Pirates at the big 5 meeting.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

Uh..unless you're saying my post is spam, then what you just did makes no sense...
And since my post isn't spam, as it shows you the "new level system" is riddled with exp bugs...uh...I'll just leave it at that.

Now, I could call you a liar since you could be making the bug up. And yes, I was saying your post is pointless. And if the level system is bugged, why do you choose not to help fix it?
And if you're referring to the party one, I don't think that's a bug.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by Lance

So here's what I'm saying: You have to separate in your mind roleplaying from game mechanics. They're two extremely distinct things, and if you let the latter dominate, then you won't have much of the former, or at least nothing really with quality. The latter's meant to be support, help, assistance...but certainly not for setting all of the rules for you. You are supposed to use your imagination, and I think most people would agree with saying that's what roleplaying is all about.

I understand what you're saying, but who's fault is it if the level 5 guy can't be bothered to level?

[Lance]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

I understand what you're saying, but who's fault is it if the level 5 guy can't be bothered to level?

Who cares? That's game mechanics, not roleplaying.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by Lance

Who cares? That's game mechanics, not roleplaying.

Why do you choose to complain then?

[Lance]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Why do you choose to complain then?

Okay, you know what? Just read the post. I made it crystal clear why i was complaining.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by Lance

Because some stupid people cannot tell the difference between the two?

I guess.

But once again, who's fault is it the level 5 can't be bothered?
Hint, it's the level 5's fault. If the level 5 player wants to interact with others during roleplay, What's stopping them?
Their game mechanics? No, it's their fault for not even trying to enchance RP.
Game Mechanics enchance RP. They make RP more fun.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

And if you're referring to the party one, I don't think that's a bug.

Well damn if you want me to post the bug I will in a few minutes.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

Well damn if you want me to post the bug I will in a few minutes.

I don't really care, you didn't answer my question though.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

why did you choose not to help fix it?

[Changed 'Do' to 'did'.]

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

I don't really care, you didn't answer my question though.

Well if you don't care, why should I?

[xAndrewx]

Why would I want a level 'glitch'? You're better off telling an admin.
This is leading back to the

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Now, I could call you a liar since you could be making the bug up.

[Butz]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

I guess.

But once again, who's fault is it the level 5 can't be bothered?
Hint, it's the level 5's fault. If the level 5 player wants to interact with others during roleplay, What's stopping them?
Their game mechanics? No, it's their fault for not even trying to enchance RP.
Game Mechanics enchance RP. They make RP more fun.

Wandering around and slaying monsters for hours on end is simply not some people's cup of tea. It's not something they consider fun. In fact, it's boring.
There's very little to break the tedium of endless grinding and camping lords, as the selection of monsters is horribly low and unvaried.
If you tell them that they have to do it to be able to participate in RP, they're going to give up and leave.
People should be able to enter the game, with the same ability to participate in RP as someone who has been playing the game for months.

Look at it simply.
RP is an organic thing. It changes. It's determined by the imaginations and actions of the players involved, as well as documented stories from past situations they can draw on. You cannot possibly recreate the effects of imagination using set formulas and a random number generator.

[Cheops]

Will somebody *please* give a detailed example of the type of interaction the aforementioned level 5 and level 100 would have to wage an RP battle against each other? I'm really, honest-to-God curious how the two could interact in a meaningful and coherent way, without it being one's say over the other... Please, someone, anyone.

[Zero Hour]

What do level bugs, and glitches have to do with "Pirates At the Big 5 Summit" o.o?

[Lance]

Originally Posted by Zero Hour

What do level bugs, and glitches have to do with "Pirates At the Big 5 Summit" o.o?

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...&postcount=114

[Zero Hour]

Originally Posted by Cheops

Will somebody *please* give a detailed example of the type of interaction the aforementioned level 5 and level 100 would have to wage an RP battle against each other? I'm really, honest-to-God curious how the two could interact in a meaningful and coherent way, without it being one's say over the other... Please, someone, anyone.

