Graal dieing

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by protagonist

The thing is, I do know some of what GS2 is about. To say I don't would be wrong

Yeah? What exactly do you know?

Not necessarily; however, tilesets are alot more in-your-face than NPC scripts. The average player doesn't care if an NPC works a little bit faster or slower due to an improvement

This isn't just a matter of improving efficiency, dude.

In doing this, you are depending on people you don't even know to improve the game for you

It seems to be working reasonably well so far. Graal is built on player contributions. While I may not like most of the servers on offer, it's clearly true that many players do.

Not only that, but you can't say that most developers take full advantage of the GS2 engine

I don't think I did. It's not even standard yet, and I'd say that less than half of all scripters have learned to use it. Even if they don't employ all of its functionality, they'll still be able to develop faster simply because GS2 is easier to use and more economical.

Why are you defending yourself with questions?

Hahaha. Oh, the irony.

If you're talking purely to me and don't wish to have any sway on anyone else's opinion, why are we doing this on a public forum?

As opposed to what? We could do it through IMs, but if you're arguing extemporaneously then you're likely to spend even less time thinking about your responses.

If it's not finished yet, then it's not an update yet

For the moment, I'm gonna ignore the fact that you don't seem to know what 'update' means and instead point out how irrelevant that is. Your overall claim is that Stefan's efforts are misplaced. The issue, then, is the worth of the things he's working on - not whether or not he's finished them yet. However you label them, they're still worthwhile projects.

I want actual client-integrated functions

Such as?

I think that it is a horrible mistake to integrate RC into the client and to integrate many client features into scripts stored on the RC. It opens the door for exploits or abuse

What kinds of exploits? What kind of abuse?

I haven't seen signs of the purported "multi-layer" level system either (which WOULD have an astounding effect on Graal). What exactly are the improvements they are beta testing?

Wait, are you backtracking now or do you still think that v4 doesn't actually exist?

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Yeah? What exactly do you know?

Modelled after the C language, more efficient as a result: more capabilities for data storage. GUI capabilities.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

This isn't just a matter of improving efficiency, dude.

No, but some of the functions which are implemented can be already emulated by existing functions.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

It seems to be working reasonably well so far. Graal is built on player contributions. While I may not like most of the servers on offer, it's clearly true that many players do.

Are you saying that, out of all the potential gamers for Graal, the current number of players is impressive?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I don't think I did. It's not even standard yet, and I'd say that less than half of all scripters have learned to use it. Even if they don't employ all of its functionality, they'll still be able to develop faster simply because GS2 is easier to use and more economical.

I didn't say you said that, I said you can't say that. And what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Hahaha. Oh, the irony.

I wasn't defending myself with a question, I was posing a question to you.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

As opposed to what? We could do it through IMs, but if you're arguing extemporaneously then you're likely to spend even less time thinking about your responses.

Here we go again. More of the cookie-cutter, arrogant, snob-appeal attitude. Dude, I'm knocking everything you say down. Don't pretend you're winning this pissing contest.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

For the moment, I'm gonna ignore the fact that you don't seem to know what 'update' means and instead point out how irrelevant that is. Your overall claim is that Stefan's efforts are misplaced. The issue, then, is the worth of the things he's working on - not whether or not he's finished them yet. However you label them, they're still worthwhile projects.

An update in the sense that I'm using it is an addition/tweak/fix to the Graal client or engine. And anyway, I don't consider an update an update until it's complete. There's no such thing in my book as a 1/2 update.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Such as?

As I said before. Global messaging/PM/chat system and a global friends list to name a couple.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

What kinds of exploits? What kind of abuse?

A scripter could easily disable a server and delete alot of hard work, and also do alot more damage if the RC, PMs, and playerlist are all scripts.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Wait, are you backtracking now or do you still think that v4 doesn't actually exist?

I never claimed it didn't exist. There are lots of rumors of what it is, but there has been no actual description of it.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by protagonist

A scripter could easily disable a server and delete alot of hard work, and also do alot more damage if the RC, PMs, and playerlist are all scripts.

