Developing should be free for servers that are staff-only

[salesman]

Title pretty much says it all, but I don't think we should have to upgrade an account just to work on a server. If the server has staffonly set to true in the serveroptions, anyone with a registered account (whether it be gold, lifetime classic, or even trial) should be allowed to work there without limitations.

I'm sure some of you will say, "Whoa man, won't Graal lose tons of money?" Graal would still be making money from server rentals, and I'd imagine that more people would be willing to invest in a server knowing that their friends can work with them without upgrading. If/when the server decides to open up for players, accounts will need the appropriate subscription.

As someone who has rented a server, I know how hard it can be to find developers. The most common response I had when trying to get people to work with me was "I don't want to pay to work" -- who would?

A Global Development Team sounds nice, sure, but if you're really interested in helping developers, stop making them pay to develop your game.

[papajchris]

Originally Posted by salesman

Title pretty much says it all, but I don't think we should have to upgrade an account just to work on a server. If the server has staffonly set to true in the serveroptions, anyone with a registered account (whether it be gold, lifetime classic, or even trial) should be allowed to work there without limitations.

I'm sure some of you will say, "Whoa man, won't Graal lose tons of money?" Graal would still be making money from server rentals, and I'd imagine that more people would be willing to invest in a server knowing that their friends can work with them without upgrading. If/when the server decides to open up for players, accounts will need the appropriate subscription.

As someone who has rented a server, I know how hard it can be to find developers. The most common response I had when trying to get people to work with me was "I don't want to pay to work" -- who would?

A Global Development Team sounds nice, sure, but if you're really interested in helping developers, stop making them pay to develop your game.

This is a great idea, i think alot more servers would find it easier to get a staff team. And if graal really is concerned with making money they could charge a fee to get to hosted and/or to get classic. But i shouldn't be giving them any ideas to take more money from players.

[fowlplay4]

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

Good idea, and I'm sure the PWA could also intervene if a server is doing something like this.

[Pelikano]

This is a great idea, still Graal would lose money, any way you put it atleast 0.00000000000000001 Euro is being lost, so I don't think it'll happen.

As Stefan has stated once he has GIVEN UP Graal already and is SATISFIED if he earns enough to pay the servers etc.

[BlueMelon]

Great Idea.

[Dragonosteel]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

Best idea ever.

[Vman13x]

Can someone send me the message where stefan says hes given up? I kind of dont believe it and would like proof.

Also I think its a great idea.

[Trak]

Its a great Idea
but wouldnt EVERYONE try and get one? wouldnt it cause some major lag issues D:

[cyan3]

Originally Posted by Trak

Its a great Idea
but wouldnt EVERYONE try and get one? wouldnt it cause some major lag issues D:

How would it cause major lag issues?

[Trak]

I was once told that all private servers are ran off the same engine or w/e they said
so if one server was to cause some major lag issues, the rest suffer

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by Trak

I was once told that all private servers are ran off the same engine or w/e they said
so if one server was to cause some major lag issues, the rest suffer

Graal servers run in Linux VServers which do use shared resources. Depending on the configuration, it is possible for an intensive process in one vserver to disrupt the other vservers (e.g. thrashing the disks) but there are probably limits setup to try and prevent this.

I think the virtual servers are spread accross a few hosts as it wouldn't be a good idea to host all UC worlds on a single server.

[Trak]

oh

[TESTRETIS]

Return of Staff accounts!

[Galdor]

Originally Posted by TESTRETIS

Return of Staff accounts!

oh yea I had "GaldorGFX" I think :P or something like that...
But I like the ideas you guys have =D

[Pelikano]

Originally Posted by Stefan

My 2 cents:
Please play and develope for Graal if you have fun with it, don't get a headache by making weird business proposals. We know ourself that the best way to make money with Graal would be to take some successful server, stop development, making it Flash or so, and make tons of advertising (advertising for and in the game). But that wouldn't be Graal. The interesting part of Graal is that the players can take part, can submit their own graphics for heads, become FAQ, get RC, make their own server, work on interesting projects. We currently have a clear plan for Graal, that is releasing v6 in the near future to make the game run fast and bring a lot of new possibilities for players and developers. But we know that Graal will not make us rich, we are happy if the subscriptions can pay for the costs of running it. That's why we take the opportunities and try to expand into other areas, including iPhone and mobile devices where the future of computing and gaming lies, and use our experience with online game.

intrepend it how you want

[fowlplay4]

"iPhone and mobile devices where the future of computing and gaming lies"

I hope not..

[Crow]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

"iPhone and mobile devices where the future of computing and gaming lies"

I hope not..

Of course not. That's complete bull****. Mobile gaming is a minority, and that won't change either.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Crow

Of course not. That's complete bull****. Mobile gaming is a minority, and that won't change either.

Doesn't mean money cannot still be made!

