Global Development Team?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

While I agree with a number of the things you said, I believe this team does have the potential to do a number of things "the community" can't do.

For one, if it is made up of talented developers, it will have a strong influence on the decisions Stefan makes.
It isn't just about you "having connections with Stefan," it's about making a connection with the community and Stefan.


And yes, while many developers post examples and more in the Code Gallery, something this team could do is release a series of coherent and high-quality packages for servers to use (as discussed in the Scripting Forum's thread); nothing of this sort exists in the Code Gallery.


A strong team brings uniformity and coherency to the table, something that will never come out of a mass of developers releasing content.

Problem with the GPackages idea is that there wouldn't be many packages to make since most systems are server-specific unless the team is out to make full RPG systems, gun systems, classic systems, and all of that sort of thing for every playerworld to just swoop in and start using on their servers where we'll have a hundred servers using the same systems, that doesn't seem like a very good idea and would take away many jobs for the current scripters.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Problem with the GPackages idea is that there wouldn't be many packages to make since most systems are server-specific unless the team is out to make full RPG systems, gun systems, classic systems, and all of that sort of thing for every playerworld to just swoop in and start using on their servers where we'll have a hundred servers using the same systems, that doesn't seem like a very good idea.

What defines a server is rarely ever found in the base systems used; it is defined by plot, gameplay, coherency, and innovation.

Supplying other developers and server admins with these packages could get all the "crud" out of the way and allow them to focus on the more important things that actually define the server.


If you suggest that many servers using the same systems is a bad idea, you probably shouldn't even be developing on Graal, which is in fact a system itself.

The packages won't be mandatory to use, and they won't limit development freedom; someone could still go and develop a new innovative system if required for their server concept.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

What defines a server is rarely ever found in the base systems used; it is defined by plot, gameplay, coherency, and innovation.

Supplying other developers and server admins with these packages could get all the "crud" out of the way and allow them to focus on the more important things that actually define the server.


If you suggest that many servers using the same systems is a bad idea, you probably shouldn't even be developing on Graal, which is in fact a system itself.

The packages won't be mandatory to use, and they won't limit development freedom; someone could still go and develop a new innovative system if required for their server concept.

Trust me, I'm not the one that takes a toll when I stop developing for Graal, so choose your words wisely. The same would apply for all active developers, since we all do this voluntarily and gain nothing out of it except self-satisfaction, so the more you run around telling people not to develop for the game, the more it will die out.

As for the packages, yes, it would defeat the purpose of learning how to script for the newer players and would decrease the need of scripters when managers can just install packages developed by the team and save themselves the trouble of looking for a scripter. It's fine for something like a global tailor or a global guild system, but adding in full systems that would need close to nothing to tweak to get a server running would be a bad idea and there would be too many servers with the same gameplay systems applying for hosted and classic. There's a reason why others get angry when full scripts are posted on the forums when answering player-related questions since those players will just copy-and-paste the script and not bother to learn anything from it.

There is a fine line of systems that would be suitable for the packages and systems that define a server cross that line. Basic core systems are fine, but you're arguing with me when I'm talking about full systems, which leads me to believe that you would want the team to script such systems for everyone to use which would be a massive mistake.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Trust me, I'm not the one that takes a toll when I stop developing for Graal, so choose your words wisely. The same would apply for all active developers, since we all do this voluntarily and gain nothing out of it except self-satisfaction, so the more you run around telling people not to develop for the game, the more it will die out.

You took that way too literally. It was not a shot at you or anyone else.
My point was that if you think nothing innovative can come out of something based on top of a system, you should take a look at Graal itself.

Originally Posted by Gambet

As for the packages, yes, it would defeat the purpose of learning how to script for the newer players and would decrease the need of scripters when managers can just install packages developed by the team and save themselves the trouble of looking for a scripter. It's fine for something like a global tailor or a global guild system, but adding in full systems that would need close to nothing to tweak to get a server running would be a bad idea and there would be too many servers with the same gameplay systems applying for hosted and classic. There's a reason why others get angry when full scripts are posted on the forums when answering player-related questions since those players will just copy-and-paste the script and not bother to learn anything from it.

There is a fine line of systems that would be suitable for the packages and systems that define a server cross that line.

I do not agree. Who loses when an RPG-Server and a RTS-Server use the same systems for controlling the health of their players? Who loses when an bow and a wand both use the same script to shoot projectiles? No one.

It doesn't matter what systems you are using. It takes ideas and a united team to make a good server.

