Top Priorities For Classic

[xnervNATx]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

1) A use for tickets + gelats. Either find a way for players to spend everything they have, or just wipe it clean. Then make some useful npcs that are purchased with tickets.

.

dont ****ing make them get wiped out , i still got my 600 tickets noob.

oh and suggestion. Get Active GPs and stop messing with the hd , i think....dc changed it in events. now i wanna puke on it.

[BlackSolider]

Yes, the HD is now serverside in all gc levels.

Honestly no HD i've seen is perfect. Now, I haven't seen all the HDs people have mentioned, but honestly I doubt there is an HD that absolutely everyone will be happy with.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Yes Glad, you're right, no one is going to agree on which HD is the best, and everyone is going to complain regardless.

With clientside HD as is on Classic now, people are going to complain about missed hits all day until the end of time.

With serverside HD, I'm going to hear about the fabled EUROPEAN REACH that allows anyone in the UK to hit from 20 TILES AWAY(one third the size of a full level). Interestingly enough, the people that use that term are the same people that pride clientside HD for allowing them to never get hit by anything, especially projectiles.

Why serverside HD for events?
The events were built in and for the serverside HD world. CTF runs on the fact that people are hit a lot easier in serverside HD. With clientside HD, you have to spend a lot more time predicting where your opponent is going to be on their screen in relation to you or it's going to be difficult to land a hit. That's all nice for spars and PKing, but it cripples events like CTF, KoM, or all the rest of events built for the serverside.

The change to all the event dynamics caused so many complaints to GC that Night gave the go ahead to switch all gc levels back to serverside movement. Some people might enjoy slipping through a 3 man defense on a flag and returning the flag with extreme ease, but that isn't how the event is structured, and thats why CTF and events in general on classic are so dominant, save for sparring. I understand that the server is in Europe, but a 50-100ms difference in lag causing a 5-10-*20* tile hit? Give me a break, if anyone had any sort of problems with that, it would have been Night, the person who played on a 56K modem in the middle of rural Georgia on an 8 year old machine while the servers were back in Europe, before anything got moved. However, he had absolutely no problems with reach hits or playing events, he thrived in CTF. The one US player who would have had the most justification crying "reach hit", called the move back to serverside HD.
What does that tell you?
I'm a US player and I've never had this problem, not even remotely, I think its an excuse for people who lose. Please, show me a video of someone hitting you from 20 tiles away, or even 5, so they can be banned.

Don't get me wrong, I knew exactly where Thor was coming from with clientside HD. Thor is well on his way to be on par or even past Tyhm as far as Development Admining goes. Everyone cried about serverside HD not being classic, ruining sparring/PKing on classic and whatnot. He gave the players essentially what they wanted, a replica of default HD(that is as close to default as you're going to get, default isnt coming back. It would break the server to where everything would have to be remade AGAIN, and you can kiss any chance of NEW content goodbye), which is what you're SUPPOSED to do as the Dev Admin. However, it just happened to have a negative impact since events were loosely based on how serverside HD functioned. I personally wouldn't have done it because most of the people whining to bring default HD back, already have long since moved to a different server or quit the entire game, and no matter what they tell you, they aren't going to come back to Classic. Thor tried giving you guys what everyone WANTED, and you guys even voted FOR it, and then when it happened, you turn the other cheek and cry about events being ruined, because you never thought about that aspect, did you?

I hear both sides to the HD war, I'll try to reach some sort of middle, making it toggleable, recoil and all, even though its silly to have to constantly transition between two different HDs. You guys need to accept the fact though, that there is going to be no compromise on which HD is better. there will be opponents to both, and noone is going to end up happy. We have to appease the majority here, and it doesnt help that the majority flip flops their opinion. However, I'm not going to spend much more time on the damn HD, its more reworking on existing stuff, which takes time away from NEW content, which everyone wants more of. Specifically, if I spend my time on the HD mess, that is time I'm not spending on cards. All the time Thor spends retooling HD and whatnot, thats time he and his dev team aren't spending on new content. Do us all a favor, and reach a middle ground on HD so we don't have to spend our resources trying to do it for you.

[BlackSolider]

All of that is correct, I do believe.

I've seen thor get reach hits from a tile or two away before. Hell I've been reached from behind on 1 hp by thor when I was about to break away for a score. I still can picture exactly this one time in ctf indoor2 where I made a miraculous escape from the base w/ 1 hp, only to have thor reach me as I started to make my journey back.

