Developing should be free for servers that are staff-only

[salesman]

Title pretty much says it all, but I don't think we should have to upgrade an account just to work on a server. If the server has staffonly set to true in the serveroptions, anyone with a registered account (whether it be gold, lifetime classic, or even trial) should be allowed to work there without limitations.

I'm sure some of you will say, "Whoa man, won't Graal lose tons of money?" Graal would still be making money from server rentals, and I'd imagine that more people would be willing to invest in a server knowing that their friends can work with them without upgrading. If/when the server decides to open up for players, accounts will need the appropriate subscription.

As someone who has rented a server, I know how hard it can be to find developers. The most common response I had when trying to get people to work with me was "I don't want to pay to work" -- who would?

A Global Development Team sounds nice, sure, but if you're really interested in helping developers, stop making them pay to develop your game.

[papajchris]

Originally Posted by salesman

Title pretty much says it all, but I don't think we should have to upgrade an account just to work on a server. If the server has staffonly set to true in the serveroptions, anyone with a registered account (whether it be gold, lifetime classic, or even trial) should be allowed to work there without limitations.

I'm sure some of you will say, "Whoa man, won't Graal lose tons of money?" Graal would still be making money from server rentals, and I'd imagine that more people would be willing to invest in a server knowing that their friends can work with them without upgrading. If/when the server decides to open up for players, accounts will need the appropriate subscription.

As someone who has rented a server, I know how hard it can be to find developers. The most common response I had when trying to get people to work with me was "I don't want to pay to work" -- who would?

A Global Development Team sounds nice, sure, but if you're really interested in helping developers, stop making them pay to develop your game.

This is a great idea, i think alot more servers would find it easier to get a staff team. And if graal really is concerned with making money they could charge a fee to get to hosted and/or to get classic. But i shouldn't be giving them any ideas to take more money from players.

[fowlplay4]

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

Good idea, and I'm sure the PWA could also intervene if a server is doing something like this.

[Dragonosteel]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

Best idea ever.

[salesman]

I wonder how many people actually upgrade for hosted servers alone, and I wonder if a system such as the one fowlplay suggested:

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

would not be more profitable. I obviously don't have the resources to research such a thing, but I think it's definitely something Graal should look into if they truly care about the developers and "realize graal isn't going to make them rich".

[pokeSMOT]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

That would also assist with regulating the amount of desired staff a Server Manager would want. There wouldn't be an abundance of non-useful staff, because the Manager would be paying for each staff slot. They'd be a lot more careful and selective. I think the whole idea of this is a great idea, because sometimes, people want to just help out and see some of their work on a server. It gives a value in and of itself. As previously stated, people rarely, if ever, want to pay to work somewhere. This would be perfect!

[DesolateRestriction]

You can't have a successful developer's platform when the audience (both developers and players) are generally in their teens. I don't think Graal is a developer's platform because it's still advertised as a video game. When you log on the Graal website, do you see animated clips of stefan flipping through developer tools and explaining developer gold subscriptions? No. You see "him" -playing- and experiencing various servers as a player. He uses the promise of creative freedom as a hook line and sinker, but Graal is not setup to attract serious indie game developers.

The gaming industry is very competitive; you see games not allowed to be discussed on the forums improving GAMEPLAY(And with global economies on the decline, what do you think will be priority in terms of gaming expenses?)

I agree with Hiro in this situation. We're telling a bunch of teenagers and young adults (25 or younger) that, for 70 USD for 6 months, you can have your creative freedom... with the exception that you still have to follow GraalOnline rules, assemble a team of volunteers who are also composed of teenagers, and rigorous inspections by the PWA... well when they get spare time to come inspect your playerworld that is.

If you truly want to turn Graal into a development platform, abolish PWA, claim no liability for server content, and make UC servers more accessible by the general population. Now I'm sure some of you want to shoot me for saying such ideas, I do not personally suggest looking at Graal as a Developer's platform.


But for those of you who feel that Graal should only be a developer's platform, how do you expect to draw in any professional indie talent when UC servers are so limited? I suggest allowing regular players to have more interaction on UC servers; seeing players appreciate, immerse, or otherwise enjoy one's work is the ONLY motivation/reward Graal currently offers for Developers.


When I look at Graal I see a double edged sword. On one side you have the players, and on the other you have the developers.
You have to appeal to both sides if you want Graal to flourish. Client and Engine performance updates will only get you so far when the the overall content is outdated and otherwise boring. I agree with Hiro in this situation also, who better to formulate a design for a new server or massive server revamps than Stefan himself? Who could do better than he to bring a number of developers together?