If you are concerned with people just grabbing the package and making their whole server based off of that - don't be. Because no one will play it and it will die, just as it would now if any made a "cool new server where you can run and slash at people and even pick up stones".

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

I do not agree. Who loses when an RPG-Server and a RTS-Server use the same systems for controlling the health of their players? Who loses when an bow and a wand both use the same script to shoot projectiles? No one.

It doesn't matter what systems you are using. It takes ideas and a united team to make a good server.

If you are concerned with people just grabbing the package and making their whole server based off of that - don't be. Because no one will play it and it will die, just as it would now if any made a "cool new server where you can run and slash at people and even pick up stones".

Problem is even the PWA are trying to crack down on too many servers having similar content.

[Inverness]

Some input from Stefan might be nice. After all, I'm sure there are more people than me who want Stefan to also do his part in making Graal a better game.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Problem is even the PWA are trying to crack down on too many servers having similar content.

And they can continue to do so even with these packages in place. The systems do not define the "heart" of the server.

There will always be people who lack innovation and will just try to copy other's ideas.

These packages will make it a lot easier for the innovative developers to make the next-gen server, which is what is truly important.

Originally Posted by Inverness

Some input from Stefan might be nice. After all, I'm sure there are more people than me who want Stefan to also do his part in making Graal a better game.

I agree, and would like his input on the group as well, including some of the things brought up.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

And they can continue to do so even with these packages in place. The systems do not define the "heart" of the server.

There will always be people who lack innovation and will just try to copy other's ideas.

These packages will make it a lot easier for the innovative developers to make the next-gen server, which is what is truly important.

In response to both of you, I would think of it similar to licensing a game engine. Mass Effect, BioShock, Mirror's Edge, Unreal Tournament 3, etc. all use the same game engine and yet they're all quite unique.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Inverness

In response to both of you, I would think of it similar to licensing a game engine. Mass Effect, BioShock, Mirror's Edge, Unreal Tournament 3, etc. all use the same game engine and yet they're all quite unique.

I agree -- that was the analogy I was trying to make with Graal.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Problem is even the PWA are trying to crack down on too many servers having similar content.

I think you may be mistaking 'similar' content with direct thefts. Those servers we've stomped on are not only using things directly taken and renamed from images to gani's but the levels themselves. The design and overall gameplay were direct clones.

Other than that the only ones we've cracked down on have copyrighted content such as the neopets one.

While we are asking them to bring some gameplay that is new and different from the other servers, we fully understand that there will always be similar aspects. Its really not in Graal's best interests to have several servers that have the exact same content and gameplay. All that does is thin out the playerbase to several servers. In which case they will all eventually die.

[Seich]

I think that making complete systems, ready for the grabs would allow server managers to actually spend more time developing details. Most of the time spent in new and serious servers will be spent in the making and developing basic systems. After all, most servers have the same base scripts (i.e. health, movement, etc.) and they all do basically the same, some servers might have better systems and others might be just bad so, this will simply help raise the general quality of content. That way a new playerworld would be able to start focusing on details which, I think is the most important thing playerworlds would get from such a team. If I could start a server today and, have it running high quality basic systems in some hours (that I can further modify if I need to) I can instantly start focusing on other aspects of the server such as game play. By having this basic systems provided I can start developing my quests and focusing on the things that actually make a server unique. Indeed, there will be several servers who will just die due to their lack of originality and content but, many are already dying without even getting started due to the lack of developers and sometimes originality as well.

Apart from the benefits I see for player worlds, I also see many advantages for developers. We could document global scripts and with this, allow developers to make use of these scripts in a more fluent way. For example I could go into a server that might have the same basic health system which I have already worked with on many other servers plus, it's well documented on the wiki this, will allow me to start developing using it without spending much time analyzing scripts and such. I could script baddies knowing that this system has some command to damage players and so on.

There might have been many flaws(which many people have pointed out before me) but, I think that in general this is worth trying.

[Pelikano]

You guys could just create such a group on your own, get on testbed and start working.

[Twinny]

I think I raised the point in my thread on the GPackages but these packages, if implemented, will provide the base, low-level functions needed for higher level systems. They will never be a complete system in themselves because each server is likely to customize their server from the returns the system gives.

They can be thought of as building blocks or even just placeholders but it could never replace scripters and shouldn't hamper one's ability to learn

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Pelikano

You guys could just create such a group on your own, get on testbed and start working.

