GS1 VS GS2 (Split from Domination thread)

[falco10291029]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Not if the situation actually calls for such comparisons.

And, in addition, not if the statement of superiority doesn't imply any particularly elite state. If you were to claim that you were more intelligent than a cat, for example, I would not call it a symptom of pride; it is simply a true statement.

No, the definition doesn't change just because you want it to. Afraid the english langauge doesn't work like that. Arrogance is not reliant at all on truth. As for the cat thing, most people are able to tell the difference between a factual claim and arrogance.

It's not perfect, but would accepting your claims be a more reliable method?

The best method is to not form an opinion or at least not live by it.

Would that not justify pretty much any mistake? Like confusing 'your' with 'you're'? What if they prefer an incorrect version? Why do you prefer to make that particular error?

Because it isn't really acceptable in common usage.

Untrue. If you intend to make such accusations in the future, please come equipped with a suitable quote.

I'm sure anyone who has seen most of your arguments already know, so I care not if i prove it to you

Anyway, I ignored your point partly because I had difficulty deciphering it and partly because it didn't appear to say anything relevant to the debate. Now you are ignoring mine. Why?

My point was that a phrase's meaning sometimes has nothing to do with the individual words.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by falco10291029

Arrogance is not reliant at all on truth

If a person accurately claims to be superior to another, it may simply be an on-topic, factual statement.
If a person falsely claims to be superior to another, it is indicative of pride (undue in this case), and can be an example of arrogance.

See how the truth value of the claim can modify the applicability of the label?

most people are able to tell the difference between a factual claim and arrogance

Can you provide a universal method or is it just a matter of 'whatever falco thinks is right'?

The best method is to not form an opinion or at least not live by it

How is that better? And do you never act on provisional assumptions/beliefs?

Because it isn't really acceptable in common usage

Haha. What? The correct version isn't acceptable? I have never been challenged for using it.

I'm sure anyone who has seen most of your arguments already know

They already know the contents of a private conversation?

My point was that a phrase's meaning sometimes has nothing to do with the individual words.

Yeah. And it's utterly irrelevant. If you use 'of' to contrast a 'your', you are implicitly using it to speak of possession. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

[falco10291029]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

If a person accurately claims to be superior to another, it may simply be an on-topic, factual statement.
If a person falsely claims to be superior to another, it is indicative of pride (undue in this case), and can be an example of arrogance.

See how the truth value of the claim can modify the applicability of the label?

Yes, it could, but in your case, it was obviously arrogance. Just because something is true (and we'll assume yours was just for this point) does not necessarily mean it can't be arrogance. In your case, I think that the arrogance was fairly obvious.

Can you provide a universal method or is it just a matter of 'whatever falco thinks is right'?

Neither, Most people can tell which is which. There are certain things that measure whether it is or isn't, which I do not wish to get into.

How is that better? And do you never act on provisional assumptions/beliefs?

It's better because there is no risk of false belief. I'm not saying I never do, I'm saying that it's the best method not to.

Haha. What? The correct version isn't acceptable? I have never been challenged for using it.

no...I mean in the your you're case, in which they prefer the incorrect one...

They already know the contents of a private conversation?

Private? You state it in every other agument! Plus you HAVE said in private AIM sessions that it is (I was arguing whther not responding to a whole post was the same as that which you called bad arguing; ignoring certain points)

[/quote]
Yeah. And it's utterly irrelevant. If you use 'of' to contrast a 'your', you are implicitly using it to speak of possession. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]I suppose this matter isn't important, and i can see that your stubborness blinds you from the truth here. Even when you are wrong, you defend it with "No, it isn't" until death, i swear.....

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by falco10291029

Yes, it could, but in your case, it was obviously arrogance. Just because something is true (and we'll assume yours was just for this point) does not necessarily mean it can't be arrogance

Nor did I claim otherwise. However, the context actually demanded a comparison, and it is not arrogant to comply.

I think that the arrogance was fairly obvious

Do you have any actual arguments, or are you just gonna keep telling me what you think?