Think about what you're saying. Are you seriously going to play a playerworld where all of the scripts have been deleted even in the GS1 system? I mean, after you've milked the "ZOMG" factor out of it.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Modelled after the C language, more efficient as a result

No. Laughable. Overall, GS1 was closer to C than GS2 is - and resemblence to a completely unrelated programming language does not determine efficiency

more capabilities for data storage

'Capabilities'? Only in the very loosest sense.

No, but some of the functions which are implemented can be already emulated by existing functions

Like what?

Are you saying that, out of all the potential gamers for Graal, the current number of players is impressive?

Can you show that editing the tileset would bring in throngs of new players?

what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?

Ugh. The sheer stupidity. What if Thompson and Ritchie had said "What's the point of designing C if nobody knows how to use it yet"?

I wasn't defending myself with a question, I was posing a question to you

The question to which you took offense was "you're 'quitting', right?" I wasn't defending myself with this question, I was posing a question to you.

All of those is immaterial, of course, since you haven't shown why ending a sentence with a '?' automatically invalidates the point it makes.

Here we go again. More of the cookie-cutter, arrogant, snob-appeal attitude. Dude, I'm knocking everything you say down

Haha, do you never proofread? How can you possibly call me arrogant in the first sentence and then have the gall to write the second? It's blatant, hilarious hypocrisy.

I don't consider an update an update until it's complete. There's no such thing in my book as a 1/2 update

That's fascinating, but wholly irrelevant. Please try to use words to mean what they actually mean.

As I said before. Global messaging/PM/chat system and a global friends list to name a couple

As far as I'm aware, those are all features in v4.

A scripter could easily disable a server and delete alot of hard work, and also do alot more damage if the RC, PMs, and playerlist are all scripts

So we're envisioning an everything-deleted situation here? How much of an average playerworld's lifespan does that represent? How many people actually try to play the game during those blackouts? Do you really think it's worth limiting the game's flexibility just so that it will remain 10% playable in those specific circumstances, as opposed to 5%?

Also, "DELETE EVERYTHING RAR" does not count as an "exploit".

I never claimed it didn't exist

"Graal4 is simply rumors"

At the very least, you implied that it doesn't have any real features.

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

No. Laughable. Overall, GS1 was closer to C than GS2 is - and resemblence to a completely unrelated programming language does not determine efficiency

Ok, so I guess I don't know about those aspects. You still haven't proven me wrong in that I don't know some.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

'Capabilities'? Only in the very loosest sense.

^

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Like what?

I'm glad you asked. Showtext versus showimg, for example.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Can you show that editing the tileset would bring in throngs of new players?

It would help. Aesthetics are important to people; that's why there is a market for video cards.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Ugh. The sheer stupidity. What if Thompson and Ritchie had said "What's the point of designing C if nobody knows how to use it yet"?

False analogy. Right now, there is enough of a scripting language on Graal to work. Right now, aesthetics should be worked on to encourage people to play. We're not talking about the creation of a new script engine, as it is already in existence. Give people a chance to catch up.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

The question to which you took offense was "you're 'quitting', right?" I wasn't defending myself with this question, I was posing a question to you.

You asked me what the point was. Rather than giving an answer, you try to shift the answering on to me. If you aren't doing this for the publication of your opinions, why are you doing it?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

All of those is] immaterial, of course, since you haven't shown why ending a sentence with a '?' automatically invalidates the point it makes.

You're defending yourself with a question. Rather than answering a question, you try to shift the answering to your opponent. Shady and ineffective.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Haha, do you never proofread? How can you possibly call me arrogant in the first sentence and then have the gall to write the second? It's blatant, hilarious hypocrisy.

I'm telling you that I'm knocking down the things you are saying, even though you seem to worship them. You're not nearly as clever as you think you are.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

That's fascinating, but wholly irrelevant. Please try to use words to mean what they actually mean.

Updates are updates, man. An update to a system is an update to a system. The system is brought up to date, changed to a more advanced version of itself. If the system is not changed, it is not upated. Please try to think about the multiple possibilities of the meanings of words, instead of either/or-ing.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

As far as I'm aware, those are all features in v4.