You don't have to make anything free when the quality matches the price.


(Also, it'd be a good idea to link the community together in the login server. Why not advertise links to the wiki, forums, website, and subscription plans there? have it Advertise randomly select a topic/thread from the forums to display, followed by a link to read more. )

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

You can't have a successful developer's platform when the audience (both developers and players) are generally in their teens. I don't think Graal is a developer's platform because it's still advertised as a video game. When you log on the Graal website, do you see animated clips of stefan flipping through developer tools and explaining developer gold subscriptions? No. You see "him" -playing- and experiencing various servers as a player. He uses the promise of creative freedom as a hook line and sinker, but Graal is not setup to attract serious indie game developers.

The gaming industry is very competitive; you see games not allowed to be discussed on the forums improving GAMEPLAY(And with global economies on the decline, what do you think will be priority in terms of gaming expenses?)

I agree with Hiro in this situation. We're telling a bunch of teenagers and young adults (25 or younger) that, for 70 USD for 6 months, you can have your creative freedom... with the exception that you still have to follow GraalOnline rules, assemble a team of volunteers who are also composed of teenagers, and rigorous inspections by the PWA... well when they get spare time to come inspect your playerworld that is.

If you truly want to turn Graal into a development platform, abolish PWA, claim no liability for server content, and make UC servers more accessible by the general population. Now I'm sure some of you want to shoot me for saying such ideas, I do not personally suggest looking at Graal as a Developer's platform.


But for those of you who feel that Graal should only be a developer's platform, how do you expect to draw in any professional indie talent when UC servers are so limited? I suggest allowing regular players to have more interaction on UC servers; seeing players appreciate, immerse, or otherwise enjoy one's work is the ONLY motivation/reward Graal currently offers for Developers.


When I look at Graal I see a double edged sword. On one side you have the players, and on the other you have the developers.
You have to appeal to both sides if you want Graal to flourish. Client and Engine performance updates will only get you so far when the the overall content is outdated and otherwise boring. I agree with Hiro in this situation also, who better to formulate a design for a new server or massive server revamps than Stefan himself? Who could do better than he to bring a number of developers together?


You don't have to make anything free when the quality matches the price.


(Also, it'd be a good idea to link the community together in the login server. Why not advertise links to the wiki, forums, website, and subscription plans there? have it Advertise randomly select a topic/thread from the forums to display, followed by a link to read more. )

not surprised at no posts after this one

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

You can't have a successful developer's platform when the audience (both developers and players) are generally in their teens. I don't think Graal is a developer's platform because it's still advertised as a video game. When you log on the Graal website, do you see animated clips of stefan flipping through developer tools and explaining developer gold subscriptions? No. You see "him" -playing- and experiencing various servers as a player. He uses the promise of creative freedom as a hook line and sinker, but Graal is not setup to attract serious indie game developers.

I agree with this first paragraph. You have my interest.

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

I agree with Hiro in this situation. We're telling a bunch of teenagers and young adults (25 or younger) that, for 70 USD for 6 months, you can have your creative freedom... with the exception that you still have to follow GraalOnline rules, assemble a team of volunteers who are also composed of teenagers, and rigorous inspections by the PWA... well when they get spare time to come inspect your playerworld that is.


If you truly want to turn Graal into a development platform, abolish PWA, claim no liability for server content, and make UC servers more accessible by the general population. Now I'm sure some of you want to shoot me for saying such ideas, I do not personally suggest looking at Graal as a Developer's platform.

And... here's where you lost it. It's not $70 to have your creative freedom, it is $70 to have your creative freedom + pay for server space which includes electric bill and internet and maintaining the machines. It's actually fairly cheap for the amount of stuff you get and the power GS2 does have (although more definitely needs to be added for it to be considered a serious development platform).

Yes, of course you will still have to follow GraalOnline rules, otherwise servers would just be running rampant uploading pornography, copyrighted content, and extremely obscene things. Since the game is hosted on GraalOnline servers you have to follow GraalOnline rules. Any server host requires that you follow their terms of condition, including web hosts, dedicated server hosts, etc. Why wouldn't you have to follow the rules? Remember, these are their machines, they are legally liable for them and their content.