If you had read more posts in this thread you'd probably understand why that is not an option.

[Draenin]

We need a new Gscript dictionary. The wiki breaks up GS2 stuff way too much, and there's nothing even included for it in the default level editor. It has GS1 documentation, but not GS2.

But that aside, seems like an okay idea.


I can see how some might see it as slave labor, but others who actually care might see things otherwise. It would be nice if this new team were able to produce things for the community like a new default pics1.png with better-looking tiles or something like Mallard's Particle Editor, which makes it really simple for people like me to help out scripters without actually knowing much about gscript's language syntax.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Draenin

We need a new Gscript dictionary. The wiki breaks up GS2 stuff way too much, and there's nothing even included for it in the default level editor. It has GS1 documentation, but not GS2.

I agree, its confusing to a lot of people.

I really don't think that gpackages or the elite scripters providing scripts and documentation will in any way stop new people from learning gscript. Most of todays scripters learned it by tearing apart the work of others and figuring out how it worked anyway.

The major problem with an offline editor using gs2 scripting is the fact you need an npc server for them to actually function and its my understanding that its not really possible offline. The other argument has been to release the source code but since Graal is a gaming platform they sell licensing to thats pretty counterproductive on their part and a bad business decision.

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Bell

The major problem with an offline editor using gs2 scripting is the fact you need an npc server for them to actually function and its my understanding that its not really possible offline. The other argument has been to release the source code but since Graal is a gaming platform they sell licensing to thats pretty counterproductive on their part and a bad business decision.

Distribute the offline editor with an NPC Server, which wouldn't be a good decision for those that can use reverse engineering on it. So maybe allow them to connect to an NPC Server as an option for people with an internet connection, which wouldn't be fully offline but would still work for those without a connection.

[Gambet]

Gpackages having basic core scripts is completely understandable, I was merely arguing against full systems where no customization would be necessary (with regards to systems that define a server not things like tailors and such).

Originally Posted by Switch

Distribute the offline editor with an NPC Server, which wouldn't be a good decision for those that can use reverse engineering on it. So maybe allow them to connect to an NPC Server as an option for people with an internet connection, which wouldn't be fully offline but would still work for those without a connection.

Not necessary now that the Testbed Server is up.

[Inverness]

We also need some more proper demonstrations of how to use SQLite.

[Draenin]

Originally Posted by Bell

I agree, its confusing to a lot of people.

I really don't think that gpackages or the elite scripters providing scripts and documentation will in any way stop new people from learning gscript. Most of todays scripters learned it by tearing apart the work of others and figuring out how it worked anyway.

The major problem with an offline editor using gs2 scripting is the fact you need an npc server for them to actually function and its my understanding that its not really possible offline. The other argument has been to release the source code but since Graal is a gaming platform they sell licensing to thats pretty counterproductive on their part and a bad business decision.

Uh, no.

See, it's confusing to new people because they have to learn it solely from others. I would know GS2 by now if I didn't have to learn it purely by word-of-mouth. And also, things can be done to make GS2 more accessible to new players wanting to develop. This doesn't mean releasing source code or servers or anything. It means replacing that crappy .txt file that's in the editor right now with updated information on syntax.

And if you really want to get fancy about it, Gonstruct (in my sig) has a special feature which is to color-code things in GS2 so that it can be read more easily and mistakes can be found.



These are the kinds of solution this team should be working on. Little revisions like that go a long way.

[Loriel]

Posting to be a terrible lua fanboy and shower its Reference Manual with praise for being a very awesome, concise and complete(!) resource for learning the lua language that is worth emulating. I would link it but we all know that I am not allowed to have nice things~

[Elk]

lua is used by world of warcraft if im not wrong

[Pelikano]

Originally Posted by Elk

lua is used by world of warcraft if im not wrong

Lua is open source.

[Inverness]

Originally Posted by Pelikano

Lua is open source.

That fact does not change what Elk said, but let's not get off topic.

I'm still waiting on that input from Stefan. And I'd also like to know what Bell has gained so far from this discussion with regards to how this team is going to work.

[Crono]

I would be interested if I had time but sadly I don't.

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by Inverness

]I'm still waiting on that input from Stefan. And I'd also like to know what Bell has gained so far from this discussion with regards to how this team is going to work.

Same here.

[Pelikano]

Originally Posted by Inverness

That fact does not change what Elk said, but let's not get off topic.

I'm still waiting on that input from Stefan. And I'd also like to know what Bell has gained so far from this discussion with regards to how this team is going to work.