Rumors. Until I actually see proof.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So we're envisioning an everything-deleted situation here? How much of an average playerworld's lifespan does that represent? How many people actually try to play the game during those blackouts? Do you really think it's worth limiting the game's flexibility just so that it will remain 10% playable in those specific circumstances, as opposed to 5%?

The overall damage can be more significant.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Also, "DELETE EVERYTHING RAR" does not count as an "exploit".

I'm sure an exploit is possible.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

"Graal4 is simply rumors"

At the very least, you implied that it doesn't have any real features.

That's correct. It doesn't have real features until the public can actually observe them. Until there is aesthetic proof, all you have is hearsay by people who might just be trying to sound important.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Ok, so I guess I don't know about those aspects. You still haven't proven me wrong in that I don't know some

I already explained that the burden of proof is on you. You've already displayed a fair amount of ignorance here, and there's no reason to believe that you would have the knowledge you claim. Most people don't.

I'm glad you asked. Showtext versus showimg, for example

You think it took a lot of effort to make such a tiny semantic modification? You just keep on proving how little you know.

It would help. Aesthetics are important to people

Sure, but there's a limit to how much you can change the tileset without completely altering Graal's style. Besides:
1) Zone and GK are currently Graal's flagships, and they don't even use a classic tileset.
2) Stefan doesn't make tilesets. He has some graphical ability, but he's primarily a coder. What do you expect him to do?

False analogy. Right now, there is enough of a scripting language on Graal to work

You're changing the subject. Your question was this: "what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?"

The basis of your point was that few people know how to use GS2. Now you're running back - as you always do - to another issue entirely. Can't you ever admit that you were wrong?

You asked me what the point was. Rather than giving an answer, you try to shift the answering on to me

You accused me of doing something. I explained that you were deeply confused, asking why I would even want to do that thing. At what point did I break an unwritten rule? You haven't given any evidence to support your accusation, so what am I supposed to be refuting? By questioning you, I demonstrate that your claims are unfounded.

You're defending yourself with a question. Rather than answering a question, you try to shift the answering to your opponent

What question didn't I answer?

I'm telling you that I'm knocking down the things you are saying

Yes. Directly after calling me arrogant, you go ahead and prove that you are a conceited, hypocritical idiot.

Updates are updates, man. An update to a system is an update to a system

An astonishing feat of logic. Perhaps you could go on to show that an improvement to a client is not actually an update?

Rumors. Until I actually see proof

Haha, only you would try to use your own ignorance as an point in debate.

The overall damage can be more significant

That doesn't answer my question. Again: Is it worth sacrificing gameplay just so that the server is slightly more playable in those rare times when the entire server has been deleted?

I'm sure an exploit is possible

Ah, well, that changes everything! After all, who needs reasoning and evidence when you have blind faith?

That's correct. It doesn't have real features until the public can actually observe them

So things are only real when they've been observed by a majority of people? I wonder what your imaginary friend would say to that.

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I already explained that the burden of proof is on you. You've already displayed a fair amount of ignorance here, and there's no reason to believe that you would have the knowledge you claim. Most people don't.

I started playing with a GUI function on Babylon awhile ago(don't know if it is still there). It opened and closed. I know that it makes GUIs alot easier.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

You think it took a lot of effort to make such a tiny semantic modification? You just keep on proving how little you know.

It doesn't matter. An update is an update, and would it really take alot of effort to implement a few handy things? I'd personally like something to view a player's head name or sword/shield name. Also, I think there should be a better system for setting a head/sword/body/shield, perhaps a built-in character editor (with a filebrowser for the data folders). Alot of newbs don't know about sethead.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Sure, but there's a limit to how much you can change the tileset without completely altering Graal's style. Besides:
1) Zone and GK are currently Graal's flagships, and they don't even use a classic tileset.