Rigorous inspections? Try simple inspections for basic quality, content and control. It does not take a ton to get accepted to classic, all you need is a halfway decent server, and even less than that to get Hosted status. One of the incredible things about Graal is not the fact that you can develop your own game, but it is that you can develop your own game and have it approved to be advertised to all sorts of players who play Graal. Since Graal IS a development platform as well as a game, this is an incredible opportunity. I don't know many games that allow you to develop your own content, even as a complete amateur and have it uploaded onto the official game which is run by players -- just like you! You propose removing the PWA though, which would just be shooting yourself in the foot. PWA is not only here to protect GraalOnline, but to protect you as a developer as well. If your content is being used against your will and there is no one to enforce it, then you're just out of luck, how frustrating. PWA is also monitoring for copyrighted material and enforcing basic amounts of quality control on the classic servers. A game like Graal would not survive without the PWA, they are currently key to Graal and if the PWA team vanished tomorrow I am willing to place money on the notion that Graal would plummet quite a bit from where it is right now (no one running support center, handling corrupt activities in server management, making administrative decisions to [hopefully] benefit Graal).

There is a lot more freedom as a developer if you code the game yourself (using other languages such as C++, Python, etc). All indie developers know this, and most take advantage of it. No one forces the development to be on Graal, everyone is free to go off and start their own projects. The little secret that people sometimes forget about themselves is that they lack the ability and knowledge, but Graal makes it easier for them, and that is why they are here developing. To me, that says many things, but I will let you use your imagination .

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

But for those of you who feel that Graal should only be a developer's platform, how do you expect to draw in any professional indie talent when UC servers are so limited? I suggest allowing regular players to have more interaction on UC servers; seeing players appreciate, immerse, or otherwise enjoy one's work is the ONLY motivation/reward Graal currently offers for Developers.


When I look at Graal I see a double edged sword. On one side you have the players, and on the other you have the developers.
You have to appeal to both sides if you want Graal to flourish. Client and Engine performance updates will only get you so far when the the overall content is outdated and otherwise boring. I agree with Hiro in this situation also, who better to formulate a design for a new server or massive server revamps than Stefan himself? Who could do better than he to bring a number of developers together?


You don't have to make anything free when the quality matches the price.


(Also, it'd be a good idea to link the community together in the login server. Why not advertise links to the wiki, forums, website, and subscription plans there? have it Advertise randomly select a topic/thread from the forums to display, followed by a link to read more. )

Some of what is said here is pretty good too.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

And... here's where you lost it. It's not $70 to have your creative freedom, it is $70 to have your creative freedom + pay for server space which includes electric bill and internet and maintaining the machines. It's actually fairly cheap for the amount of stuff you get and the power GS2 does have (although more definitely needs to be added for it to be considered a serious development platform).

Yes, of course you will still have to follow GraalOnline rules, otherwise servers would just be running rampant uploading pornography, copyrighted content, and extremely obscene things. Since the game is hosted on GraalOnline servers you have to follow GraalOnline rules. Any server host requires that you follow their terms of condition, including web hosts, dedicated server hosts, etc. Why wouldn't you have to follow the rules? Remember, these are their machines, they are legally liable for them and their content.

Rigorous inspections? Try simple inspections for basic quality, content and control. It does not take a ton to get accepted to classic, all you need is a halfway decent server, and even less than that to get Hosted status. One of the incredible things about Graal is not the fact that you can develop your own game, but it is that you can develop your own game and have it approved to be advertised to all sorts of players who play Graal. Since Graal IS a development platform as well as a game, this is an incredible opportunity. I don't know many games that allow you to develop your own content, even as a complete amateur and have it uploaded onto the official game which is run by players -- just like you! You propose removing the PWA though, which would just be shooting yourself in the foot. PWA is not only here to protect GraalOnline, but to protect you as a developer as well. If your content is being used against your will and there is no one to enforce it, then you're just out of luck, how frustrating. PWA is also monitoring for copyrighted material and enforcing basic amounts of quality control on the classic servers. A game like Graal would not survive without the PWA, they are currently key to Graal and if the PWA team vanished tomorrow I am willing to place money on the notion that Graal would plummet quite a bit from where it is right now (no one running support center, handling corrupt activities in server management, making administrative decisions to [hopefully] benefit Graal).

