time at all.

The main difference between our gathering methods is, you spend hours in the HH, I spend hours wherever I want writing. It takes about the same amount of time, it's just that I'm not stuck in a room all night long.

so either way you werent just messing around, since you took the time to write the scrolls

[Torankusu]

Originally Posted by MasterNuke

1. Any newbie with some wc and 99 phys resist can do brutals. You need speed, wc, fast burst damage, and resists to do immenses.
2. One brutal takes less time to do than two immenses.
3. Lag kills. People with horrible computers won't survive an immense without preparations (resistance increasing consumables, instant health restoration consumables).
4. Brutals drop materials used in alchemy recipes that make EQUIPMENT.
5. Brutal map monsters are a higher level than ones in immense maps.

Brutals were only priced high because that is how much people wanted them over immenses.

Ed, quit fighting it. I have bought 5 brutals successfully for 4-5 diamonds.

[Draenin]

If the price does not go down naturally, there is a way to force it down.

[Zeltino]

I just successfully sold 3 brutals for 10 dias a piece. Whoo.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by jaws908

so either way you werent just messing around, since you took the time to write the scrolls

Of course, you can write scrolls using macros. Not that I'm making any accusations.

[Draenin]

Uhmn, Googi, have you ever tried readying a pen, opening your skills menu when it refreshes, and hotkeying the inscription skill? It's a nice feature. You should try it sometime.

And in a roundabout sort of way, yeah you are being accusatory. I'm not worried about it, though.

[MasterNuke]

Originally Posted by Torankusu

Ed, quit fighting it. I have bought 5 brutals successfully for 4-5 diamonds.

A lot of assumptions can be drawn from that. I was just simply stating why brutals were worth 10 diamonds. Do you have a problem with that?

[Devotchkas]

i saw just stop being poor and you wont complain about prices being high


end of story
that applies to all of you

[Luigi203]

Originally Posted by Devotchkas

i saw just stop being poor and you wont complain about prices being high


end of story
that applies to all of you

Yea, no matter what, somone is going to ***** and whine about something.

[Draenin]

Or you guys can stop being whiny instead about not being able to milk the dying cow that is GK's inflated economy.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Uhmn, Googi, have you ever tried readying a pen, opening your skills menu when it refreshes, and hotkeying the inscription skill? It's a nice feature.

And then you would use the macro. Hypothetically.

I'm not seriously suggesting Draenin macros though. Actually macros seem to have pretty much died out on 2K2.

[Draenin]

Man, if using a macro means holding down my W key or wedging a butter knife in the keyboard so the key sticks down, I better not ever press any buttons again.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Draenin

wedging a butter knife in the keyboard

So low-tech

[Draenin]

Even though it's stupid for me to do things the hard way, I'd rather do that than be lazy about it.

[Gothika]

Remember this? For those that were around in 2006 will know that brutals were reduced to 4 diamonds for a reason (eventually becoming 5 diamonds). Now people still believe their 20 diamonds a peice.

If we all agree to boycot paying 20 diamonds for a brutal map we can get the price back down to 5-6 diamonds.
Lets do it.

[seanthien]

Originally Posted by Gothika

Remember this? For those that were around in 2006 will know that brutals were reduced to 4 diamonds for a reason (eventually becoming 5 diamonds). Now people still believe their 20 diamonds a peice.

If we all agree to boycot paying 20 diamonds for a brutal map we can get the price back down to 5-6 diamonds.
Lets do it.

Honestly I don't think it'll work. There's always some crackpot that'll be a total loser and screw it up.

Secondly, it's sort of a good thing.
Maybe it'll make developers realize how horrible things are going and something good will come out of it. After all, not everything is just flat out horrible.

[CABAL49]

Originally Posted by Gothika

Remember this? For those that were around in 2006 will know that brutals were reduced to 4 diamonds for a reason (eventually becoming 5 diamonds). Now people still believe their 20 diamonds a peice.

If we all agree to boycot paying 20 diamonds for a brutal map we can get the price back down to 5-6 diamonds.
Lets do it.