There are certain things that measure whether it is or isn't, which I do not wish to get into

I think this answers my question.

It's better because there is no risk of false belief

So? Tell me, what is the purpose of beliefs/working assumptions? And can you show that they don't meet this purpose?

I'm not saying I never do

Why do you do it if you think it is sub-optimal?

no...I mean in the your you're case, in which they prefer the incorrect one...

Okay. But I asked you a different question: Why do you prefer to use 'was' at inappropriate times?

Private? You state it in every other agument!

Then I cannot see why it would be so difficult to find a single example.

Plus you HAVE said in private AIM sessions that it is (I was arguing whther not responding to a whole post was the same as that which you called bad arguing; ignoring certain points)

Then provide a quote. It is possible that I have said something similar, but your mind has warped it to fit the circumstance.

I suppose this matter isn't important, and i can see that your stubborness blinds you from the truth here

Once more, empty assertions. They don't win you anything, dude. Anybody can scream about how "EVERYBODY ELSE IS DUMB, ONLY I CAN SEE TEH TRUTH", but it doesn't tend to be persuasive.

[falco10291029]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Nor did I claim otherwise. However, the context actually demanded a comparison, and it is not arrogant to comply.

But you did so in an arrogant way

Do you have any actual arguments, or are you just gonna keep telling me what you think?

Do you have any actual arguments, or are you going to keep asking me stupid questions about additional comments added that have nothing to do with the argument?

I think this answers my question.

The answer is neither. If you didn't get that (and I know you didn't) it shows even further the bias you put into your arguments. I made no indication that I made any of this up, and quite frankly there are things that everyone takes into consideration when judging for arrogance.

So? Tell me, what is the purpose of beliefs/working assumptions? And can you show that they don't meet this purpose?

They cause falsely lead biases towards someone, which as yo have shown greatly flaw your arguments because of a mindset that you cannot lose against such a person. This causes stubborness and uncertainty in your arguments along with the famed "No I;m right, you are wrong".

Why do you do it if you think it is sub-optimal?

I try not to, and I do let it influence me less than most people do. However in extreme cases i am unable to help myself.

Okay. But I asked you a different question: Why do you prefer to use 'was' at inappropriate times?

I like the sound better, simple as that.

Then I cannot see why it would be so difficult to find a single example.

Because I don't wish to look for it. Your arguments usdualyl encompass many pages and it is usually one post in there. I don't wish to root through them to satisfy you.

Then provide a quote. It is possible that I have said something similar, but your mind has warped it to fit the circumstance.

I can't provide an exact quote, but the conversation went something like:

me: he ignored the post, isn't that bad arguing skills according to you?

you: No, ignoring individual responses is a bad argument skill. Ignoring a post may be due to tiring of that argument.

Once more, empty assertions. They don't win you anything, dude. Anybody can scream about how "EVERYBODY ELSE IS DUMB, ONLY I CAN SEE TEH TRUTH", but it doesn't tend to be persuasive.

Before saying something like this, quit doing the same thing yourself. Hypocrite....

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by falco10291029

But you did so in an arrogant way

NO, U DID.

Seriously, man. It gets boring after a while.

Do you have any actual arguments, or are you going to keep asking me stupid questions about additional comments

Haha. Dude, if you try to make some kind of point and it doesn't happen to be admissable, I'm gonna say so. Solution: Don't make 'points' that're just statements of opinion.

I made no indication that I made any of this up, and quite frankly there are things that everyone takes into consideration when judging for arrogance

Perhaps so. But you haven't shown that they would incriminate me any more than you. All you've done is repeatedly state your opinion.

They cause falsely lead biases towards someone

No, I asked for their purpose. That is not their purpose.

as yo have shown greatly flaw your arguments because of a mindset that you cannot lose against such a person. This causes stubborness and uncertainty in your arguments along with the famed "No I;m right, you are wrong"

Gahaha.

Am I stubborn because I think you're wrong? Then why doesn't the same apply to you?
What uncertainty in my arguments?
And dude, you cannot make accusations like that after saying "your stubborness blinds you from the truth". You think you're right, I think I'm right. What's the difference? Stop being so hypocritical.

