What happened

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

I know you are waiting for him to acknowledge you, and probably offer you some kind of reward - but if it were me I'd just do it, show it off, and let it convince him instead of waiting.

We're always waiting.

I'm sick of waiting.

GO. DO.

But hey, you might not be motivated. I dunno. I couldn't keep people interested in a teamspeak server to collaborate on, because they didn't care about collaborating.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Yea right, the GermanKr3w takes everything at face value. "Oh, you made us a webpage? Fantastic. What - you did it as part of an ongoing relationship with our business? Nonsense, what's that now? You're disgruntled? WE'LL SEE WHO HAS THE LAST LAUGH"

It's nonsense.

Please don't patronize me. Thanks.

[Programmer]

Originally Posted by Stefan

If people say that they don't like the style of the website then it's ok for me, although I don't agree. Many people are stuck to the old, and don't accept new stuff, but that doesn't mean that the old stuff should be kept. It's better to see what is good in the old stuff and then take that and build something new and exciting.

Deleting a thread will only make people complain even more. Of course there are limits.

Stefan, the ages of 99 percent of the players on Graal is at least 14. Most people are even older. Your website doesn't appeal to these teenagers, which doesn't serve any purpose for attracting new players. You're constantly losing players without the incentive to gain new ones.

You have to keep in mind, Stefan, we might not be as old as you are, but we're 7-year-olds. Graal v5 was a major step in the wrong direction, and has seriously screwed up the warm, welcoming feeling of the old Graal website and the trials who just want to play. Just leave them alone and let them purchase on their own time; your prices are quite expensive for a short-term payment.

In your quote, you said "It's better to see what is good in the old stuff and then take that and build something new and exciting." Your website doesn't reflect this belief. The new website barely has any elements of the old website. The old website was very effective and easy to navigate, but your new one is a horrible death-trap for web surfers.

In short, you should reconsider what you're doing to Graal right now. Graal v.4 was perfectly fine. It just needed a little work. With the release of Graal v.5, you screwed up most subscription status and the browsing of the website, which makes it harder to renew your subscription because you can't find the subscriptions page. Graal might have some cool features now, but they don't overshadow the bad qualities of it.

[xXziroXx]

Stephen and Ian summed it up pretty much. You have got to realize, that we're trying to help out and not the opposite. We love Graal, otherwise we wouldn't bother in the first place.

[Darlene159]

I have to agree with the new site being confusing.
I have a hard time locating stuff, and the navigation does confuse me.
I did like the old better than the new, but if they are trying to target a younger playerbase, then the layout would be fine as far as looks, but it would be far too hard for a younger playerbase to navigate.
To us that have been with Graal for a long time, the site in no way reflects Graal, not even the pictures really.

I guess it just depends on what age group they are trying to attract.
I dont see Graal, as it is now, as being a game for a younger crowd at all.

I would really like the site to reflect the game as it is....

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I would really like the site to reflect the game as it is....

As it is now? I wouldn't, haha. I'd rather it reflected what it should be

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Rufus

As it is now? I wouldn't, haha. I'd rather it reflected what it should be

I meant as far as looks. Like Graal characters as they are, and so on....I liked the green, and the banners that had parts of level, and real character screenshots. I would just like the site to have that feel again, and the easy navigation.

How do you know the site doesnt reflect what they want Graal to be? Maybe they dont share your view of the way Graal should be. We have no way of knowing what they are going for because they dont tell us.
I am an oldbie, and I miss the old ways as much as other oldbies, but it's not coming back...

[Admins]

Pages like http://www.graalonline.com/playerworlds/ display graphics from the game. I'm not sure what you mean with easy navigation, the number of menu entries have been reduced drastically.

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Stephen

"Oh, you made us a webpage? Fantastic. What - you did it as part of an ongoing relationship with our business?

So what, you want partner or something?

It's a website, make it to help everybody - if you WANT to.
If you don't want to, for whatever reason, then don't.

But, don't you think it's possible if you made a killer website they would use it once they see it? Even if they did pay (not confirming, just hypothetically) for the current site, don't you think they would use a better one if all they had to do with hand out some Gold time?

I mean, come on, how many games would you even know where to SEND a killer website for their review? I don't know if you're a serious web developer, but a live company site would be a good addition to any portfolio. It's not like this is even a difficult job.

Everybody has a chance to change Graal, and everybody is waiting for everybody else to do it. If I could make websites, I would make one for Graal. I just suck at making websites.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Pages like http://www.graalonline.com/playerworlds/ display graphics from the game. I'm not sure what you mean with easy navigation, the number of menu entries have been reduced drastically.

On a pink background. I think that's all that needs to be said.