Sounds like Socialism to me

[Crono]

Originally Posted by CABAL49

Sounds like Socialism to me

How?

[CABAL49]

Originally Posted by Crono

How?

First, I was kidding. Second, price ceiling.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by CABAL49

First, I was kidding. Second, price ceiling.

Third, i c.

[Mark Sir Link]

itt: people who don't understand economics discuss economics

[Jcs1919]

There's too many dias on GK, dias are worthless now
thats why players play 20 dias per brutal

[MajinDragon]

Originally Posted by Gothika

Remember this? For those that were around in 2006 will know that brutals were reduced to 4 diamonds for a reason (eventually becoming 5 diamonds). Now people still believe their 20 diamonds a peice.

If we all agree to boycot paying 20 diamonds for a brutal map we can get the price back down to 5-6 diamonds.
Lets do it.

I think the better solution would be to have it like this. Brutals = 2500 platinum coins } Universal. If people believe dias are so worthless, that shouldn't affect platinum, therefore 20dias = 1brutal = 2500plat. 1:125 dialat.
The problem is that dias have become less valuable in trade. But they are a stand-alone substitute currency and only affect prepping. But the fools of GK haven't considered that the real currency is platinum. And it's still considered 1dia:500plat. Because of this everything has gone up and although noobs might think this is a good thing, inflation isn't good for anybody. High levels need 2-5k for 5 levels with brutals, low levels won't even afford brutals and meanwhile, they won't get dests anymore because they aren't profitable to sell.

I tried to fix this all with raising dest prices but others stopped it and things have just gotten worse...

Originally Posted by Jcs1919

There's too many dias on GK, dias are worthless now
thats why players play 20 dias per brutal

So what if diamonds are worth less? Nothing should change. All it means is every1 who has invested in diamonds has lost alot. It's like if you had a rare in 03, came back in 06 to find it's more common, it loses value, but doesn't affect the economy. Imo Brutals = 2500plat, EC's = 12500plat etc. The old dia values should still apply to platinum which hasn't changed, it's just as available and useful as it was 2 years ago.

[Jcs1919]

Originally Posted by MajinDragon

So what if diamonds are worth less? Nothing should change. All it means is every1 who has invested in diamonds has lost alot. It's like if you had a rare in 03, came back in 06 to find it's more common, it loses value, but doesn't affect the economy. Imo Brutals = 2500plat, EC's = 12500plat etc. The old dia values should still apply to platinum which hasn't changed, it's just as available and useful as it was 2 years ago.

Brutals = 2500plat and EC's = 12500plat?

[MajinDragon]

Originally Posted by Jcs1919

Brutals = 2500plat and EC's = 12500plat?

That's what i believe the true value to be. They are the most traded commodities so i used them as an example.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

itt: people who don't understand economics discuss economics

Truth.

Originally Posted by Gothika

If we all agree to boycot paying 20 diamonds for a brutal map we can get the price back down to 5-6 diamonds.
Lets do it.

You will fail.

Originally, Stephen and I started competing for brutals, and that's what caused a lot of this. He was buying for 16, and I started to top his prices by offering 20 per brutal. Rebel all you want, but there will always be people out there like me who get competitive when it comes to buying on the market.

Even if you could convince everybody to go back to the old prices, I could simply buy up all of the brutals for a higher price than what you offer. I'd be cutting sellers a better deal on their brutals, and getting exactly what I want in return before others do.


Competition drives the market. Capitalism 101, sucka.

[MajinDragon]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Truth.
You will fail.

Originally, Stephen and I started competing for brutals, and that's what caused a lot of this. He was buying for 16, and I started to top his prices by offering 20 per brutal. Rebel all you want, but there will always be people out there like me who get competitive when it comes to buying on the market.

Even if you could convince everybody to go back to the old prices, I could simply buy up all of the brutals for a higher price than what you offer. I'd be cutting sellers a better deal on their brutals, and getting exactly what I want in return before others do.


Competition drives the market. Capitalism 101, sucka.