Now the "20 tiles away" part is just mystic exaggerating as usual. But make no mistake, thor+mighty and a few others had a reach that helped them from time to time.

Honestly, this is what I want from an HD:
-When I see myself hit someone, they get hit.
-When I hit someone down, they go down; not through me.
-When I see a sword come close but not hit me, I don't want to be hit.

I don't know if all of that is possible, especially not for each person. It is incredibly difficult, I theorize, to make it work all the time when you play against laggers, since they are always a tile or so ahead of where they appear. Thus when you hit them (on serverside, since you wouldn't hit them at all on clientside) they recoil from they are, not where you see them. Thus it appears they "move through you" and such. Is it possible for an HD to solve this? Perhaps not. Should some people get better connections? Probably. Should the rest of us learn to counter this? Possibly.

All I know is, when I see myself hit someone, I want them to be hit. If I can't trust my eyes, I don't know what I can trust.

[MysticX2X]

Everyone would be fine with default HD imo. Better than Clientside and definately better than Serverside...

@DC: I know you got that 20 tile exaggeration from me. While it's not that far of a reach, it still is absurd to be hit from a far range by the europeans. I have the best possible connection I can get in my area and to have the odds of winning against a european player against me seems fair enough? Notice how they are the ones who are complaining the most?

Also I'm not very sure if CTF was designed on the basis of serverside HD if i was told that CTF existed even before NPC server.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Also I'm not very sure if CTF was designed on the basis of serverside HD if i was told that CTF existed even before NPC server.

CTF wasn't, but the majority of the gametypes were developed with how the serverside hit detection effected the gameplay on them. This is not limited to just CTF either, but as it is probably the most popular event on the server it's a good example to make.

[BlackSolider]

Originally Posted by Rufus

as it is probably the most popular event on the server

Vast understatement. I'll explain in a post in the '4 years' thread later on.

[maximus_asinus]

New suggestion, RC to Player ratio must be 1:1 at minimum. Kevin logged on earlier and there was 7 idling RCs and Kevin was the only one on player.

[BlackSolider]

Yeah RCs vastly inflate the playercount and it confuses GCs to no end:
"Oh we have 22 players online, I'll host an 8 man spar tourney!"
2 minutes later:
"Still needing 3 more for a spar tourney..."

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

I've seen thor get reach hits from a tile or two away before. Hell I've been reached from behind on 1 hp by thor when I was about to break away for a score. I still can picture exactly this one time in ctf indoor2 where I made a miraculous escape from the base w/ 1 hp, only to have thor reach me as I started to make my journey back.

Now the "20 tiles away" part is just mystic exaggerating as usual. But make no mistake, thor+mighty and a few others had a reach that helped them from time to time.

The idea of reach hits would stem from a person with a better connection to the server, seeing someone with a less optimal connection to the server, lagging behind. The difference would be the attacking players lag subtracting the laggier persons lag. With a difference of 100ms, which should be a little above the normal difference due to server distance.(my ping changed from 200ms to 250ms from the server move to Europe) We're probably talking about a .5-1 tile sync error maximum, which is more consistent with what Glad is saying. Not 5-20 tiles, unless you have a ping of around 2K to 3K, if that's the case, you have bigger problems than the HD. On the other side of things, this difference in lag to the server would allow laggier players to sort of 'reverse reach hit', where you could pre-slash an area where someone was going to be.
Isn't that how clientside HD works in reverse with respect to lag?

In summary, no matter any HD, as long as people lag at different rates, and thus being out of sync, the HD is going to be out of sync relative to what everyone sees. Until everyone can have the same lag and ping, people are going to experience different things being seen and being experienced amongst one another. There is always going to be a disadvantage/advantage and pre hitting vs reach hitting with respect to lag differences. All you're doing with HD switches is changing how that operates and swapping the (dis)advantages around, which will cause people to have to adjust, which no one really likes to do.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Everyone would be fine with default HD imo. Better than Clientside and definately better than Serverside...

I already said, default isn't going to happen.
All of classic's content for the past 4 years, has been built around the myriad of custom systems.
I'm not saying it was a good idea to switch, especially to the jumble of disorganization we call classic's systems. However, that's the reality of things. Switching back to default HD would cripple a vast majority of the 4 years of development, and leave us with a bunch of broken scripts in todays levels, you could convert the old 4 year old systems, but that would take even more time. Classic can't afford to continue rebuilding the same things over and over.