Oh, and it's not a matter of numbers, navigation is a *****. I can't find anything on the new site.

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

So what, you want partner or something?

It's a website, make it to help everybody - if you WANT to.
If you don't want to, for whatever reason, then don't.

But, don't you think it's possible if you made a killer website they would use it once they see it? Even if they did pay (not confirming, just hypothetically) for the current site, don't you think they would use a better one if all they had to do with hand out some Gold time?

I mean, come on, how many games would you even know where to SEND a killer website for their review? I don't know if you're a serious web developer, but a live company site would be a good addition to any portfolio. It's not like this is even a difficult job.

Everybody has a chance to change Graal, and everybody is waiting for everybody else to do it. If I could make websites, I would make one for Graal. I just suck at making websites.

Why should Stephen do it just to help? I'm sure they paid someone to make the new site, why should Stephen do it just to help because he's part of the community?

[Programmer]

As I said, I volunteer to redesign the website if need be, just say the word and give me ideas and if I have Stefan/Unixmad's permission, I'll make a new one with better design and navigation.

[Desear]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Why should Stephen do it just to help? I'm sure they paid someone to make the new site, why should Stephen do it just to help because he's part of the community?

Because he wants to help the players? Or the community doesn't matter enough to him, he needs some kind of material reward?

Originally Posted by Programmer

As I said, I volunteer to redesign the website if need be, just say the word and give me ideas and if I have Stefan/Unixmad's permission, I'll make a new one with better design and navigation.

Anyway, I really think the community would appreciate that, I think they mostly agree they want to stick with Graal's Green Color for the homepage, and maybe use one of the old main pages for the site, thats in the first post, just add the new playerworlds, and such. Then post some screen-shots, and see what everyone thinks, heck might even attract their attention.

[Programmer]

Originally Posted by Desear

Anyway, I really think the community would appreciate that, I think they mostly agree they want to stick with Graal's Green Color for the homepage, and maybe use one of the old main pages for the site, thats in the first post, just add the new playerworlds, and such. Then post some screen-shots, and see what everyone thinks, heck might even attract their attention.

I just require access to the FTP / MySQL server for me to create a new website, and knowing Stefan and Unixmad, they won't let me near it -.-'

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Desear

Because he wants to help the players? Or the community doesn't matter enough to him, he needs some kind of material reward?

And? Stefan and Unix shouldn't have to rely on everyone 'just helping the community'. If someone else is getting paid for the same services, it doesn't seem wrong that Stephan ask for compensation as well.

[Desear]

Originally Posted by Programmer

I just require access to the FTP / MySQL server for me to create a new website, and knowing Stefan and Unixmad, they won't let me near it -.-'

I see, thought you were going to do a rough example of what you could make it, with a freewebs service temporarily, then ask for access. Or would that limit you too much?

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

And? Stefan and Unix shouldn't have to rely on everyone 'just helping the community'. If someone else is getting paid for the same services, it doesn't seem wrong that Stephan ask for compensation as well.

Well, then let him ask, I'm saying what does it really amount to, why does he need payment? Because he doesn't really care about just doing it for the community, he thinks he deserves some higher reward then that. Anyway, since Programmer seems to be attempting to do it for free, it doesn't really matter.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Pages like http://www.graalonline.com/playerworlds/ display graphics from the game. I'm not sure what you mean with easy navigation, the number of menu entries have been reduced drastically.

For instance, where are the Graal rules, and the TOS? There should be a link in the drop down menu on the main page, but there isnt.
There should also be clear rules made up for playerworld owners. Things they can or cannot do, and maybe some suggestions on what to do or not to do....and linked on the main page.

To make myself clear, I do really like the way the website is done....it is very well done, but the colors throughout, and graphics on the main page just lack Graal feel to me.
That being said, I'm not going to massively complain about something relatively minor. I will simply get used to it, but I do think rules, and TOS needs to be easily accessible.

[Programmer]

Originally Posted by Desear

I see, thought you were going to do a rough example of what you could make it, with a freewebs service temporarily, then ask for access. Or would that limit you too much?

I cannot code my website on Freewebs due to the lack of PHP and MySQL support. I could create a subdomain of sympgraal.com, but I need to make sure this will actually be used before I do anything :|

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

So what, you want partner or something?

Don't be a clod.

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

But, don't you think it's possible if you made a killer website they would use it once they see it? Even if they did pay (not confirming, just hypothetically) for the current site, don't you think they would use a better one if all they had to do with hand out some Gold time?

They wouldn't pay. But that's not really important - do you know much about webdesign? This wouldn't be easy... you couldn't just make it and give it to them. It would have to interface with a lot of (I assume) PHP & MySQL... or some sort of database language, whatever they're using.