Why would you raise prices when self-farming + regular buying provides enough brutals at a low cost? I don't know if it's just because you're both low leveled, but the prices you're paying are ridiculous. The wealthiest players would go broke hitting high levels in phys/wis/magic (75++)

You can also level for free outside Crypt... And the exp is very good along with a high respawn rate.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by MajinDragon

Why would you raise prices when self-farming + regular buying provides enough brutals at a low cost? I don't know if it's just because you're both low leveled, but the prices you're paying are ridiculous. The wealthiest players would go broke hitting high levels in phys/wis/magic (75++)

You can also level for free outside Crypt... And the exp is very good along with a high respawn rate.

This was several months ago. Zombie exp was raised on Halloween, which was only about a week ago. We could both easily afford those prices, and in order for anyone to beat us out, they'd have to match or exceed what we were paying at the time.

While you might think it's a lot of cash, it's becoming mere pocket change as time goes on.

[seanthien]

Originally Posted by Draenin

(Blah..)

Crack pot loser.

Originally Posted by MajinDragon

Why would you raise prices when self-farming + regular buying provides enough brutals at a low cost? I don't know if it's just because you're both low leveled, but the prices you're paying are ridiculous. The wealthiest players would go broke hitting high levels in phys/wis/magic (75++)

You can also level for free outside Crypt... And the exp is very good along with a high respawn rate.

It's cuz he traded dem green platinum coins, and doesn't really need anything else if you ask me. He's got the gear, what else should he spend it on?

[MajinDragon]

Originally Posted by Draenin

This was several months ago. Zombie exp was raised on Halloween, which was only about a week ago. We could both easily afford those prices, and in order for anyone to beat us out, they'd have to match or exceed what we were paying at the time.

While you might think it's a lot of cash, it's becoming mere pocket change as time goes on.

You really haven't looked at the amount of experience zombies give (probably due to your laxed - i can pay for everything - approach). Regular zombies, which are avaliable for farming all year round, give about 2,000 a kill for a skill @ level 66 and i believe it stays very constant. Enough for Cell to level phys even at it's 95+ level.

And excuse me, but mere pocket change isn't 500-700diamonds for 1 level in 1 skill. A cost which only gets higher as you keep leveling. The only way to level through brutals is to self-farm. But this just damages the lower level struggle to earn money.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by MajinDragon

You really haven't looked at the amount of experience zombies give (probably due to your laxed - i can pay for everything - approach).

Uh, yes I have. I haven't bothered buying or running any brutals since the exp for them was raised.

[MajinDragon]

Originally Posted by Draenin

Uh, yes I have. I haven't bothered buying or running any brutals since the exp for them was raised.

So you've raised prices by brainwashing the extremely mentally handicapped population of GK into thinking that's what their worth and should be sold at to benefit yourself? That's the only logical reason to do such a thing.

It's profitable to sell maps, use the proceeds to buy Brutals at a ridiculous value, for long enough to make that 'the price'. And then, while that's going on, use your dests to spawn brutals and extort players with your self-made prices AND also extort the same noobs who you originally brainwashed by selling them 'cheap' at a discount which is still highly above the fair trade value of 5diamonds or 2500 plat.

Important to point out this would be a high risk venture for a single party, so it's likely there would be 2 or 3 people needed atleast.
Just a theory.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by MajinDragon

So you've raised prices by brainwashing the extremely mentally handicapped population of GK into thinking that's what their worth and should be sold at to benefit yourself? That's the only logical reason to do such a thing.

Did you miss the part where I was talking about competition with Stephen? It's not my fault GK's population relies on 'monkey see, monkey do' economics. Players see someone overpaying, and they automatically assume prices have changed or something.

Even players who were more informed on prices (not everyone on GK is 'extremely mentally handicapped' as you put it) still played a part in the prices rising, because they also wanted to compete with Stephen and I, and started buying and selling their maps at or above our prices. Neither of us specifically told other players the prices were at 16 or 20 diamonds apiece. We simply bought them for that much, and in order to get their hands on some while we were competing, other people had to beat or match the more-than-generous sums we were offering.