Originally Posted by Rufus

CTF wasn't, but the majority of the gametypes were developed with how the serverside hit detection effected the gameplay on them.

All of the gametypes, save for CTF small(this was the really old CTF that was in Graal Castle pre NPC server, was mostly unused, so I don't blame anyone for not remembering it), we're built after the NPC server transistion. All of the systems we're rebuilt by Ibonic after the NPC server transistion. CTF as it is today, is 95% built during serverside HD, and therefore naturally favors it.
You could redesign everything, including the systems, around clientside HD, but I'm definitely not going to spend that amount of time redoing the existing content.

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

New suggestion, RC to Player ratio must be 1:1 at minimum. Kevin logged on earlier and there was 7 idling RCs and Kevin was the only one on player.

7 RCs and no clients? That sounds a bit exaggerated. Only people I know of to habitually idle on RC are WD and Ben Rain, everyone else usually is active on RC with a client logged in. The problem of RC to player ratio is that most of the people playing at any given time are RC wielding staff members. You could argue that's a bad thing if it isn't necessary, but you could also argue that the more dev power the better, since its mostly dev staff on RC at any given time.

[jorollychu]

there have been so many npcs made by whitedragon that he always plays around with off tag that could have been released as gc prizes but for some reason havent been. such bs.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Rufus

CTF wasn't, but the majority of the gametypes were developed with how the serverside hit detection effected the gameplay on them. This is not limited to just CTF either, but as it is probably the most popular event on the server it's a good example to make.

That doesn't even make sense LOL. How could someone even design a map to suit serverside HD? I can't even think how a map favors serverside HD or Clientside HD.

I already said, default isn't going to happen.
All of classic's content for the past 4 years, has been built around the myriad of custom systems.
I'm not saying it was a good idea to switch, especially to the jumble of disorganization we call classic's systems. However, that's the reality of things. Switching back to default HD would cripple a vast majority of the 4 years of development, and leave us with a bunch of broken scripts in todays levels, you could convert the old 4 year old systems, but that would take even more time. Classic can't afford to continue rebuilding the same things over and over.

Pretty sure I have suggested the idea of making a HD similar to default. Kat responded that he did in fact make a HD that replicated default but something about not feeling like converting all the systems to work with it. I mean, if they could convert everything to Clientside, why not default?

All of the gametypes, save for CTF small(this was the really old CTF that was in Graal Castle pre NPC server, was mostly unused, so I don't blame anyone for not remembering it), we're built after the NPC server transistion. All of the systems we're rebuilt by Ibonic after the NPC server transistion. CTF as it is today, is 95% built during serverside HD, and therefore naturally favors it.
You could redesign everything, including the systems, around clientside HD, but I'm definitely not going to spend that amount of time redoing the existing content.

CTF should not be the reason to revert the HD for all events back to serverside HD. CTF ran fine with Clientside HD and i was actually starting to get the hang of Clientside. Too many people are frustrated with the fact that they can't hit accurately because they simply like to bash their S key. I've told Gladius on the GC boards a similar situation of being good on Counterstrike, then having Halo come out, and instantly think you can still play the same. I'm not sure how many complaints default would get up the ass if that type of HD were to be implemented, and the most favored HD since that is also clientside....

I mean, if you'd like to see a European win the monthly spar every time from now on, then you have to be pretty stubborn and naive.

7 RCs and no clients? That sounds a bit exaggerated. Only people I know of to habitually idle on RC are WD and Ben Rain, everyone else usually is active on RC with a client logged in.

And Clel, and Kat, and Elk.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

That doesn't even make sense LOL. How could someone even design a map to suit serverside HD? I can't even think how a map favors serverside HD or Clientside HD.

It suits serverside HD because it was made when serverside HD was the current HD. That's what it was tested with, designed with, and played and honed with. Changing the dynamics of HD naturally changes the dynamics of something made with serverside HD.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Pretty sure I have suggested the idea of making a HD similar to default. Kat responded that he did in fact make a HD that replicated default but something about not feeling like converting all the systems to work with it. I mean, if they could convert everything to Clientside, why not default?

Who are you honestly going to please enough to bring back regularly? A few people? That isn't balanced with the amount of effort it takes to make a HD AND implement it properly into classic. HD's arent new content, I'd rather see our development resources go towards not remaking something for the nth time. Then everyone might stop whining about how theres nothing to do.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

CTF should not be the reason to revert the HD for all events back to serverside HD.