Yea, I have to agree.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Cheops

Will somebody *please* give a detailed example of the type of interaction the aforementioned level 5 and level 100 would have to wage an RP battle against each other? I'm really, honest-to-God curious how the two could interact in a meaningful and coherent way, without it being one's say over the other... Please, someone, anyone.

Like I said in the other thread. That's the idea behind Kingdom Mode. So they can battle with equal stats and equipment.

[Cheops]

Like I said in the other thread:

Originally Posted by Cheops

Will somebody *please* give a detailed example of the type of interaction the aforementioned level 5 and level 100 would have to wage an RP battle against each other?

The K-mode suggestion just seems like alteration of the present game mechanics, ones that benefit those at lower levels. I still do not understand how it enhances RP (it goes back to Raziel's shoemaker v.s. swordsman example). What I contend is that the present game mechanics anchor roleplay in objective, concrete comparisons. Sure, I could RP that I am so strong thet even such and such couldn't kill me, and then someone esle could RP that in fact, *they* are so strong, they could easily fell me in one swipe. How can the strength of an RP be measured? On the other hand, level 100 v.s. level 5 is a tangible (as tangible as a game can be) difference on which the RP overlay can play out. That's what I'm getting at: the game mechanics are the foundation of the game, RP is the important overlay which is informed by the game mechanics.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Cheops

I still do not understand how it enhances RP (it goes back to Raziel's shoemaker v.s. swordsman example). What I contend is that the present game mechanics anchor roleplay in objective, concrete comparisons. Sure, I could RP that I am so strong thet even such and such couldn't kill me, and then someone esle could RP that in fact, *they* are so strong, they could easily fell me in one swipe. How can the strength of an RP be measured?

You don't measure the strength of an RP character, you just fight with them. Without K-Mode, the vast majority of players become irrelevant in a fight.

[Cheops]

Originally Posted by Googi

You don't measure the strength of an RP character, you just fight with them. Without K-Mode, the vast majority of players become irrelevant in a fight.

I see no point---as has been pointed out: work to make the fight even by levelling your character to match your expectations of strength. It becomes an issue not of RP but of game mechanics exclusively, and in my opinion hinders RP. For example, if Cheops' RP character is invulnerable to Googi (for whatever reason), but both are on equal footing in K-mode, and Cheops is slain, that detracts from his RP. Whereas if Cheops grounded his RP character in the concrete foundation of game mechanics (e.g. if he were level 100 and Googi was level 5) then there would be no question as to the outcome of the RP encounter.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Cheops

that detracts from his RP

Then don't do *****ic things like make RP characters invulnerable to other people's.

[Lance]

Originally Posted by Cheops

Sure, I could RP that I am so strong thet even such and such couldn't kill me, and then someone esle could RP that in fact, *they* are so strong, they could easily fell me in one swipe.

It's called self-regulation (or, in certain cases when self-regulation has not been successful, administratively enforced regulation). You don't let people do stupid things like that and call it RP.

[Cheops]

Another review, to keep the context traceable:

Originally Posted by Googi

08-02-2005, 05:46PM PST
Then don't do *****ic things like make RP characters invulnerable to other people's.

Originally Posted by Lance

08-02-2005, 05:50PM PST
It's called self-regulation (or, in certain cases when self-regulation has not been successful, administratively enforced regulation). You don't let people do stupid things like that and call it RP.

I was just reminded of the examples that inspired my inquiry:

Originally Posted by Zurkiba

07-31-2005, 08:36PM PST
Your character couldn't touch the slayer of the Samurai nation, conquerer of the Bomies.

