Graals Population

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Robin

The remote control is fine, but it should stick to what it was originally made for, organising and dealing with players. If I'm any sort of development staff, I should never need RC access, at all.

[*]FTP would return, or at least some *kind* of FTP, allowing backups to be made and versioning tools such as SVN to be put in place.

[*]Scripters had better means of creating and debugging scripts

I dont' see how any of this is related to Graal's current situation and how it would significantly help.

[Hiro]

it won't help at all

graal doesn't need new and better development tools - we need some new god damn content

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Hiro

graal doesn't need new and better development tools

Ya it does.

[fowlplay4]

It'd be a lot less tedious to create new content with updated development tools.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Crono

I dont' see how any of this is related to Graal's current situation and how it would significantly help.

Originally Posted by Hiro

it won't help at all

graal doesn't need new and better development tools - we need some new god damn content

These things are intrinsically linked, fools.

[Nelm]

Regardless of content and development tools, Graal will never see a sustainable boom in player count until the price drops, IMO.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Nelm

Regardless of content and development tools, Graal will never see a sustainable boom in player count until the price drops, IMO.

More like until it finds a better way of introducing new players to the game, but that's not possible at the moment due to the horrible quality of servers comparing to the gameplay of most other free MMORPG's.

[Nelm]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

...free MMORPG's.

Something Graal is not and should be. Graal is outdated and to be honest, I highly doubt that even if there were 5 quality servers to choose from that people would be willing to continuously willing to upgrade to play it. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it happening.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Ya it does.

how is it going to help if no one is uses them? having updates for 5 percent of the graal population (basically developers) instead of updates for 95 percent of graal's population (actual players) is plain stupid

we need actual content, not stuff to help make making content, theirs enough already - it isn't a problem

Originally Posted by Robin

These things are intrinsically linked, fools.

when did i say they weren't? i'm saying it's not needed, further updates for making development isn't going to help if theirs no one left to develop, which is what will happen if the current decline keeps up

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Hiro

how is it going to help if no one is uses them? having updates for 5 percent of the graal population (basically developers) instead of updates for 95 percent of graal's population (actual players) is plain stupid

we need actual content, not stuff to help make making content, theirs enough already - it isn't a problem

The fact that just about 99% of Graal is content made by players, it is very important. Not to mention anything developed even by Stefan is going to be using the same tools.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Nelm

Something Graal is not and should be. Graal is outdated and to be honest, I highly doubt that even if there were 5 quality servers to choose from that people would be willing to continuously willing to upgrade to play it. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it happening.

I'm completely against Graal's subscription methods, and believe they should do what most other games seems to do, and use in-game Shop for various vanity items instead. But for that to be possible, there needs to be at least one quality server, something Graal lacks.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

The fact that just about 99 of Graal is content made by players, it is very important. Not to mention anything developed even by Stefan is going to be using the same tools.

okay, but that doesn't invalidate my point at all, it still stands that it's going to be useless for most every player, and new development tools aren't going to bring in more players, agreed?

now imagine how excited we'd all be about the updates if stefan was announcing a new server

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Hiro

okay, but that doesn't invalidate my point at all, it still stands that it's going to be useless for most every player, and new development tools aren't going to bring in more players, agreed?

now imagine how excited we'd all be about the updates if stefan was announcing a new server

And how will Stefan make these great updates without updated tools?

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

And how will Stefan make these great updates without updated tools?

how will it be any better than making them right now? are you saying that stefan is incapable of making content because of the outdated tools he's trying to use?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Hiro

how will it be any better than making them right now? are you saying that stefan is incapable of making content because of the outdated tools he's trying to use?

Outdated tools = outdated content. He could make much better content with more updated tools.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Outdated tools = outdated content. He could make much better content with more updated tools.

so content built with outdated tools /= fun? or more specifically, old/boring content > new content built with "outdated tools"?

if you're going to argue for better tools, then i guess you must be a huge fan of the success that is graal3d? because that uses such a better system for creation, such more sophistication in development, just about every developer is trying to create things for graal3d right?

i mean seriously, get your priorities straight.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Hiro

if you're going to argue for better tools, then i guess you must be a huge fan of the success that is graal3d? because that uses such a better system for creation, such more sophistication in development, just about every developer is trying to create things for graal3d right?

