Graal dieing

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by protagonist

I thought we were to assume the negative if no proof for the positive was given?

No, I said that we were to assume the default. Most non-scripters don't know anything about GS2, and you're most definitely not a scripter. The default assumption is that you're completely ignorant of what it brings, and you've given us no reason to move away from that default.

Where did you learn to read? I didn't say they didn't care about the advances it facilitates

No, your counterargument was that the players "don't even pay attention to GS2 stuff or know about it". That's great, but I never claimed that they do.

The point is that they don't need to be aware of something in order to benefit from it.

Dude, you use snob appeal to make people think they want these updates

I do? When was the last time I mentioned them, outside of this thread? Or are you basing this solely on the fact that I admonished you for speaking about something you don't understand?

You just tried to tell me that I must not understand the updates if I don't think they're so great. The fact is I read the newfeatures

Haha. Congratulations on being literate, but you're not really proving anything. What makes you think everything is in newfeatures? Graal's undergoing an apotheosis at the moment, what with the standardisation of GS2 and the advances in V4. It's a long process, but the end result is that developers will be able to make grander, richer systems than before, and they'll be able to do it twice as quickly.

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

No, I said that we were to assume the default. Most non-scripters don't know anything about GS2, and you're most definitely not a scripter. The default assumption is that you're completely ignorant of what it brings, and you've given us no reason to move away from that default.

Alright, so wouldn't I be the best kind of person to ask about this type of thing? I know nothing about scripting. What I do know is that, currently, NPCs and so forth are good enough for me. I don't need them to be any better. There are functions I want to see that aren't being put in, apparently because all the attention on updates goes to scripting.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

No, your counterargument was that the players "don't even pay attention to GS2 stuff or know about it". That's great, but I never claimed that they do.

The point is that they don't need to be aware of something in order to benefit from it.

How do they benefit? They want something interesting. They want something interesting when the update happens. You're implying that a new GS2 function provides them with it. This is blatantly untrue, as you have to depend on the developers to actually make appropriate use of said function. Neat features built into the client directly are far more gratifying for the average player.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I do? When was the last time I mentioned them, outside of this thread? Or are you basing this solely on the fact that I admonished you for speaking about something you don't understand?

It's snob appeal, no matter how many times you use it or where you use it.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Haha. Congratulations on being literate, but you're not really proving anything. What makes you think everything is in newfeatures?

Total and unadulterated irrelevance. Name an update that the average player would notice that isn't in newfeatures. Most of the "covert" updates are just that: covert. Nobody knows about the updates because said updates don't affect them on a direct and obvious level. Thus, the game appears boring because nothing is updated.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Graal's undergoing an apotheosis at the moment, what with the standardisation of GS2 and the advances in V4. It's a long process, but the end result is that developers will be able to make grander, richer systems than before, and they'll be able to do it twice as quickly.

That's fine, but it's undergoing this apotheosis at the expense of interesting additions that players can actually relate to. Big updates which are far between are dangerous; people can lose interest in the game before a major addition is factored in. A number of smaller tweaks and additions should be factored in so it actually looks like the developer is doing something, rather than one huge update at the end. The way it looks now, we have a dead Graal3 project, GK is dying, and Graal3D/Graal 2001 are completely out of the picture. Graal4 is simply rumors: even though there is a thread in the bugs forum, no screenshots have been released and no actual plans for the version have been specified.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Alright, so wouldn't I be the best kind of person to ask about this type of thing? I know nothing about scripting

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. You denied it a few minutes ago, and now you're using it as the crux of your argument?

What I do know is that, currently, NPCs and so forth are good enough for me. I don't need them to be any better

Mm-hm. And you "need" an updated tileset?

How do they benefit? They want something interesting. They want something interesting when the update happens. You're implying that a new GS2 function provides them with it

No, I'm saying that new functionality allows the developers to make interesting content. That's why we have a scripting language. It lets one person provide many people with the ability to improve the game.

It's snob appeal, no matter how many times you use it or where you use it

I quote: "you use snob appeal to make people think they want these updates". I don't care what weird terms you invent - the fact is that I'm talking purely to you here, and I'm not trying to make you want anything. What would be the point? After all, you're 'quitting', right?

Name an update that the average player would notice that isn't in newfeatures

If it's not in newfeatures yet then it's not finished yet. That doesn't mean it's a waste of time, or that it won't benefit the average player.