i'm not sure what you mean by saying graal is a development platform as well as a game, since the gaming aspect hasn't been emphasized in years

i also like the fact that the PWA are there, but to the extent to which you give them importance, it seems that the responsibility for running graal has been put completely into their hands, which i don't agree with. shouldn't the PWA be assisting stefan and unix as they run graal, not running graal in the absence of stefan and unixmad?

and lastly is the server costs - while i have no argument for the server hosting itself, i don't see how you can pay simply to have GS2. shouldn't you have included support for graal online staff in the assistance of helping amateur developers? shouldn't all servers have, at least, a once a week global on the server, checking on development and helping where needed? graal becomes better and stronger the more content is released - whether it be by graal staff or amateur developers is of no concern as long as it gets out. this might be hard for the PWA and GDT to handle, but it should be included in the job considering the global and social powers involved. if i create a support ticket asking for assistance in LATing for my server, would it ever reach the eyes of any global staff more than just the one person checking tickets that day? and even if they see it, will they even help out, or send help?

it's like paying for a car but given no gas and no instruction manual

[Pelikano]

This is a great idea, still Graal would lose money, any way you put it atleast 0.00000000000000001 Euro is being lost, so I don't think it'll happen.

As Stefan has stated once he has GIVEN UP Graal already and is SATISFIED if he earns enough to pay the servers etc.

[BlueMelon]

Great Idea.

[Vman13x]

Can someone send me the message where stefan says hes given up? I kind of dont believe it and would like proof.

Also I think its a great idea.

[Trak]

Its a great Idea
but wouldnt EVERYONE try and get one? wouldnt it cause some major lag issues D:

[cyan3]

Originally Posted by Trak

Its a great Idea
but wouldnt EVERYONE try and get one? wouldnt it cause some major lag issues D:

How would it cause major lag issues?

[Trak]

I was once told that all private servers are ran off the same engine or w/e they said
so if one server was to cause some major lag issues, the rest suffer

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by Trak

I was once told that all private servers are ran off the same engine or w/e they said
so if one server was to cause some major lag issues, the rest suffer

Graal servers run in Linux VServers which do use shared resources. Depending on the configuration, it is possible for an intensive process in one vserver to disrupt the other vservers (e.g. thrashing the disks) but there are probably limits setup to try and prevent this.

I think the virtual servers are spread accross a few hosts as it wouldn't be a good idea to host all UC worlds on a single server.

[Trak]

oh

[TESTRETIS]

Return of Staff accounts!

[Galdor]

Originally Posted by TESTRETIS

Return of Staff accounts!

oh yea I had "GaldorGFX" I think :P or something like that...
But I like the ideas you guys have =D

[Pelikano]

Originally Posted by Stefan

My 2 cents:
Please play and develope for Graal if you have fun with it, don't get a headache by making weird business proposals. We know ourself that the best way to make money with Graal would be to take some successful server, stop development, making it Flash or so, and make tons of advertising (advertising for and in the game). But that wouldn't be Graal. The interesting part of Graal is that the players can take part, can submit their own graphics for heads, become FAQ, get RC, make their own server, work on interesting projects. We currently have a clear plan for Graal, that is releasing v6 in the near future to make the game run fast and bring a lot of new possibilities for players and developers. But we know that Graal will not make us rich, we are happy if the subscriptions can pay for the costs of running it. That's why we take the opportunities and try to expand into other areas, including iPhone and mobile devices where the future of computing and gaming lies, and use our experience with online game.

intrepend it how you want

[fowlplay4]

"iPhone and mobile devices where the future of computing and gaming lies"

I hope not..

[Crow]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

"iPhone and mobile devices where the future of computing and gaming lies"

I hope not..

Of course not. That's complete bull****. Mobile gaming is a minority, and that won't change either.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Crow

Of course not. That's complete bull****. Mobile gaming is a minority, and that won't change either.

Doesn't mean money cannot still be made!

I "intrepend" what Stefan said as, "Hey, Graal is a development platform. We'll provide major core updates from time to time, but our goal isn't to create a game, but to allow you to create your own games. We don't envision profiting off of GraalOnline, because it was never meant to be some huge, money-making MMO. (So stop trying to push your business models on us, unless you're a degree-touting professional businessperson!)

"To ensure that we remain a viable company, we're focusing our efforts on mobile gaming, an emerging market with new possibilities. You may not like this, but I'm pretty sure you'd not like not having Graal even more. Caio!"



Anyways, this proposition has some neat aspects. Developing for free is a neat idea, but you have to find a way to offset the monetary loss of people not paying to upgrade their accounts. That's where you'll lose most companies.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Crow

Of course not. That's complete bull****. Mobile gaming is a minority, and that won't change either.