I try not to, and I do let it influence me less than most people do. However in extreme cases i am unable to help myself

"extreme cases", huh? Are these rare, then?

The reality is that nobody can function as a normal human being without belief. You need to believe that the sun will rise, that gravity will keep us glued to the floor, that speeding cars can hurt us. We believe these things because, assuming certain axioms, they conform to our experiences and increase our chances of acting in an efficient manner.

Your arguments are essentially that we should ignore everything that we see or learn. Perhaps this explains quite a lot.

I like the sound better, simple as that

Mm-hm. Would you accept that excuse, if you were in my situation? I mean, it's basically universally applicable. At what point do you conclude that the person is lying?

Because I don't wish to look for it. Your arguments usdualyl encompass many pages and it is usually one post in there. I don't wish to root through them to satisfy you

Well, it's not just to satisfy me. It's to turn your post from an empty accusation into a valid point.

I can't provide an exact quote, but the conversation went something like:

me: he ignored the post, isn't that bad arguing skills according to you?
you: No, ignoring individual responses is a bad argument skill. Ignoring a post may be due to tiring of that argument

As I recall, it went like this:

me: Hey Falco, why do you always accuse people of saying stupid things on the forums?
you: BC I CANT THIKN OF NE GOOD POINTS

I WIN!

Before saying something like this, quit doing the same thing yourself. Hypocrite....

Before saying something like this, show that your opponent is actually doing it.

[Soul-Blade]

Falco, just to let you know (as I am a neutral bystander), your arguements are flawed and anything you have said countering Kaimetsu has been idiotic. I would advise stopping all activites conflicting with Kaimetsu. You will end up in a state of illusion, thinking you won the debate. You haven't won. You make yourself look like a *****. Once again I advise you to cease this activity, admit defeat, and learn.

[falco10291029]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

NO, U DID.

Seriously, man. It gets boring after a while.

Yes, your hypocricy does.

Haha. Dude, if you try to make some kind of point and it doesn't happen to be admissable, I'm gonna say so. Solution: Don't make 'points' that're just statements of opinion.

I see no harm in adding something small like that, as long as it isn't in place of an actual argument.

Perhaps so. But you haven't shown that they would incriminate me any more than you. All you've done is repeatedly state your opinion.

I;m relying on other to judge based on their experience.

No, I asked for their purpose. That is not their purpose.

Human want for a judgemental basis, and they serve that purpose, but with bad side effects.

Gahaha.

Am I stubborn because I think you're wrong?

No, you are stubborn because you ignore proofs, when that is all you look for to begin with.

Then why doesn't the same apply to you?

You have yet to show any proof of any of your points.

What uncertainty in my arguments?

Even if I showed something, you'd deny it.

And dude, you cannot make accusations like that after saying "your stubborness blinds you from the truth". You think you're right, I think I'm right. What's the difference? Stop being so hypocritical.

The WAY you think you're right. And being hypocritical about being a hypocrite is the worst case of hypocricy there is.

"extreme cases", huh? Are these rare, then?

The reality is that nobody can function as a normal human being without belief. You need to believe that the sun will rise, that gravity will keep us glued to the floor, that speeding cars can hurt us. We believe these things because, assuming certain axioms, they conform to our experiences and increase our chances of acting in an efficient manner.

Your arguments are essentially that we should ignore everything that we see or learn. Perhaps this explains quite a lot.

Basically you are an extreme case, so any time I argue with you it happens, at least when you argue as you usually do. Anyone can function without belief. I DON'T believe that you will never change, I DON'T believe that you are much smarter than me, and I DON'T believe that gravity will keep me on the floor (government satellites are working to destroy gravity as we speak...erm...type). I don't work on assumptions (usually), I work on experience, then apply that to possibility of something happening. Much better working than assumtions.

Mm-hm. Would you accept that excuse, if you were in my situation? I mean, it's basically universally applicable. At what point do you conclude that the person is lying?