Originally Posted by Zurkiba

08-01-2005, 08:36AM PST
However, I do know that a Queen of Dustari from a while back (Zoe) could kill me in one hit. And I'm sure that a Queen of Dustari wouldn't be able to kill the Elder Zurkiba Zaeri- conquerer of the Bomy Nation, slayer of the Samurai nation, controller of 3/4s of the world.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Cheops

Another review, to keep the context traceable:
I was just reminded of the examples that inspired my inquiry:

What point are you trying to make? That Zurkiba does dumb stuff too? We know.

[Zurkiba]

Originally Posted by Googi

What point are you trying to make? That Zurkiba does dumb stuff too? We know.

That bastard

[Lance]

Originally Posted by Cheops

Another review, to keep the context traceable:

I was just reminded of the examples that inspired my inquiry:

You do realize, of course, that either they're figures of speech (with the latter also referring to ingame mechanics), talking about RPing skill, or he's making a conjecture over whether or not a Queen would be adequately trained in arms?

[Zurkiba]

Originally Posted by Lance

You do realize, of course, that either they're figures of speech (with the latter also referring to ingame mechanics), talking about RPing skill, or he's making a conjecture over whether or not a Queen would be adequately trained in arms?

I believe he's reffering to the times where Zurkiba Zaeri was a frontline-regent as he conquered the Bomy Gang and the Samurai Nation.

I dunno though

[Googi]

Haha, remember when TrueHeat just decided to delete Zormite?

[Zurkiba]

Originally Posted by Googi

Haha, remember when TrueHeat just decided to delete Zormite?

Yeah.. it was around the same time some Karakaze members were running around going

LOL *pisses on Zormite castle* LOL

[Cheops]

Originally Posted by Lance

You do realize, of course, that either they're figures of speech (with the latter also referring to ingame mechanics), talking about RPing skill, or he's making a conjecture over whether or not a Queen would be adequately trained in arms?

Nope. To me it doesn't look like they're any of those. In their original context, the first was a rebuttal to *Debaglio's statement "I could kill their level 8 (zurk) leader in one blow. While none of you could touch me with my -87 AC, and 98% magic resistance," which is *exactly* the kind of scenario I brought up. While the second was his rebuttal to *xAndrewx's question "You expect not to be killed, when roleplaying?" But I don't want to assume meanings from someone else, maybe *Zurkiba can explain what that means, if I'm in error.

[xAndrewx]

KMode is a place where low levels can RP. I don't think it's fair that the 'low level' players can't be bothered to level, yet they expect the whole game to change for themself.

[Zurkiba]

Originally Posted by Cheops

Nope. To me it doesn't look like they're any of those. In their original context, the first was a rebuttal to *Debaglio's statement "I could kill their level 8 (zurk) leader in one blow. While none of you could touch me with my -87 AC, and 98% magic resistance," which is *exactly* the kind of scenario I brought up. While the second was his rebuttal to *xAndrewx's question "You expect not to be killed, when roleplaying?" But I don't want to assume meanings from someone else, maybe *Zurkiba can explain what that means, if I'm in error.

I still dont understand what you're pointing out or asking.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

KMode is a place where low levels can RP. I don't think it's fair that the 'low level' players can't be bothered to level, yet they expect the whole game to change for themself.

So you dont think it's fair if low level people actually get to enjoy the server and roleplay? It's a condradicting statement to say it's fair to exclude a mass of people from playing the game.

If all were to be even on the battlefield, you would actually see good wars. Why dont you go ask some kingdom leaders if they'd be willing to invade Dustari when Drk is king - most will say no. Why? Because they couldn't handle him. I've heard this statement myself.

And it's not the whole game. It's a bell on the island. You ring it, this icon pops over your head, your stats are a constant. You can still level up if you want, you can still pk if you want. However these changes will make a game, not a place where kids whine about how they spent hours levelling up and now it's useless. You keep say that the server changed, nothing you can do about it. Apparently that's only true when you favor that change.

And if you would read my extremely long post about how I levelled up, you would understand that I did bother to level up. When I was levelling up, level 5 was the normal and level 8-10 meant you was a power gamer. I've spent hours on end to get to my level with my crude weapons.