It isn't, but its a major portion. I can't help CTF is over 3/4ths of events hosted.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

CTF ran fine with Clientside HD and i was actually starting to get the hang of Clientside.

What CTF were you playing? The CTF everyone else is playing has missed hits all over the place. In a game that counts on people getting hit often, thats not a good mix.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Too many people are frustrated with the fact that they can't hit accurately because they simply like to bash their S key. I've told Gladius on the GC boards a similar situation of being good on Counterstrike, then having Halo come out, and instantly think you can still play the same. I'm not sure how many complaints default would get up the ass if that type of HD were to be implemented, and the most favored HD since that is also clientside....

It isn't a matter of S bashing and accuracy. In a perfect world with everyone having the same lag, everyone would see the same thing happening on their screen, and noone would complain. This isn't the case, people lag, some more than others, which causes what you see and what another sees to be out of sync. It isn't a matter of accuracy, it's a matter of sync. If everyone was sync'd, you could have ANY HD work well, clientside, serverside or whatever in between, because everyone would be in agreeance with what they see happening.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

And Clel, and Kat, and Elk.

All of those people definitely aren't habitual idlers, maybe for a couple hours at a time but not anywhere near 24/7. When I log in at night or at dawn, I see WD and BR, thats it.

[BlackSolider]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

In summary, no matter any HD, as long as people lag at different rates, and thus being out of sync, the HD is going to be out of sync relative to what everyone sees. Until everyone can have the same lag and ping, people are going to experience different things being seen and being experienced amongst one another. There is always going to be a disadvantage/advantage and pre hitting vs reach hitting with respect to lag differences. All you're doing with HD switches is changing how that operates and swapping the (dis)advantages around, which will cause people to have to adjust, which no one really likes to do.

Totally true. The only logical solution is to have the system give the advantage to the majority; because if the majority is at a disadvantage, they would be pissed and not play. Is it fair to the rest of the players? Not really. But nothing is ever going to be fair since we're all on different connections. Tyranny of the majority is the only solution!

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

It suits serverside HD because it was made when serverside HD was the current HD. That's what it was tested with, designed with, and played and honed with. Changing the dynamics of HD naturally changes the dynamics of something made with serverside HD.

I will agreeably admit CTF sumo might be the only map screwed over by Clientside HD.

Who are you honestly going to please enough to bring back regularly? A few people? That isn't balanced with the amount of effort it takes to make a HD AND implement it properly into classic. HD's arent new content, I'd rather see our development resources go towards not remaking something for the nth time. Then everyone might stop whining about how theres nothing to do.

People from all over Graal? N-pulsians? Unholy Nation sparrers? Return of some Classicians who didn't want to play on a *** HD? You want to know why most sparrers go to Unholy Nation? Because they easily have the best spar system with the good ol' Default HD. Bringing a HD similar to default would return the competitive essence to this server since i particularly haven't seen any in a great amount of time, and attract people from all over. A majority of everything depends on the HD. Most people don't even come to Classic because of the terrible HD we have now, and I mean serverside.

What CTF were you playing? The CTF everyone else is playing has missed hits all over the place. In a game that counts on people getting hit often, thats not a good mix.

Large, Indoor1, indoor 2, future. Haven't particularly experienced Small with Clientside for long but it was good. I will only grant that CTF Sumo is the map that was affected most by the Clientside HD. Other than that, any other map seems normal to me. I have to time myself right, but if i can at least be hit fairly, then it's good enough for me to get accustomed to. You don't even play events so you don't know how unfair it seems to get to not even touch a european player without losing half of your hp first regardless of skill. It's not my fault people didn't want to get accustomed to a new HD hence it's 2 month oldness.

It isn't a matter of S bashing and accuracy. In a perfect world with everyone having the same lag, everyone would see the same thing happening on their screen, and noone would complain. This isn't the case, people lag, some more than others, which causes what you see and what another sees to be out of sync. It isn't a matter of accuracy, it's a matter of sync. If everyone was sync'd, you could have ANY HD work well, clientside, serverside or whatever in between, because everyone would be in agreeance with what they see happening.

You're right, we all have different pings. I can't help myself getting hit so easily because I have the best internet service i can get in the area and I'm not upgrading to t1 just to have fun on Classic. Clientside was more in favor of laggers. Laggers are stoppable. UN has put up with them. Classic can't? On serverside, I lag to the europeans. Can i prevent myself from being hit from so far away because the server thinks im 3 tiles back from what i see on my screen? Not the likely case.