I would accept it if it's commonly accepted in grammar. No need to apply strict grammar rules to everyday speech.

Well, it's not just to satisfy me. It's to turn your post from an empty accusation into a valid point.

Originally Posted by http://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48805&page=4&pp=15&highlight=igno re+points

G_Yoshi! Do not ignore my points!

That shows you at least don't like it, and I've seen many such examples around. I cant find any exact words, but I have seen it before, and I'm sure others have too.

As I recall, it went like this:

me: Hey Falco, why do you always accuse people of saying stupid things on the forums?
you: BC I CANT THIKN OF NE GOOD POINTS

I WIN!

We damn well both know nothing of the sort ever happened, on the other hand, I properly recall the one i posted. I am not saying it is irrefutable evidence, I am saying i remember it.

Before saying something like this, show that your opponent is actually doing it.

Well for one, you shook off the DEFINITION I gave you and said you were right and that what i said, which was backed up by definition, was wrong...

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

Falco, just to let you know (as I am a neutral bystander), your arguements are flawed and anything you have said countering Kaimetsu has been idiotic. I would advise stopping all activites conflicting with Kaimetsu. You will end up in a state of illusion, thinking you won the debate. You haven't won. You make yourself look like a *****. Once again I advise you to cease this activity, admit defeat, and learn.

First of all, Neutral party my ass, second, I'd like to see you do better, and third, ionstead of saying "Your arguments=FLAWED!!!!!!111" give examples and explain how, idiot. You obviously aren't meant to judge someone's argumentive abilities.

[maximus_asinus]

I agree with soul blade, you aren't winning in this debate, your arguements are beyond flawed, I'd suggest keeping quiet, and letting the thread die.

[falco10291029]

Originally Posted by maximus asinus

your arguements are beyond flawed

Show how instead of just being the normal kai follower I'm used to.

[Inspiration]

Originally Posted by falco10291029

Show how instead of just being the normal kai follower I'm used to.

I think more people would enjoy seeing Kai get his ass handed to him in an argument than would like to see him win yet another.


The point is, all you've done is accuse him of things, and then fail to provide any evidence when it is called for.

Whats the point of arguing if you can't prove your point?

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by falco10291029

Yes, your hypocricy does

NO UR STUPIDITY DOES LOL

So very tedious.

I see no harm in adding something small like that, as long as it isn't in place of an actual argument

What if it's an accusation or an insult? You don't need to back those up?

I;m relying on other to judge based on their experience

Okay. Then let them do so, and stop telling them what to think.

Of course, that might not work out for you. Already two people have disagreed with the opinions you assigned to them

Human want for a judgemental basis, and they serve that purpose

Huh? If you're going to invent terms, please define them at the same time. What is a "judgemental basis" in this context?

No, you are stubborn because you ignore proofs, when that is all you look for to begin with
You have yet to show any proof of any of your points.

Could I not equally say the same to you? You've gotta learn to think from more than one angle, hoss.

Even if I showed something, you'd deny it

Which can only be interpreted as a bad thing if you presuppose that you're right. In other words, you can't make that accusation without doing the very thing you attribute to me!

Anyone can function without belief

As a normal human? Hardly. Why would they eat, if they didn't believe that it would help them survive? Why would they do anything at all?

I work on experience

Ah, so you believe/assume that your memory actually describes real events?

I would accept it if it's commonly accepted in grammar

What, people can only prefer something if it's commonly accepted by stupid people?

That shows you at least don't like it

It shows that I objected to G-Yoshi's behaviour in that particular instance. It doesn't show that I think nobody should ever ignore parts of a person's post. For example, a person misinterprets me and writes several paragraphs based on a misconception. Would I be a hypocrite if I wrote only a few lines, clarifying my meaning?

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with ignoring sections of a person's post. It depends on the circumstance. In this instance, I ignored your 'point' because my own paragraph already covered the topic.

We damn well both know nothing of the sort ever happened, on the other hand, I properly recall the one i posted

We damn well both know that exact conversation happened. On the other hand, neither of us recalls the one you posted.