This isn't true. Many more people have phones and such rather than consoles, and games on the very popular iphone and ipod touch are purchased by a vast amount of people!

Last I recall, it only took the Tank game creator ~3-4 months before he quit his job and lived off of the loads of 99c purchases people had made, giving him at the time ~$240,000

[oo_jazz_oo]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

Last I recall, it only took the Tank game creator ~3-4 months before he quit his job and lived off of the loads of 99c purchases people had made, giving him at the time ~$240,000

Maybe if that happened with graal, we would never have to pay for a server again. -_-

Then again...if that did happen, we would probably still have to pay for servers just because...

[Vman13x]

Exactly how I interpreted it, or well most of it.

[Darklux]

Funny but unrealistic idea, as development playerworlds probaply quite bring in the money.

[James]

Just look how many people have downloaded Bomber Online or whatever for the iPhone and multiply that by $3.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by James

Just look how many people have downloaded Bomber Online or whatever for the iPhone and multiply that by $3.

Yeah, but they won't be willing to totally kill graals profitability, as hosting is probaply an income factor.
Most playerworlds never reach anything and many people would wan't one, can't see this working.

[Pelikano]

They don't give a **** about Graal anymore, god damnit!

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Pelikano

They don't give a **** about Graal anymore, god damnit!

Do you really think that "they" are needed for you to make your server?

By now, we get it. You can stop spamming this little nugget in every thread regarding GraalOnline.

[Pelikano]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Do you really think that "they" are needed for you to make your server?

By now, we get it. You can stop spamming this little nugget in every thread regarding GraalOnline.

It seems that it's needed to be spammed into every thread regarding GraalOnline.

And people are crying about them being needed in their servers.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Pelikano

And people are crying about them being needed in their servers.

No, some guy is saying that he doesn't want to pay for a server that will never reach the light of day.

"They" are not needed for me to go in to Valikorlia and script trade, shops, and battle systems. "They" are not needed for me to open up GraalEditor and make some levels. "They" are only needed when I want to be annoying and blame my own incompetence on "them".

This isn't a terrible idea, but having you as a spokesperson for any suggestion is.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

No, some guy is saying that he doesn't want to pay for a server that will never reach the light of day.

"They" are not needed for me to go in to Valikorlia and script trade, shops, and battle systems. "They" are not needed for me to open up GraalEditor and make some levels. "They" are only needed when I want to be annoying and blame my own incompetence on "them".

This isn't a terrible idea, but having you as a spokesperson for any suggestion is.

This is one of the better posts I've read for a while - people need to realize that they aren't completely incompetent without CJ holding their hand.

Use the tools you've been given, instead of complaining about the things that doesn't exist.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by salesman

stop making them pay to develop your game.

This will not stop i guarantee it.

I agree with Ziro also. I personally feel that Graal is more known for being a development platform, rather than a MMORPG, and i get that vibe from years of waiting for some spectacular to give GraalOnline a 'boost' of some sort, but the only thing i've seen from Management are various Client updates, some helped Graal as a whole i guess, but a lot hurt it.

[WhiteDragon]

I think Stefan treats Graal as a development platform, that's what he updates it as, and he has already said he: doesn't plan on making it a full-out game; or making a lot of money from it (which I think are correlated).

[cbk1994]

Being a "development platform", I would expect even greater emphasis on updating the tools that we need to develop, yet I've seen virtually no updates in several years.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Being a "development platform", I would expect even greater emphasis on updating the tools that we need to develop, yet I've seen virtually no updates in several years.

Who cares? RC works. GraalEditor works. GraalShop works. If these tools weren't good enough, we wouldn't have any servers.

This is what I don't really understand. These tools work just fine. You're just upset that they don't work the way you want them to. Well, you know, you deal with what you're given. If you don't like, if you can't use the tools, then don't develop. The likelihood of you stopping is nil, though, because the tools do work well enough for people to make servers.

It's okay to ask for features. But, hell, you make it sound like you're being neglected; like you can't develop at all.

Originally Posted by Hiro

do you know how many more players there are than developers?

I would hope that there are a lot more players than developers, otherwise the whole development community wouldn't be doing its job... It doesn't change the fact that GraalOnline is a development platform, though. The whole goal for developers is to create a game that people like, using the tools we've been given to create that game.