I "intrepend" what Stefan said as, "Hey, Graal is a development platform. We'll provide major core updates from time to time, but our goal isn't to create a game, but to allow you to create your own games. We don't envision profiting off of GraalOnline, because it was never meant to be some huge, money-making MMO. (So stop trying to push your business models on us, unless you're a degree-touting professional businessperson!)

"To ensure that we remain a viable company, we're focusing our efforts on mobile gaming, an emerging market with new possibilities. You may not like this, but I'm pretty sure you'd not like not having Graal even more. Caio!"



Anyways, this proposition has some neat aspects. Developing for free is a neat idea, but you have to find a way to offset the monetary loss of people not paying to upgrade their accounts. That's where you'll lose most companies.

[Vman13x]

Exactly how I interpreted it, or well most of it.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Crow

Of course not. That's complete bull****. Mobile gaming is a minority, and that won't change either.

This isn't true. Many more people have phones and such rather than consoles, and games on the very popular iphone and ipod touch are purchased by a vast amount of people!

Last I recall, it only took the Tank game creator ~3-4 months before he quit his job and lived off of the loads of 99c purchases people had made, giving him at the time ~$240,000

[Darklux]

Funny but unrealistic idea, as development playerworlds probaply quite bring in the money.

[James]

Just look how many people have downloaded Bomber Online or whatever for the iPhone and multiply that by $3.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by James

Just look how many people have downloaded Bomber Online or whatever for the iPhone and multiply that by $3.

Yeah, but they won't be willing to totally kill graals profitability, as hosting is probaply an income factor.
Most playerworlds never reach anything and many people would wan't one, can't see this working.

[salesman]

I wonder how many people actually upgrade for hosted servers alone, and I wonder if a system such as the one fowlplay suggested:

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

would not be more profitable. I obviously don't have the resources to research such a thing, but I think it's definitely something Graal should look into if they truly care about the developers and "realize graal isn't going to make them rich".

[Pelikano]

They don't give a **** about Graal anymore, god damnit!

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Pelikano

They don't give a **** about Graal anymore, god damnit!

Do you really think that "they" are needed for you to make your server?

By now, we get it. You can stop spamming this little nugget in every thread regarding GraalOnline.

[Pelikano]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Do you really think that "they" are needed for you to make your server?

By now, we get it. You can stop spamming this little nugget in every thread regarding GraalOnline.

It seems that it's needed to be spammed into every thread regarding GraalOnline.

And people are crying about them being needed in their servers.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Pelikano

And people are crying about them being needed in their servers.

No, some guy is saying that he doesn't want to pay for a server that will never reach the light of day.

"They" are not needed for me to go in to Valikorlia and script trade, shops, and battle systems. "They" are not needed for me to open up GraalEditor and make some levels. "They" are only needed when I want to be annoying and blame my own incompetence on "them".

This isn't a terrible idea, but having you as a spokesperson for any suggestion is.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

No, some guy is saying that he doesn't want to pay for a server that will never reach the light of day.

"They" are not needed for me to go in to Valikorlia and script trade, shops, and battle systems. "They" are not needed for me to open up GraalEditor and make some levels. "They" are only needed when I want to be annoying and blame my own incompetence on "them".

This isn't a terrible idea, but having you as a spokesperson for any suggestion is.

This is one of the better posts I've read for a while - people need to realize that they aren't completely incompetent without CJ holding their hand.

Use the tools you've been given, instead of complaining about the things that doesn't exist.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

This is one of the better posts I've read for a while - people need to realize that they aren't completely incompetent without CJ holding their hand.

Use the tools you've been given, instead of complaining about the things that doesn't exist.

while i agree, there are still things CJ could be doing better. they could release their own content while still making graal a development platform, while still breaking into the mobile market. you can't tell me that, if CJ wanted, they couldn't bring together some talented developers and create a new server for people to play - because honestly, with the pessimism and lack of motivation from players and developers, while it may be up to us to make our own content and "our own game" almost everything being created by players will never be used on graal, and never reach the classic tab, or god forbid the gold tab. not to mention the fact that a lot of people are not developers and play graal because it's a video game, not a development platform (for them). i don't see why developers should be taken care of with updates and new tools, and the players are left in the dust while those developers stumble about trying to create something in a spread out, unmotivated environment. shouldn't the players be given some direct CJ updates and content too? don't they matter just as much as the developers? don't they also pay for this game?

i mean seriously, when was the last time a new server was released?

[LoneAngelIbesu]

It's not, and never has been, Stefan's job (nor anybody else's job) to make the servers you play on. Classic servers are made and run by staff. So if there's a feature you want, you need to talk to the staff. If there's a feature developers want, then that's where asking Stefan comes in to play. Although, plenty of things in the Future Improvements forum are things that could be scripted, rather than things that must be put in the core. (copyfile(), anchoring come to mind.)

