Custom or default

[mistral_007]

I think some wonders if the remade classic will have a custom or a default system. I think we deserve an answer before something gets started. We all know Storms position in this matter, but why should we have a custom system and barely any scripters who knows it?

Maybe a similair vote has been made before, so remove it if you wish=p

[DustyPorViva]

Custom is not bad if it is done right. Classic has never done it right, however.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Custom is not bad if it is done right. Classic has never done it right, however.

Agreed. Definitely a no on custom systems unless you can get them to behave exactly like the default ones. It won't feel like classic Graal unless it feels like classic Graal.

[maximus_asinus]

I am voting no a solid no.

Voting a "no, unless" gives them a foot in the door for a chance to give custom systems another run. Classic cannot survive another year while the scripters are tinkering away, trying to get it "just right".

[fowlplay4]

I don't see the point in re scripting functionality that's already there.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

I don't see the point in re scripting functionality that's already there.

Because a lot of the 'functionality' is actually not there... the default system is extremely limited in what is possible with it.

[BlackSolider]

I will hold off my vote until someone experienced in scripting with both systems explains them out in a post, as well as the current situation on classic. I've seen bits and pieces but I'd like the full report in one place.

[MysticX2X]

Custom systems are superior to default systems if they're made correctly and well documented.

The offside to Custom systems is that they take a while to redevelop. And Classic shouldn't have too much time to spare with other competing worlds being developed, as well as declining staff motivation.

I personally would like to see Default systems being used, but then again, it isn't my decision.

[DarkCloud_PK]

I like some of the custom systems, like nickname systems, that change color beyond the ap spectrum.(purple), some are unncessary

[Tigairius]

I voted custom, because custom system are generally more flexible and easy to edit, where as if you wanted to expand the movement system and it was default, there would be no way to improve it.

Scripting it encourages future expansion/improvement. However, it must be done to exactly replicate the classic movement system or else I retract my vote.

[mistral_007]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I voted custom, because custom system are generally more flexible and easy to edit, where as if you wanted to expand the movement system and it was default, there would be no way to improve it.

Scripting it encourages future expansion/improvement. However, it must be done to exactly replicate the classic movement system or else I retract my vote.

yes if people know that system and can script it, which is a problem on classic.

[fowlplay4]

Yes, there are many different things you can do with custom systems. But then people get so caught up with making these systems and when they finally get to the gameplay part they either are burned out, or have no idea what to do next with them.

That time could be better well spent developing the actual gameplay, be it quests, jobs, and the systems they belong to. Perhaps as they develop they should only introduce the custom systems they actually need.

[DustyPorViva]

Meh, I don't think it takes that long to develop a system that mimicks default.

[Pelikano]

Default ftw.

[EclipsedAngel]

Clone the source code of the default system so you can have the default system, but at the same time have full control of variables and all.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by EclipsedAngel

Clone the source code of the default system so you can have the default system, but at the same time have full control of variables and all.

That would probably be ideal for the damage/movement systems. Nick system, gani system and such are more easier to use and do cooler things if they're done custom.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by EclipsedAngel

Clone the source code of the default system so you can have the default system, but at the same time have full control of variables and all.

Somehow I doubt Stefan would be willing to give up the code, plus it's probably worked too far in to just easily pull out (e.g. it's in many different parts of the system, not one place).

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Somehow I doubt Stefan would be willing to give up the code, plus it's probably worked too far in to just easily pull out (e.g. it's in many different parts of the system, not one place).

I got it from him quite easily.

[crbgraal]

Originally Posted by EclipsedAngel

Clone the source code of the default system so you can have the default system, but at the same time have full control of variables and all.

The logic for a lot of it is dead simple, really. Movement, for instance. While a player holds down a key they move .5 tiles (8 px) in that direction every .05 seconds. (.6 tiles (9.6 px) with level 3 shield) Priority for facing is right, down, left, up. (as in, if right and down are pressed, you face right.)

Lifting/throwing, the S+A drop menu, and the S+D switch menu are almost as trivial. Hiding is probably just as easy, I just don't have the speed memorized. The Q menu might be tough because if the 'packing' behavior, but that's also something that can be left 'til later, using just a simple grid. Bombs are pretty simple, arrows are pretty simple (and custom systems might mean the reflect would actually work, I don't think that actually ever got fixed in default...), most of the UI is probably simple for people who don't suck at such things, baddies are really stupid and their AI is easy, chests are /trivial/, and, well, that's about it.