Kmode would encourage roleplaying to its highest degree. Now kingdoms will invade other kingdoms without worrying about if that leader as that Plate Armor of God (+777 defense) or whatever. It would give them a reason to recruite people in, and it would give them a reason to keep them active. Kingdom events could occur and the entire server would open up.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by Zurkiba

So you dont think it's fair if low level people actually get to enjoy the server and roleplay? It's a condradicting statement to say it's fair to exclude a mass of people from playing the game.

If all were to be even on the battlefield, you would actually see good wars. Why dont you go ask some kingdom leaders if they'd be willing to invade Dustari when Drk is king - most will say no. Why? Because they couldn't handle him. I've heard this statement myself.

And it's not the whole game. It's a bell on the island. You ring it, this icon pops over your head, your stats are a constant. You can still level up if you want, you can still pk if you want. However these changes will make a game, not a place where kids whine about how they spent hours levelling up and now it's useless. You keep say that the server changed, nothing you can do about it. Apparently that's only true when you favor that change.

And if you would read my extremely long post about how I levelled up, you would understand that I did bother to level up. When I was levelling up, level 5 was the normal and level 8-10 meant you was a power gamer. I've spent hours on end to get to my level with my crude weapons.

Kmode would encourage roleplaying to its highest degree. Now kingdoms will invade other kingdoms without worrying about if that leader as that Plate Armor of God (+777 defense) or whatever. It would give them a reason to recruite people in, and it would give them a reason to keep them active. Kingdom events could occur and the entire server would open up.

If you can't beat the guy, become the guy.
Level up, we're not stopping you. You're stopping yourself.

[Butz]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

If you can't beat the guy, become the guy.
Level up, we're not stopping you. You're stopping yourself.

I don't know how many times I can say this, but he shouldn't have to level up just to participate in a RP setting. As Lance stated, game mechanics and roleplay are two separate things. The current game mechanics do not support roleplay very well, so the choices are to either ignore the game mechanics completely when dealing with RP (which would be ideal really), or to hit the middle ground and implement a set of game mechanics that does support roleplaying, ie: Kingdom Mode.
You seem to be under the assumption that if this were to happen, that it would alter everything about the server and chase people away, but I've stated many times now that things like this should be taken into account with kingdom roleplaying. Nobody is going to run by and say "Hey! You can't level up anymore, you're in KMode permanently". KMode is specially made for Roleplaying, because Kingdoms should be stronger than players, not the other way around.

[xAndrewx]

Butz, kingdom mode is 2002-, we don't live in that era anymore.
Well, if he doesn't need to level, why in hell is he talking about it? If he doesn't need to be a high level, why mention it?

[Butz]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Butz, kingdom mode is 2002-, we don't live in that era anymore.
Well, if he doesn't need to level, why in hell is he talking about it? If he doesn't need to be a high level, why mention it?

Things were changed once, things can be changed again, that's what's nice about change, it's always possible.

Look around you. Graal Kingdoms' playercount has been steadily dwindling for months now, people are leaving, and not as many people are coming in to replace them.
If anything, we should be striving to be like the 2002 era, instead of dismissing it as some fable from the past which can never be acheived again. I used to be able to log on to GK in the morning and see about 30-40 people online. Now I can log in during late-afternoon/early-evening and be lucky to see just a little over that. Graal Kingdoms in its current state as a "game of items" is apparently doing a bad job of keeping players.

[Zurkiba]

Originally Posted by Butz

Things were changed once, things can be changed again, that's what's nice about change, it's always possible.

Look around you. Graal Kingdoms' playercount has been steadily dwindling for months now, people are leaving, and not as many people are coming in to replace them.
If anything, we should be striving to be like the 2002 era, instead of dismissing it as some fable from the past which can never be acheived again. I used to be able to log on to GK in the morning and see about 30-40 people online. Now I can log in during late-afternoon/early-evening and be lucky to see just a little over that. Graal Kingdoms in its current state as a "game of items" is apparently doing a bad job of keeping players.