From what I've gathered, a lot of developers (myself included) is against Graal 3D, so I'm not sure what you're basing your opinion over. Graal 3D isn't even actively being worked on, Stefan posted himself that it was more or less an "experiment" on CJ's side.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Hiro

so content built with outdated tools /= fun? or more specifically, old/boring content > new content built with "outdated tools"?

if you're going to argue for better tools, then i guess you must be a huge fan of the success that is graal3d? because that uses such a better system for creation, such more sophistication in development, just about every developer is trying to create things for graal3d right?

i mean seriously, get your priorities straight.

lol, you really are making assumptions here.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

From what I've gathered, a lot of developers (myself included) is against Graal 3D, so I'm not sure what you're basing your opinion over. Graal 3D isn't even actively being worked on, Stefan posted himself that it was more or less an "experiment" on CJ's side.

yea, i know, i was being sarcastic because it was an utter failure no matter which way you look at it, but it did happen to use more up to date tools

[fowlplay4]

It'd be sweet if it wasn't just Stefan developing the Graal client and the development tools for it, then just maybe we wouldn't be complaining about things being out of date.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

It'd be sweet if it wasn't just Stefan developing the Graal client and the development tools for it, then just maybe we wouldn't be complaining about things being out of date.

but then how could they charge for it? free and open source graal would be pretty interesting (not gonna happen)

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Crono

As I've said before, as long as CJ views Graal as a development platform it's not going to move forward and hasn't ever since this ****ty attitude was put to place.

--^

As for money, in the past they got people to upgrade because of servers like G2k1, G2k2, and Zone. Zone's prime ended after 2005, so that's almost 5 years without a decent/good flagship server.

[DustyPorViva]

The thing is, no matter how Stefan approaches Graal -- as a game or a development platform, both benefit. If Stefan were to develop a new server, a flagship server, do you think he'd just sit there limiting his ideas by the constricts of what is currently there? Not really. Anytime Stefan deeply gets involved in a server project, Graal benefits development-wise because of it. New world project, G2k1, and G2k2 are a great examples of this. All three of those brought things like NW format, all kinds of new tileset support, NPC-server, gani's, hats, classes, shoot, lights, terrain, mudlib(though only GK gets that...). And tons of other random things he's added because he needed it for his project, that benefits us all really.

So it's not like we really have to choose one or the other.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

So it's not like we really have to choose one or the other.

Yes you do. Just as you said, if Stefan is working on a new server we are likely to get a decent/good server and new development tools. However if only development tools are being worked on, there is no new flagship server. I also think that the new tools won't be as good as it would be if they were made along side the said new server.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Crono

Yes you do. Just as you said, if Stefan is working on a new server we are likely to get a decent/good server and new development tools. However if only development tools are being worked on, there is no new flagship server. I also think that the new tools won't be as good as it would be if they were made along side the said new server.

I never said I wanted purely developmental updates :P However, it would be nice to get updates to the client between servers like he used to do rather than these 'wait until a fully completed version is done' updates.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I never said I wanted purely developmental updates :P However, it would be nice to get updates to the client between servers like he used to do rather than these 'wait until a fully completed version is done' updates.

Do you honestly have any intention of ever playing Graal as a game again? I don't think you do, and it's the same for a lot of developers.

[Galdor]

Stop complaining about G3D you hopeless noobs, don't judge a book by its cover >=O

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Do you honestly have any intention of ever playing Graal as a game again? I don't think you do, and it's the same for a lot of developers.

I don't see how that really matters in this instance

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I don't see how that really matters in this instance

If you have no interest in playing Graal as a game, why would you be interested in a new server? A new server would not necessarily need new tools, which is what people are trying to express here.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Rufus

If you have no interest in playing Graal as a game, why would you be interested in a new server? A new server would not necessarily need new tools.

Of course a developer is going to favor new developer tools. However I also started in the post you quoted that I wouldn't mind it either way. Whether Stefan develops a server or just development tools, it's going to go in my favor.

However, whether I'd play a new server is hard to say... just because I develop doesn't mean I have no interest. I do still play games -- Zelda being one of them as well. Graal has just had nothing to offer me in a long time.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Of course a developer is going to favor new developer tools. However I also started in the post you quoted that I wouldn't mind it either way. Whether Stefan develops a server or just development tools, it's going to go in my favor.