They are flagships, but they don't represent the reason Graal is charming. Graal isn't charming because it's an aesthetic monster, it's charming because it looks classical. They should have gone for that, rather than all this RP mumbo jumbo. That having been said, there needs to be more functionality to the actual client, so that it is more user-friendly and useful instead of relying on the playerworlds to bring enhancements up to par.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

2) Stefan doesn't make tilesets. He has some graphical ability, but he's primarily a coder. What do you expect him to do?

I don't expect him to do anything. It is he and Unix's business. I don't care if they do anything.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

You're changing the subject. Your question was this: "what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?"

A ton of new features, not a ton of features. Obviously they need to have an extensive language to start with for it to be worthwhile, but why do they keep adding when other parts of Graal would be advantageous to improve?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

The basis of your point was that few people know how to use GS2. Now you're running back - as you always do - to another issue entirely. Can't you ever admit that you were wrong?

You're purpotrating the most common fallacy alive: inventing reality. The basis of my point is that few people need to use GS2 and that as a result, more attention which is normally given to GS2 should be given to aesthetics instead. Stop strawmanning.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

You accused me of doing something. I explained that you were deeply confused, asking why I would even want to do that thing. At what point did I break an unwritten rule? You haven't given any evidence to support your accusation, so what am I supposed to be refuting? By questioning you, I demonstrate that your claims are unfounded.

You're being a red herring. My quitting has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

What question didn't I answer?

Why are you doing this in a public view if you are just trying to influence my opinion?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Yes. Directly after calling me arrogant, you go ahead and prove that you are a conceited, hypocritical idiot.

Dude, the entire premise I'm basing my argument about your arrogance around is that you fail to see that I am shredding your arguments. It's not arrogant to point out a fact and then call it arrogance when you try to put forth as though you are winning. No matter how much you cover your ears, stamp your feet, and repeat "I'M WINNING", you still haven't delivered any impressive blows.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

An astonishing feat of logic. Perhaps you could go on to show that an improvement to a client is not actually an update?

Strawmanning. Quote my whole argument and address it as a whole, or don't address it at all. I can slice up your posts too, and trust me, I'd be far more inventive.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Haha, only you would try to use your own ignorance as an point in debate.

So lets say a few people said that I would be a good manager, waaaay back in that 2k1 mudheap. Would you accept their testimonial as fact? I think your blind acceptance is more ludicrous than my "ignorance".

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

That doesn't answer my question. Again: Is it worth sacrificing gameplay just so that the server is slightly more playable in those rare times when the entire server has been deleted?

We'll just have to see how rare it is. I'm not willing to say that it is going to be rare.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Ah, well, that changes everything! After all, who needs reasoning and evidence when you have blind faith?

You tell me. Your baseless acceptance of rumors should make you qualified to give such a testimonial. Unless of course, someone leaked you a version of v4, in which case somebody is breaking some rules.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So things are only real when they've been observed by a majority of people? I wonder what your imaginary friend would say to that.

Red herring. Stick to the topic or leave.
And as far as Graal/the internet goes? Yeah. I would say so.

[SoSolid66]

It doesn't matter. An update is an update, and would it really take alot of effort to implement a few handy things? I'd personally like something to view a player's head name or sword/shield name. Also, I think there should be a better system for setting a head/sword/body/shield, perhaps a built-in character editor (with a filebrowser for the data folders). Alot of newbs don't know about sethead.

Ew, Hell no

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by protagonist

I started playing with a GUI function on Babylon awhile ago(don't know if it is still there). It opened and closed. I know that it makes GUIs alot easier

Are you trying to undermine your own argument. First you say that GS2 doesn't provide any useful updates, then, when asked to show what you know, you identify a feature and explain how it is useful!

I'd personally like something to view a player's head name or sword/shield name

Cool. Script it. It's not difficult.

They are flagships, but they don't represent the reason Graal is charming

Perhaps not. I don't personally like the design behind GK. Indeed, I think it is a pretty strong argument for letting other people focus on developing worlds while Stefan works on the technology.

I don't expect him to do anything

Stop trying to dodge the question. You say that he should focus on aesthetics, but you're ignoring the fact that most of his talent is in programming.