For the player-side of things, there are really only client updates, to make the game run smoother. This is already being done. Everything else is for the developers, because Graal is a development platform. It's up to staff to make the games; it's not GraalOnline's responsibility.

Also, if a server doesn't make Classic, then it's for a reason. There's no conspiracy preventing UC servers from being quality servers.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Should have found out by now, that the word free doesnt make it very far around these parts.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

For the player-side of things, there are really only client updates, to make the game run smoother. This is already being done. Everything else is for the developers, because Graal is a development platform. It's up to staff to make the games; it's not GraalOnline's responsibility.

it's this exact type of thinking that creates so much negativity and makes people unmotivated. if you're saying it's not CJ's responsibility to make their game worth paying for by keeping it full of fun content to play on, and their only job is to make little updates here and there, then maybe development really should be free - most players bought graal because it was a MMO, not because it was a development platform. only up until development became a bigger source of income did the focus switch, and you can see what it's done to graal so far (minus all the idiotic CJ-doesn't care conspirators and things-are-only-for-money mongers, those aren't exactly true)

i don't know when we all got around to thinking in this fashion, but it certainly was not how graal was originally, and it certainly isn't making the game more popular with it's core players. all of the most popular servers have been made by CJ (read: stefan) - correlation?

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Use the tools you've been given, instead of complaining about the things that doesn't exist.

The tools? We barely have any tools, and it's not like we can improve the scripting engine. Stefan has seen fit to ban anyone attempting to make their own RC, yet he stubbornly refuses to update ours. Developers are truly scammed by Graal. The only reason I continue to upgrade is because I enjoy developing, but lately I've been getting even more annoyed about the huge lack of client updates, so that could change.

[oo_jazz_oo]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

Last I recall, it only took the Tank game creator ~3-4 months before he quit his job and lived off of the loads of 99c purchases people had made, giving him at the time ~$240,000

Maybe if that happened with graal, we would never have to pay for a server again. -_-

Then again...if that did happen, we would probably still have to pay for servers just because...

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

The tools? We barely have any tools, and it's not like we can improve the scripting engine.

Way to take the word tools literally. Everything you have - be in GraalShop, GraalEditor, RC, scripting engine, serverlister - whatever, can be used to make some truly unique worlds.

Lately people have been complaining about how they can't do this and that, but what they fail to do in the process, is to look at what they can do.

Updates takes time, but we do see them from time to time. If you're not happy, the choise is yours to leave.

Originally Posted by cbk1994

The only reason I continue to upgrade is because I enjoy developing, but lately I've been getting even more annoyed about the huge lack of client updates, so that could change.

Cyberjoueurs provide you with development tools to do what you enjoy, there is no where stated that they have to build onto what they're already providing - the things that are here is what you yourself paied for after all.


I've said it once, and I'll gladly say it again. Not happy? Then leave. Stop expecting so god damn much and do what you can with what you have.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Hiro

it's this exact type of thinking that creates so much negativity and makes people unmotivated. if you're saying it's not CJ's responsibility to make their game worth paying for by keeping it full of fun content to play on, and their only job is to make little updates here and there, then maybe development really should be free - most players bought graal because it was a MMO, not because it was a development platform. only up until development became a bigger source of income did the focus switch, and you can see what it's done to graal so far (minus all the idiotic CJ-doesn't care conspirators and things-are-only-for-money mongers, those aren't exactly true)

i don't know when we all got around to thinking in this fashion, but it certainly was not how graal was originally, and it certainly isn't making the game more popular with it's core players. all of the most popular servers have been made by CJ (read: stefan) - correlation?

It's not "their game", ffs. It's our development platform. It's job of the server staff to make a game worth playing. People upgraded their accounts to play servers created by developers, not by GraalOnline. I don't get why you aren't understanding this.

Also, Zodiac and UN were made by Stefan? Really?

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

It's not "their game", ffs. It's our development platform.

Indeed. To back it up, this is how CJ's advertisment looks like on GraalOnline.com:

Graal Zone: A futuristic 2D battle game
Playerworlds: Create your own game
Graal Skills: Huge ressource of casual games (note: Stefan has stated that this project was moved to iPhone instead, and that the current one on Graal is only kept around for who knows what reasons)
Graal Kingdoms: An adventurous MMORPG

Nowhere is GraalOnline as a whole advertised as a game - because it's not one anymore, and haven't been for a long time. It's a development platform where two of their own games and some playerworlds are being hosted.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by salesman

stop making them pay to develop your game.

This will not stop i guarantee it.

I agree with Ziro also. I personally feel that Graal is more known for being a development platform, rather than a MMORPG, and i get that vibe from years of waiting for some spectacular to give GraalOnline a 'boost' of some sort, but the only thing i've seen from Management are various Client updates, some helped Graal as a whole i guess, but a lot hurt it.