He only accepts change if it's in his favor...

If America went fascist and conquered England. And put all of the English folks in work camps. I highly doubt he would be telling all the rebels that 'English control over England was last month. Things change and so we -have- to accept this new form of life'.

[Ziro_of_the_Turks]

I'm a supporter of RPing. In fact, as proof- I was removed from leadership of a kingdom which got this whole topic started because I was for the RPing TOO much (I wanted much stricter rules, got full of myself, and let some crazy ideas into play- while still having RPing being the obvious cause with no doubt to that or ability to argue), and the solution was to replace me with non-RPing leadership.

Anyhoo, my point is. Even if you're arguing for game mechanics- there's still the fact that that itself is not perfect either. In fact, is it not very so flawed? One big complaint I have- items which were once able to be created and can no longer be created. Such a thing should not exist. Examples of these items are ice daggers and random alchemy items. They still exist, right? They might have been altered a little having speed removed or something, but they're still around and more powerful than anything you can make now, right?

Also, people may leave GK if it were changed for us, the RPing community, HOWEVER, there would be many more to come back to replace them. MANY players have left GK because of the problems we are constantly begging and begging to have changed.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by Zurkiba

He only accepts change if it's in his favor...

No, you're the one who wants change in your favour.
I don't really care about items, I have none!
If you ask players, they play GK for the levels, items and wars.
Sure, we can make it RP, but they won't like it if you're asking for a reset.

[Zurkiba]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

No, you're the one who wants change in your favour.
I don't really care about items, I have none!
If you ask players, they play GK for the levels, items and wars.
Sure, we can make it RP, but they won't like it if you're asking for a reset.

Can you read? Or atleast attempt to read what we're talking about? This entire time have you been running around in circles in a dandelion field being oblivious to what the world is saying?

K-mode would not bring a reset, it doesn't alter the current game. All it does is add more options to the game. You ring a bell and this icon appears over your head and then you have equal stats. With those equal stats only others in K-mode can harm you and they are in equal stats also. The items will still be out there, levelling will still be out there, and so on.

Everyone's not going to join the roleplaying community, that's a given. And if you even start to say that the current roleplaying community is doing just fine then I will slap you. A good bit of the community will revert back to their kingdoms, as the PKers and whatnot continue to level so that they can spar and call people newbies.

And you're right, I dislike this change. Mainly because I know what this change brought and I know where it's headed. Graal Kingdoms used to have 100 people at a time online because it was highly structured in which no one was really stronger then another. The highest level at the time was 11, you couldn't really pass that unless you used a bug or if you worked your ass off for three days non stop. Now look at it. 30 people on at a time, amazing I say!

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by Zurkiba

Can you read? Or atleast attempt to read what we're talking about? This entire time have you been running around in circles in a dandelion field being oblivious to what the world is saying?

K-mode would not bring a reset, it doesn't alter the current game. All it does is add more options to the game. You ring a bell and this icon appears over your head and then you have equal stats. With those equal stats only others in K-mode can harm you and they are in equal stats also. The items will still be out there, levelling will still be out there, and so on.

Everyone's not going to join the roleplaying community, that's a given. And if you even start to say that the current roleplaying community is doing just fine then I will slap you. A good bit of the community will revert back to their kingdoms, as the PKers and whatnot continue to level so that they can spar and call people newbies.

And you're right, I dislike this change. Mainly because I know what this change brought and I know where it's headed. Graal Kingdoms used to have 100 people at a time online because it was highly structured in which no one was really stronger then another. The highest level at the time was 11, you couldn't really pass that unless you used a bug or if you worked your ass off for three days non stop. Now look at it. 30 people on at a time, amazing I say!

If K-mode was introduced, what would be the point in leveling and items?
Would 'b-mode' still exist? What if we want to kill others not in an RP battle?