I could make a design but it would be meaningless to them and I'm really not willing to waste my efforts. I put a lot of effort into great ideas and great development when I was younger only to watch it go unused, and I'm no longer willing to do that.

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

I mean, come on, how many games would you even know where to SEND a killer website for their review? I don't know if you're a serious web developer, but a live company site would be a good addition to any portfolio. It's not like this is even a difficult job.

I have a job I intend to keep for a long time, so my portfolio is strictly hobby.

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

Everybody has a chance to change Graal, and everybody is waiting for everybody else to do it. If I could make websites, I would make one for Graal. I just suck at making websites.

I thought you were a PWA?

Originally Posted by HoudiniMan

It's a website, make it to help everybody - if you WANT to.
If you don't want to, for whatever reason, then don't.

I'm not really sure if this is worth commenting on - but wtf, who can't figure that out on their own? lol

[cbk1994]

Stefan, how can you not see how hard the site is to navigate?

No new people will have a clue what Playerworlds or Zone are. The colors look like crap, and your target audience definitely couldn't navigate that. If you want, I'll get a video of my seven year old sister trying?

[kia345]

What was honestly going through you guy's minds, leaving behind these?

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by kia345

What was honestly going through you guy's minds, leaving behind these?

Nothing, obviously.

PS: Taken on a Mac, or with a Mac skin?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

How do you know the site doesnt reflect what they want Graal to be? Maybe they dont share your view of the way Graal should be. We have no way of knowing what they are going for because they dont tell us.
I am an oldbie, and I miss the old ways as much as other oldbies, but it's not coming back...

A while back Twinny and I were on Unholy Nation and Unixmad logged on to explore, or something. This was just after the new website had been released, and he expressed his views on making the game more child-friendly, and we stated Unholy Nation has the most entertaining features for younger players. It was obvious with the new website, and this note that he wanted to make the game more child friendly, that the site is based around this notion. Obviously Graal isn't for that age range though, and I think he realized this, but the site just came out. There was a discussion of how the site isn't matching with the target age range, and he agreed. This is how I "know" the site doesn't reflect what they want "Graal to be".

Stating that you miss the old ways, but have little faith in any kind of progress towards that feel is kind of depressing. Sure, you'll probably not see the old site exactly as it were, but regression of old concepts isn't the same as adapting on top of them. What we're seeing is basically just starting something completely new, but that doesn't mean the site can't have another overhaul to something in the spirit of what the past sites had.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by cbkbud

PS: Taken on a Mac, or with a Mac skin?

Print Screen, Ctrl C, Ctrl V, on Windows


I use the iFox skin with Firefox, I won't deny Macs have some eye candy, but it's easily emulated on Windows.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by kia345

I use the iFox skin with Firefox, I won't deny Macs have some eye candy, but it's easily emulated on Windows.

Mmmk.

The extra comment wasn't needed though.

[DustyPorViva]

Oh, and bright colors aren't even good for targetting children... unless you want 6 year-olds. Children are a lot more mature(not in mentality, but in taste) these days than they were 10 years ago. Children play games like GTA at age 9 in this decade.

[Admins]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Children are a lot more mature(not in mentality, but in taste) these days than they were 10 years ago. Children play games like GTA at age 9 in this decade.

"Lol watch how i cut the throat of this *****"
I don't think GTA is more tasty or mature than games like mario kart or Zelda just because you have gangs, guns and cars. I liked GTA2, but the recent versions were too boring for me. I don't really like the idea of going more GTA style, it's like following the herd. We actually plan to go more "back to the roots" with Graal.

[Inverness]

I don't think Dusty meant to go more GTA style. That was more of an example of the higher maturity level (so he says) of children in this decade. The website does not account for this.

I think nearly all Graal players would associate it with Green and Gold (My highschool's colors 8D) and I think that color scheme needs to be readded to the website, because I certainly liked the old ones better than the current.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Stefan

more tasty or mature than games like mario kart or Zelda

I lust over those two franchises, and even I think that the website's current look is way too childish.

[Programmer]

As I said, I'll redo the site if need be,

does everyone want that?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Stefan

"Lol watch how i cut the throat of this *****"
I don't think GTA is more tasty or mature than games like mario kart or Zelda just because you have gangs, guns and cars. I liked GTA2, but the recent versions were too boring for me. I don't really like the idea of going more GTA style, it's like following the herd. We actually plan to go more "back to the roots" with Graal.