Doesn't change the fact, but it's used in a lot of other games aswell and it can be used in Graal aswell since it's open source.

[Switch]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Not necessary now that the Testbed Server is up.

New players (Graal####) wanting to learn how to develop before buying a server or subscription can't get an RC on there since you need at least a classic subscription, which is no longer possible, and as Tig said, he doesn't advertise it much so it's possible that they've never heard of it.

[Bell]

Update: I have asked Tig to make a special guild and add the members of the PWA to administrate it for now. I'm compiling a list of those people who have expressed interest and through their actions have already proven themselves. I see no need for those people to have to fill out a long application form.

Once a core group is in place we'll formulate an application. I agree that anyone applying should come with recommendations but it will be a way of letting others show their interest. This application shouldn't be long and complicated though.

Vulcan will be working with Darlene to set up a private forum and we'll also get global/staff connection set up again.

We'll also work out any details of all their specific duties. Most of which have already been discussed at length in this thread but I'm sure there will need to be some tweaks done. I believe that we can have a broad idea of them for now and become more detailed if necessary. Since this team is comprised of members of the entire development community its obvious that not everyone would be doing exactly the same thing. Gold will be optional but a plus since its required to get onto UC servers and will limit the number of people that can help in that area. In some cases though the help can be done via pm or uploading an image onto imageshack.

[[email protected]]

Hurray!

[Scary_Sock]

Finally!

[cyan3]

I hope the team will be a success in boosting confidence in server project teams and improving the standards and quality of development.

[Inverness]

Hm, I feel like I should refine and clean up my NPC Dialog system to make it more suitable for release.

Edit: And if more scripts are going to be released by the GDT, it would really help if Stefan would add the eventcatching functionality to the clientside. Currently you can only catch dynamic (scripted) events on the serverside and it is annoying. Event catching promotes modularity in scripts because your system script can provide hooks in the form of events to be caught by GUI scripts and similar. This would allow the event catching can be done without making a scripted (slower) and non-standard implementation.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Inverness

Edit: And if more scripts are going to be released by the GDT, it would really help if Stefan would add the eventcatching functionality to the clientside. Currently you can only catch dynamic (scripted) events on the serverside and it is annoying. Event catching promotes modularity in scripts because your system script can provide hooks in the form of events to be caught by GUI scripts and similar. This would allow the event catching can be done without making a scripted (slower) and non-standard implementation.

I agree 100% with this.


And it's good to see things getting done around here!

[Chompy]

Good to see that the team is being made, now just to get some good developers willing to help people, into it

[Deas_Voice]

cool!
is it too late to be in the "core group"? i would love to join(or help or w/e u say).

[Bell]

I've compiled a list of those of you that have showed interest in joining so far. It includes your subscription status (for my own information basically) and your selected fields both primary and secondary if you have one. Since not all the information is complete could each of you let me know what I'm missing? I would also like any of you to let me know if one or more of these people should not be included in the team and why. If I've missed anyone interested include that as well.

Vulcan: -Classic- Scripter
fowlplay4: -Classic- scripter/levels
Elk: -Gold- GFX
SwimChao:-Classic- GFX/Gani's/levels
Scary_Sock: -gold- GFX
Switch: -Gold- Scripter/gani
Litter: -Gold- Scripter
WanDaMan:-Classic- gmap tutorials
alexandralove:-Gold-
Inverness: -Classic- scripting
Curt1zzle: -Classic-
Seich: -gold- Gani, script
Deas_Voice: -gold- scripting
zokemon: -Classic- scripting
Ronnie: -Classic- Scripting,Gani,SFX,levels,GFX
Draenin: -Gold- hiring and project coordination
Imperialistic: -Classic-Levels

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Bell

Elk: -Gold- GFX

Elk's expressed on debug that he does not wish to join.

Originally Posted by Bell

fowlplay4: -Classic- scripter/levels

I've seen him say more than once that he cares for nothing other than zodiac.

[SwimChao]

Not sure if it's too late to put my name out there as well, and I'm also not sure how much time this sort of team would consume.

I have a pretty firm bg with pixeling/gfx with Graal.

Also, what about Managing a server at the same time? If this isn't possible just disregard this.

Edit: I have a classic account

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

Elk's expressed on debug that he does not wish to join.

I've seen him say more than once that he cares for nothing other than zodiac.

Then I wonder why he applied already. I thought it was only the females that were supposed to be so indecisive!