You're purpotrating the most common fallacy alive: inventing reality. The basis of my point is that few people need to use GS2

Uh, no. Your argument was this: "what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?"

(Not many people know how to use it yet) -> (There is no point)

That's your logic, in all its grotesqueness. You can deny it, but you can't change the post history.

You're being a red herring. My quitting has nothing to do with the debate at hand

I'm "being a red herring"? Fantastic.

You accused me of wanting to sway people's opinions. I pointed out that you're the only one in this conversation and that I don't want to change your opinion (since you claim to be leaving anyway). Now tell me: Was the topic of your accusation relevant to the debate at hand?

Why are you doing this in a public view if you are just trying to influence my opinion?

When did I fail to answer that question? In fact I gave two answers! Firstly I explained that I'm not trying to influence your opinion; I know that you're far too stubborn to actually consider your opponent's arguments and you're supposedly not part of Graal's future in any case. Secondly I told you why I chose to conduct this in a public space: There's no better medium.

Dude, the entire premise I'm basing my argument about your arrogance around is that you fail to see that I am shredding your arguments

Gahaha. No, you're arrogant because you fail to see that I am shredding your arguments!!!!

You see? YOU SEE? If an assertion works equally well for either party, it's a fair bet that it's not very persuasive!

you cover your ears, stamp your feet, and repeat "I'M WINNING"

I do?

"I'm knocking down the things you are saying"
"I am shredding your arguments"

These are your words, not mine! When did I claim to be winning?

Strawmanning. Quote my whole argument and address it as a whole, or don't address it at all

You had an argument? From what I could see, you just stated some semantic tautologies and then asserted that you were right. Again: How is an improvement to a client not actually an update?

We'll just have to see how rare it is

No, we can see right now. We can see that servers don't get hijacked particularly often and that they're restored fairly quickly. We can also see that it usually only happens to those that don't have many players anyway.

So again: How can you possibly advocate limiting gameplay just so that people can PM each other on a server that is temporarily empty?

Red herring. Stick to the topic or leave

I'm completely on topic. I'm demonstrating that, for some reason or another, even you don't operate under the reasoning you describe here. Why is that?

And as far as Graal/the internet goes? Yeah. I would say so.

So did you think the XBox 360 was a hoax before E3? Heck, maybe you still do. After all, most gamers haven't seen it yet. Are you gonna stick to your "If I haven't seen it then it doesn't exist!!" reasoning or are you gonna run back to one of your other points?

[konidias]

*laughs* You don't seem to understand what Kaimetsu is saying. I think this pretty much sums up the entire discussion. You aren't shredding anything. It is TOTALLY arrogant to claim your opinions as facts. You can't just declare yourself the winner. I mean think about that for a moment.

Arrogance...
Declaring yourself the winner...
Arrogance...
Declaring yourself the winner...
Hmm...

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by SoSolid66

Ew, Hell no

Why? Because you want your own special look? New players have a hard time getting head names and so forth; I know that anyone I have ever introduced to Graal has had the primary problem of trying to figure out how to set their body features.

Originally Posted by konidias

*laughs* You don't seem to understand what Kaimetsu is saying. I think this pretty much sums up the entire discussion. You aren't shredding anything. It is TOTALLY arrogant to claim your opinions as facts. You can't just declare yourself the winner. I mean think about that for a moment.

Arrogance...
Declaring yourself the winner...
Arrogance...
Declaring yourself the winner...
Hmm...

Wait, I'm what?
I'm not declaring myself a winner. Where have I done this? I did say that so far anything he has tried to say which criticizes what I'm saying hasn't actually knocked my opinions off track. Also, where am I stating opinions as fact? The only place I can see is where I am making the claim that GS2 is updated at the expense of Graal's user-friendliness and client functionality.

[SoSolid66]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Why? Because you want your own special look?

Yep, anything wrong with that?

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by SoSolid66

Yep, anything wrong with that?

No, but honestly, why should Stefan/Unixmad care if someone copies someone else? The heads are there for everyone to use, not just one person. Making Graal userfriendly is far more beneficial than catering to someone's insecurities.