That's fine, but it's undergoing this apotheosis at the expense of interesting additions that players can actually relate to

No, that's exactly why it's changing; to provide more of those things.

It amazes me that you continue this argument without even knowing what GS2 can do. What kind of "interesting additions" do you want?

Graal4 is simply rumors

Gahahahahaha. Tell that to the beta testers

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. You denied it a few minutes ago, and now you're using it as the crux of your argument?

The thing is, I do know some of what GS2 is about. To say I don't would be wrong. I will concede I'm not a scripter, though, and probably don't appreciate the updates as much as a scripter might. Therefore, I can relate to the average player.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Mm-hm. And you "need" an updated tileset?

Not necessarily; however, tilesets are alot more in-your-face than NPC scripts. The average player doesn't care if an NPC works a little bit faster or slower due to an improvement. They do care if there are glaring tile errors.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

No, I'm saying that new functionality allows the developers to make interesting content. That's why we have a scripting language. It lets one person provide many people with the ability to improve the game.

In doing this, you are depending on people you don't even know to improve the game for you. Not only that, but you can't say that most developers take full advantage of the GS2 engine, nor can you say that the "interesting content" replaces the need for more client software updates.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I quote: "you use snob appeal to make people think they want these updates". I don't care what weird terms you invent - the fact is that I'm talking purely to you here, and I'm not trying to make you want anything. What would be the point? After all, you're 'quitting', right?

Why are you defending yourself with questions? Maybe its an integrated part of your argument style, but it is also ineffective. If you're talking purely to me and don't wish to have any sway on anyone else's opinion, why are we doing this on a public forum?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

If it's not in newfeatures yet then it's not finished yet. That doesn't mean it's a waste of time, or that it won't benefit the average player.

If it's not finished yet, then it's not an update yet.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

No, that's exactly why it's changing; to provide more of those things.

It amazes me that you continue this argument without even knowing what GS2 can do. What kind of "interesting additions" do you want?

I want actual client-integrated functions. I think that it is a horrible mistake to integrate RC into the client and to integrate many client features into scripts stored on the RC. It opens the door for exploits or abuse.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Gahahahahaha. Tell that to the beta testers

I haven't seen signs of the purported "multi-layer" level system either (which WOULD have an astounding effect on Graal). What exactly are the improvements they are beta testing?



(EDIT: Removed the links, some people might not appreciate the wit)

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by protagonist

The thing is, I do know some of what GS2 is about. To say I don't would be wrong

Yeah? What exactly do you know?

Not necessarily; however, tilesets are alot more in-your-face than NPC scripts. The average player doesn't care if an NPC works a little bit faster or slower due to an improvement

This isn't just a matter of improving efficiency, dude.

In doing this, you are depending on people you don't even know to improve the game for you

It seems to be working reasonably well so far. Graal is built on player contributions. While I may not like most of the servers on offer, it's clearly true that many players do.

Not only that, but you can't say that most developers take full advantage of the GS2 engine

I don't think I did. It's not even standard yet, and I'd say that less than half of all scripters have learned to use it. Even if they don't employ all of its functionality, they'll still be able to develop faster simply because GS2 is easier to use and more economical.

Why are you defending yourself with questions?

Hahaha. Oh, the irony.

If you're talking purely to me and don't wish to have any sway on anyone else's opinion, why are we doing this on a public forum?

As opposed to what? We could do it through IMs, but if you're arguing extemporaneously then you're likely to spend even less time thinking about your responses.

If it's not finished yet, then it's not an update yet

For the moment, I'm gonna ignore the fact that you don't seem to know what 'update' means and instead point out how irrelevant that is. Your overall claim is that Stefan's efforts are misplaced. The issue, then, is the worth of the things he's working on - not whether or not he's finished them yet. However you label them, they're still worthwhile projects.

I want actual client-integrated functions

Such as?

I think that it is a horrible mistake to integrate RC into the client and to integrate many client features into scripts stored on the RC. It opens the door for exploits or abuse

What kinds of exploits? What kind of abuse?

I haven't seen signs of the purported "multi-layer" level system either (which WOULD have an astounding effect on Graal). What exactly are the improvements they are beta testing?

Wait, are you backtracking now or do you still think that v4 doesn't actually exist?

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Yeah? What exactly do you know?