Well for one, you shook off the DEFINITION I gave you

Which?

First of all, Neutral party my ass

What, Soul Blade and I are the best of friends? Presumably you have not seen the last conversation we had.

third, ionstead of saying "Your arguments=FLAWED!!!!!!111" give examples and explain how, idiot

Maybe he should've just said that "your stubborness blinds you from the truth". That's perfectly acceptable, right?

[falco10291029]

NO UR STUPIDITY DOES LOL

So very tedious.

Let's get off this......

What if it's an accusation or an insult? You don't need to back those up?

Do you mean the add-on or the argument? The former, no, the latter is circumstantial.

Okay. Then let them do so, and stop telling them what to think.

Of course, that might not work out for you. Already two people have disagreed with the opinions you assigned to them

I already know of two people who agree with me, but are afraid to mention themselves as to not be ovetaken by the mass kai followers. Of course, this won't be believed, but that is unimportant, ot's not like I need to back up what OTHERS think.

Huh? If you're going to invent terms, please define them at the same time. What is a "judgemental basis" in this context?

Judgmental: Based upon judgement. Basis, a foundation. A foundation based upon judgement, or in better terms, something to base any further judgements on.

Could I not equally say the same to you? You've gotta learn to think from more than one angle, hoss.

I take opinion into context when backed up with evidence (not proof), and when it matters. You NEVER do.

Which can only be interpreted as a bad thing if you presuppose that you're right. In other words, you can't make that accusation without doing the very thing you attribute to me!

So we share similar flaws, mine just not as built upon......

As a normal human? Hardly. Why would they eat, if they didn't believe that it would help them survive? Why would they do anything at all?

Based on my way, looking at how it has helped keep you alive, also the fact that it's been proven, unless an immortal changes it, it would be so, basically, because it's a high probability of helping to survive.

Ah, so you believe/assume that your memory actually describes real events?

THe probability of them being fake is low from what I can tell from experience, so thus I will believe based upon probability that my memory contains actual events.

What, people can only prefer something if it's commonly accepted by stupid people?

I said nothing of the sort, get your facts straight.

It shows that I objected to G-Yoshi's behaviour in that particular instance. It doesn't show that I think nobody should ever ignore parts of a person's post. For example, a person misinterprets me and writes several paragraphs based on a misconception. Would I be a hypocrite if I wrote only a few lines, clarifying my meaning?

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with ignoring sections of a person's post. It depends on the circumstance. In this instance, I ignored your 'point' because my own paragraph already covered the topic.

Fine, though I know you have at least criticized particular instances of doing this.

We damn well both know that exact conversation happened. On the other hand, neither of us recalls the one you posted.

Whatever you say....

Which?

Of arrogance....

What, Soul Blade and I are the best of friends? Presumably you have not seen the last conversation we had.

Nope, nor do I care to.

Maybe he should've just said that "your stubborness blinds you from the truth". That's perfectly acceptable, right?

Yes, that I would have accepted

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by falco10291029

Do you mean the add-on or the argument? The former, no, the latter is circumstantial

I'm talking about this: "I think that the arrogance was fairly obvious". If all you do with your posts is make declarations of your opinion, I think I am justified in asking you to stick to what you can prove.

I already know of two people who agree with me, but are afraid to mention themselves as to not be ovetaken by the mass kai followers

WELL, I KNOW THREE HUNDRED PEOPLE WHO WOULD TOTALLY POST BUT THEY'RE SCARED THAT YOU'LL STEAL THEIR LUNCH MONEY.

I GUESS I WIN. THREE HUNDRED IS CLEARLY A BIGGER NUMBER THAN TWO.

Judgmental: Based upon judgement. Basis, a foundation. A foundation based upon judgement, or in better terms, something to base any further judgements on

So it's a basis based on judgement? Man, that doesn't even make sense. But okay, you've defined it now.

Character assessments are useful for all kinds of reasons. Obviously you agree, or you wouldn't have convinced yourself that I'm some kind of arrogant hypocrite.