I love Zelda and Mario. Though... look at WW, it got a huge shaft for being childish(even though I loved it). I never suggest going for a more GTA theme, but merely the fact that people want more mature themes and you're going in the opposite direction. The only people bright colors appeal to are very little kids. You're not going to get anyone 13-15 with that site, even if you're hoping to get a more younger audience(remember, according to ToS, you have to be 13 or older to play?... I think.).

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Stating that you miss the old ways, but have little faith in any kind of progress towards that feel is kind of depressing. Sure, you'll probably not see the old site exactly as it were, but regression of old concepts isn't the same as adapting on top of them. What we're seeing is basically just starting something completely new, but that doesn't mean the site can't have another overhaul to something in the spirit of what the past sites had.

The site will only be changed if unixmad wants it changed, am I wrong? Last I knew, he really liked the site, but what do I know, I havent seen him in months. My point is that nothing will be changed because some people complain, it will only be changed if unixmad wants it changed...that's not to say someone cant convince him, but it would have to be a pretty darn good argument.

Originally Posted by Stefan

"Lol watch how i cut the throat of this *****"
I don't think GTA is more tasty or mature than games like mario kart or Zelda just because you have gangs, guns and cars. I liked GTA2, but the recent versions were too boring for me. I don't really like the idea of going more GTA style, it's like following the herd. We actually plan to go more "back to the roots" with Graal.

I would really love to hear what is planned, maybe some of us could help.

[SolidSnake989]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

The site will only be changed if unixmad wants it changed, am I wrong? Last I knew, he really liked the site, but what do I know, I havent seen him in months. My point is that nothing will be changed because some people complain, it will only be changed if unixmad wants it changed...that's not to say someone cant convince him, but it would have to be a pretty darn good argument.

Then most likely, Everyone will leave eventually on their own terms, Graal will slowly die and be a fond memory of what it could of been.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake989

Then most likely, Everyone will leave eventually on their own terms, Graal will slowly die and be a fond memory of what it could of been.

pfft, over a website? I seriously doubt it.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

pfft, over a website? I seriously doubt it.

I think he's referring to the stagnation of development on Graal as a whole. The problem isn't that there isn't management in place to develop or the game mechanics...

In my opinion there's not enough intellectually/creatively mature developers to fully take advantage of the system. That may be a mix of the targeted audience (youth) and uninspiring documentation. I'm not really sure.

I think a lot of the problem is stemmed around volunteer players holding authority/management positions in the actual administration. I really think this is a very bad idea. Would love to see paid employees who can also develop doing that sort of stuff.

That would be pretty expensive, no doubt. But I'm not talking in the immediate future.

[SolidSnake989]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

pfft, over a website? I seriously doubt it.

Alot of things could lead from just a website, For the want of the nail, the horse shoe was lost, For the want of the horse shoe, The steed was lost, For the want of the steed, the message was lost, For the want of a message, The war was lost.

In other terms, No one is going to join and the people that are already in it will leave eventually due to life.

[DustyPorViva]

There have been a lot of changes that the majority of the playerbase disagree with(or at least the forums), and Unix doesn't listen. That's a bad business habit to get into.

[pooper200000]

I think it would make sense to have the site be better organized and easier to use.
Some of my main problems with the website are not being able to find the simple buttons (Create an account, Play now, Upgrade to Gold)
I think a large amount of competitive online games have their site organized in a way that you see things like create an account, play now, or upgrade to gold.
I would like to see the website simplified because I have trouble finding stuff. I think it would be nice if it had something like this:

Obviously the bottom stuff would be cut off when you open the page. Just an idea though Maybe hikaru or someone could give a draft of something a little more... graphically appealing? I was just thinking more of organization. There should probably be a support option on the right side too.

[kia345]

Integrate the support center with the main site/get more "compulsive" checkers.

[DustyPorViva]

The site needs more information. An introduction that states what Graal as a whole is, pages that go into detail about playerworlds, gold worlds, subscriptions and all that. Pages for each of the gold worlds and what they're about.

This separating the website into different sections for each subscription is bad. It creates a lot of duplicate information and also makes it hard to find stuff since the subscriptions don't really do well for catagories. They should go back to the old way of organizing links: by content.

[cbk1994]

Take a look at the attachment I'm posting. It's from another website of a popular MMORPG (names etc blurred out). You can see how it's easy to upgrade, play, create accounts, see information such as parent guides, easy link to forums, etc.

(I hope I blurred it enough?)

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbkbud

Take a look at the attachment I'm posting. It's from another website of a popular MMORPG (names etc blurred out). You can see how it's easy to upgrade, play, create accounts, see information such as parent guides, easy link to forums, etc.

(I hope I blurred it enough?)

Not the best example in the world. That site is pretty awful, to be honest.