Modelled after the C language, more efficient as a result: more capabilities for data storage. GUI capabilities.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

This isn't just a matter of improving efficiency, dude.

No, but some of the functions which are implemented can be already emulated by existing functions.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

It seems to be working reasonably well so far. Graal is built on player contributions. While I may not like most of the servers on offer, it's clearly true that many players do.

Are you saying that, out of all the potential gamers for Graal, the current number of players is impressive?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I don't think I did. It's not even standard yet, and I'd say that less than half of all scripters have learned to use it. Even if they don't employ all of its functionality, they'll still be able to develop faster simply because GS2 is easier to use and more economical.

I didn't say you said that, I said you can't say that. And what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Hahaha. Oh, the irony.

I wasn't defending myself with a question, I was posing a question to you.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

As opposed to what? We could do it through IMs, but if you're arguing extemporaneously then you're likely to spend even less time thinking about your responses.

Here we go again. More of the cookie-cutter, arrogant, snob-appeal attitude. Dude, I'm knocking everything you say down. Don't pretend you're winning this pissing contest.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

For the moment, I'm gonna ignore the fact that you don't seem to know what 'update' means and instead point out how irrelevant that is. Your overall claim is that Stefan's efforts are misplaced. The issue, then, is the worth of the things he's working on - not whether or not he's finished them yet. However you label them, they're still worthwhile projects.

An update in the sense that I'm using it is an addition/tweak/fix to the Graal client or engine. And anyway, I don't consider an update an update until it's complete. There's no such thing in my book as a 1/2 update.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Such as?

As I said before. Global messaging/PM/chat system and a global friends list to name a couple.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

What kinds of exploits? What kind of abuse?

A scripter could easily disable a server and delete alot of hard work, and also do alot more damage if the RC, PMs, and playerlist are all scripts.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Wait, are you backtracking now or do you still think that v4 doesn't actually exist?

I never claimed it didn't exist. There are lots of rumors of what it is, but there has been no actual description of it.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by protagonist

A scripter could easily disable a server and delete alot of hard work, and also do alot more damage if the RC, PMs, and playerlist are all scripts.

Think about what you're saying. Are you seriously going to play a playerworld where all of the scripts have been deleted even in the GS1 system? I mean, after you've milked the "ZOMG" factor out of it.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by protagonist

Modelled after the C language, more efficient as a result

No. Laughable. Overall, GS1 was closer to C than GS2 is - and resemblence to a completely unrelated programming language does not determine efficiency

more capabilities for data storage

'Capabilities'? Only in the very loosest sense.

No, but some of the functions which are implemented can be already emulated by existing functions

Like what?

Are you saying that, out of all the potential gamers for Graal, the current number of players is impressive?

Can you show that editing the tileset would bring in throngs of new players?

what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?

Ugh. The sheer stupidity. What if Thompson and Ritchie had said "What's the point of designing C if nobody knows how to use it yet"?

I wasn't defending myself with a question, I was posing a question to you

The question to which you took offense was "you're 'quitting', right?" I wasn't defending myself with this question, I was posing a question to you.

All of those is immaterial, of course, since you haven't shown why ending a sentence with a '?' automatically invalidates the point it makes.

Here we go again. More of the cookie-cutter, arrogant, snob-appeal attitude. Dude, I'm knocking everything you say down

Haha, do you never proofread? How can you possibly call me arrogant in the first sentence and then have the gall to write the second? It's blatant, hilarious hypocrisy.

I don't consider an update an update until it's complete. There's no such thing in my book as a 1/2 update

That's fascinating, but wholly irrelevant. Please try to use words to mean what they actually mean.

As I said before. Global messaging/PM/chat system and a global friends list to name a couple

As far as I'm aware, those are all features in v4.

A scripter could easily disable a server and delete alot of hard work, and also do alot more damage if the RC, PMs, and playerlist are all scripts

So we're envisioning an everything-deleted situation here? How much of an average playerworld's lifespan does that represent? How many people actually try to play the game during those blackouts? Do you really think it's worth limiting the game's flexibility just so that it will remain 10% playable in those specific circumstances, as opposed to 5%?

Also, "DELETE EVERYTHING RAR" does not count as an "exploit".

I never claimed it didn't exist

"Graal4 is simply rumors"

At the very least, you implied that it doesn't have any real features.