I take opinion into context when backed up with evidence (not proof), and when it matters. You NEVER do

Could I not equally say the same to you? Dude, step back and think about this objectively. The whole "I AM RIGHT SO YOU MUST BE STUBBORN" thing just doesn't carry any weight. It requires you to assume that you're right, in which case you're at least as stubborn as I.

Based on my way, looking at how it has helped keep you alive

Which presupposes what I mentioned earlier: That your memories are accurate.

THe probability of them being fake is low from what I can tell from experience

You are using experience to confirm the validity of experience? Have you ever heard of circular logic?

I said nothing of the sort, get your facts straight

Well, the error you made would not be accepted by most intelligent, educated people.

Fine, though I know you have at least criticized particular instances of doing this

And I know that you secretly wish for a flowery pink pony, which you would call 'StarDancePrancer'. Don't deny it! I know it's true.

Of arrogance....

I didn't dismiss your definition. I showed that the truth value of a statement can modify whether it implies what you gave.

Nope, nor do I care to

Because then you wouldn't be able to as easily dismiss his opinion, right? You would need to decide that he just hates everybody whose name starts with an 'F'.

Yes, that I would have accepted

Agreeing with somebody and then appending a is not a particularly strong debating tactic.

[falco10291029]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I'm talking about this: "I think that the arrogance was fairly obvious". If all you do with your posts is make declarations of your opinion, I think I am justified in asking you to stick to what you can prove.

You have yet to prove anything yourself, so i could ask you the same thing.

WELL, I KNOW THREE HUNDRED PEOPLE WHO WOULD TOTALLY POST BUT THEY'RE SCARED THAT YOU'LL STEAL THEIR LUNCH MONEY.

I GUESS I WIN. THREE HUNDRED IS CLEARLY A BIGGER NUMBER THAN TWO.

, that wasn't meant to be responded to. Also, for one asking people to stick with facts especially, I would say that mockery is not a strong debate topic.......

So it's a basis based on judgement? Man, that doesn't even make sense. But okay, you've defined it now.

No, it means something to base your judgement on, what part of that can you not comprehend?!

Character assessments are useful for all kinds of reasons. Obviously you agree, or you wouldn't have convinced yourself that I'm some kind of arrogant hypocrite.

As I said, you're that extreme case I spoke of.

Could I not equally say the same to you? Dude, step back and think about this objectively. The whole "I AM RIGHT SO YOU MUST BE STUBBORN" thing just doesn't carry any weight. It requires you to assume that you're right, in which case you're at least as stubborn as I.

Show one instance in which you have taken someone's opinion into consideration instead of saying "opinion doesn't matter or "prove it".

Which presupposes what I mentioned earlier: That your memories are accurate.

Based on probability, I would think so. Especially when there is evidence of such a memory happening.

You are using experience to confirm the validity of experience? Have you ever heard of circular logic?

Just like you use stupidity to confirm my stupidity

Well, the error you made would not be accepted by most intelligent, educated people.

Maybe english majors, but the nerdiest kid in my school has made the same type of errors before as well (as for you saying claims dont say anything, you are doing the same thing).

And I know that you secretly wish for a flowery pink pony, which you would call 'StarDancePrancer'. Don't deny it! I know it's true.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

I didn't dismiss your definition. I showed that the truth value of a statement can modify whether it implies what you gave.

You criticize one stretching a definition to suit their needs. Why is compressing it to suit your own any better? Besides, arrogance is as arrogance does. If I had gone up to that cat and said "Ha! I am smarter than you!", that is arrogance. However, if I said "I am smarter than a cat", it is a simple comparison not meant to hurt the cat in any way. Arrogance is defined when one is trying to show superiority over an inferior. Truth doesn't matter.

Because then you wouldn't be able to as easily dismiss his opinion, right? You would need to decide that he just hates everybody whose name starts with an 'F'.

No, I would just figure that there is a high chance that he doesn't like me, whether he likes you or not.

Agreeing with somebody and then appending a is not a particularly strong debating tactic.

It seems fine to me, it's meant to say "You are an idiot for asking".