However, whether I'd play a new server is hard to say... just because I develop doesn't mean I have no interest. I do still play games -- Zelda being one of them as well. Graal has just had nothing to offer me in a long time.

it hasn't had anything to offer to anyone in a long time - which is why we need new content, not new tools for making content. why were you even arguing with me in the first place if you don't care since it will benefit you anyways? wouldn't you want the benefits that also benefit all of us?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Hiro

it hasn't had anything to offer to anyone in a long time - which is why we need new content, not new tools for making content. why were you even arguing with me in the first place if you don't care since it will benefit you anyways? wouldn't you want the benefits that also benefit all of us?

Because it needs both. Graal is not strictly a game. It is also a development platform, at least it advertises itself as such. Right now it seems people paying for servers are the ones paying the most. They have to upgrade their accounts AND pay for a server. Sure, Graal is a game and that can't be forgotten, however people are also paying for it as a development platform and to exclude all of them would be dumb. As long as people are paying to develop, they are just as much customers as the players.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Because it needs both. Graal is not strictly a game. It is also a development platform, at least it advertises itself as such. Right now it seems people paying for servers are the ones paying the most. They have to upgrade their accounts AND pay for a server. Sure, Graal is a game and that can't be forgotten, however people are also paying for it as a development platform and to exclude all of them would be dumb. As long as people are paying to develop, they are just as much customers as the players.

so the people who pay the most money should get the most updates, the most focus, and the better quality of game, even though they are the vast minority type of player and, at this point, haven't created anything

oh yea, graal is finished if we keep that attitude, absolutely done for

[salesman]

Graal's "popular" servers were all made by players.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Hiro

so the people who pay the most money should get the most updates, the most focus, and the better quality of game, even though they are the vast minority type of player and, at this point, haven't created anything

oh yea, graal is finished if we keep that attitude, absolutely done for

Who said they should get the most updates? I just said it needs updates too.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Who said they should get the most updates? I just said it needs updates too.

do you agree that we need new content more than we need developing updates? because i know both are required, but the current update should be content related, not developer related, or at least some reassurance that on the next update(s) it will be content

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Hiro

do you agree that we need new content more than we need developing updates? because i know both are required, but the current update should be content related, not developer related, or at least some reassurance that on the next update(s) it will be content

I already stated my opinion on that. This seems less about what seems better for Graal and more like you just want to piss at anyone who doesn't agree with you and get them to bow down to you if you get the feeling they 'changed to your side'. These whole back and forth posts have been me posting, and then you posting some disagreement+insult/snide/sarcastic remark when I didn't even provoke it.

However, going back to the original post you posted. You said, "graal doesn't need new and better development tools" and I strongly disagree. It does need new and better development tools, because it does sell itself as such. It's not fair to **** all over these customers and give all those customers what they want. I never said one needed it more over the other, just that development tools do need to be upgraded, and they do. Whether or not one needs it over the other is something I already covered, and something I consider a null point to argue over.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I already stated my opinion on that. This seems less about what seems better for Graal and more like you just want to piss at anyone who doesn't agree with you and get them to bow down to you if you get the feeling they 'changed to your side'. These whole back and forth posts have been me posting, and then you posting some disagreement+insult/snide/sarcastic remark when I didn't even provoke it.

However, going back to the original post you posted. You said, "graal doesn't need new and better development tools" and I strongly disagree. It does need new and better development tools, because it does sell itself as such. It's not fair to **** all over these customers and give all those customers what they want. I never said one needed it more over the other, just that development tools do need to be upgraded, and they do. Whether or not one needs it over the other is something I already covered, and something I consider a null point to argue over.

i get the same vibe from reading what you post, because yea both types of updates are needed, and yea you don't want to **** over the developers who have been paying for servers; but nothing is coming out any time soon, people are quitting with nothing to bring them back, and having (on a good day) only 500 or so people on every server is terrible, it's a steady decline until it gets down to the core of graal's players, and when they start quitting then everything's pretty much done, though that probably won't happen for awhile. i'm hoping something will get finished eventually, whenever eventually is

also, ****ing over the majority of active players who pay subscriptions and to classic accounts to god knows when anything interesting will come out < delaying tool updates for developers

also, sorry for the animosity on my part

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Hiro

also, ****ing over the majority of active players who pay subscriptions and to classic accounts to god knows when anything interesting will come out < delaying tool updates for developers

Again, when did I say they should **** over active players? Again, you're just making up stuff.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Again, when did I say they should **** over active players? Again, you're just making up stuff.

it's what is implied