In all honesty, I think it'd be great if brutals were back down to five diamonds apiece. But really, what are the odds at this point in time?


Sellers are getting 4x as much as they were before, and more people can afford things even though prices on rarer items are still going up. 50 brutals would net someone 1000 diamonds at their current price, which they can get for cheap by doing inscription and farming. There's little reason to sell for less, because it means losing quite a lot of profit.

[Stephen]

For those of you less apt to observe - diamonds have depreciated, and as a result, brutals have become worth more diamonds. Brutals maintain their historic "conscious value" (the value a person consciously associates to an item) - although it's much more likely they have slightly depreciated as well, due to harvest ease via destruction scrolls.

Originally Posted by Draenin

Originally, Stephen and I started competing for brutals, and that's what caused a lot of this. He was buying for 16, and I started to top his prices by offering 20 per brutal. Rebel all you want, but there will always be people out there like me who get competitive when it comes to buying on the market.

To clearify, I have been solely the responsible catalyst for the great decline in brutal value (regarding dia depreciation). Initially Shrimps was buying at 15d to beat out other purchasers, who were buying at 10d. With my own personal motives, and large bounty of Diamonds from playing for over 4 years, I took competition in whoever would give me it. First shrimps at 16d, then Draenin.

However, the value of brutals - and essentially every other major consumable on Graal Kingdoms - was and still is doomed to depreciate due to the massive influx of destruction scrolls. They have made it very easy to harvest diamonds, rubies, sapphires, brutals, etc.

These are some of our common currencies, and it is easy to understand that when a currency becomes more bountiful it also becomes less valued.




I think what people need to recognize most is that Graal Kingdoms has ended an era of currency and is entering a new one - what these new currencies will be... I don't know; the players determine this based on the greatest demands in the market.

If I were to speculate I might think it would be EAs, Alchemy Recipes, and blessed items.

Originally Posted by seanthien

It's cuz he traded dem green platinum coins, and doesn't really need anything else if you ask me. He's got the gear, what else should he spend it on?

This is an irritatingly baseless argument to throw around. In my experience, observing the server, "green plat" trading can first only occur regularly within a very healthy economic market and secondly seems to drive the market further - new players see the wealth of power players and make a great effort to meet it via natural means.

That is my experience in observation, at the least.

Originally Posted by MajinDragon

So you've raised prices by brainwashing the extremely mentally handicapped population of GK into thinking that's what their worth and should be sold at to benefit yourself? That's the only logical reason to do such a thing.

He is not responsible, ultimately no one is - if we wanted to point fingers we could suggest those who produced destruction scrolls are responsible. However, they were just trying to "make a buck" like every other player and that is the natural mechanics of most MMO's, Graal Kingdoms (despite being a "MINIMALLY multi-player online game") is no exception.

It was bound to happen eventually, and whoever took the first step is not responsible - simply the pundit of the natural effect.

Originally Posted by Draenin

Did you miss the part where I was talking about competition with Stephen? It's not my fault GK's population relies on 'monkey see, monkey do' economics. Players see someone overpaying, and they automatically assume prices have changed or something.

To interject briefly, it's not really nonsensical "monkey see monkey do" - players are, as previously stated, trying to "make a buck"; when they see the opportunity to make a buck more easily on their EXISTING stock they're bound to pursue it.

Originally Posted by Draenin

Even players who were more informed on prices . . . still played a part in the prices rising, because they also wanted to compete with Stephen and I . . .

You're taking and giving too much credit. Neither of us are active enough to have influenced the market so directly in its current state. Although it's very possible I was active enough to give the initial increase in value - I was on nearly all day, at the time, and constantly spammed a very effective and clever image which could not be ignored even at a glance.

Originally Posted by Draenin

In all honesty, I think it'd be great if brutals were back down to five diamonds apiece. But really, what are the odds at this point in time?

This is a possible goal; harvesters simply need more destruction scrolls and better Brutal Harvesting techniques - although the effect is likely to concurrently depreciate diamond value.