Sword hit detection, arrow-on-shield detection, and baddies #$*& sword deflection (I hate that SO MUCH, as a player), on the other hand, might be a little evil.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

you can't properly give players more than 12 hearts

I know you used to be able to go up to at least 20, I think more, in the old days. I remember giving myself heart totals up to at least that in offline level packs back when offline mode was in a dropdown box next to online.

[Pelikano]

Originally Posted by EclipsedAngel

Clone the source code of the default system so you can have the default system, but at the same time have full control of variables and all.

I don't think the default system is written in GS2, not sure tho

[BlackSolider]

All of our problems are solved then. Next thread.

[ffcmike]

There are alot of Pros and Cons both ways with this issue,
I don't believe there is a definate right answer,
it really depends on what you are looking to achieve and how quickly.

If it were just for the sake of getting Core Foundations in place and for the sake of getting back on the Classic Tab asap,
obviously Default would be the answer.

If it were for the sake of having flexible systems that can have specific parts changed at a later point in time without breaking any other parts,
and providing full flexability,
Custom Systems are the answer.

Some things that have to be considered are that Custom Systems have a poor reputation among Players and Developers,
there could be other reasons but i'd guess this is mainly down to attempts to use them either failing or taking too much time, aswell as Developers finding it hard to learn/adapt to them.
But the reason this may occur is in my opinion more down to how well they are made and how well they are documented,
a well made system with decent documentation can be better than working with Default.
Also that there's a conception that Custom appears/feels different to Default, and therefore isn't Classic, this is entirely untrue, a Custom system can be made to feel as if it were entirely Default.

Saying that might make it seem like i'm being one sided towards Custom,
but actually i'd say Default is my own personal preference,
if making a new server was completely down to me i'd definately stick with it,
however having discussed what we'd like to achieve with Storm + WhiteDragon, people I know are going to be scripting towards it on the server, we're likely going with Custom,
although I emphasise that making it feel exactly like Default is a priority.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

we're likely going with Custom

[mistral_007]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

There are alot of Pros and Cons both ways with this issue,
I don't believe there is a definate right answer,
it really depends on what you are looking to achieve and how quickly.

If it were just for the sake of getting Core Foundations in place and for the sake of getting back on the Classic Tab asap,
obviously Default would be the answer.

If it were for the sake of having flexible systems that can have specific parts changed at a later point in time without breaking any other parts,
and providing full flexability,
Custom Systems are the answer.

Some things that have to be considered are that Custom Systems have a poor reputation among Players and Developers,
there could be other reasons but i'd guess this is mainly down to attempts to use them either failing or taking too much time, aswell as Developers finding it hard to learn/adapt to them.
But the reason this may occur is in my opinion more down to how well they are made and how well they are documented,
a well made system with decent documentation can be better than working with Default.
Also that there's a conception that Custom appears/feels different to Default, and therefore isn't Classic, this is entirely untrue, a Custom system can be made to feel as if it were entirely Default.

Saying that might make it seem like i'm being one sided towards Custom,
but actually i'd say Default is my own personal preference,
if making a new server was completely down to me i'd definately stick with it,
however having discussed what we'd like to achieve with Storm + WhiteDragon, people I know are going to be scripting towards it on the server, we're likely going with Custom,
although I emphasise that making it feel exactly like Default is a priority.

If you really decide to do it custom we'll probably have few scripters and a lot of work that no one does, and it will take millions of years.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by mistral_007

If you really decide to do it custom we'll probably have few scripters and a lot of work that no one does, and it will take millions of years.

It won't if the Systems can be finished within a decent amount of times. I don't see why scripters wouldn't come here if the systems are done correctly as well as being documented properly.

The biggest concern for the players should be the hit detection/movement which is supposed to emulate Default.(I don't know the exact details)

[Umat]

Anyone remember the default movement on v1.41 revision 1?
It was great, so if there should be a custom movement, it should replicate that.

[maximus_asinus]

RIP Classic

The server cannot survive while you guys tinker with this and that trying to get a system that feels like default. What we're going to end up with is another debacle of a server. We need the PWA in here ASAP and remove all of you guys.

[Luda]

How dull are you? Holy ****

[Luda]

[LordSquirt]

I like how the poll results correspond with the decision

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by LordSquirt

I like how the poll results correspond with the decision

lol I cringed at the decision regardless of what everyone else thought, but only because custom systems take time to make.

[DustyPorViva]

Given Classic's reputation with custom systems, I don't have my hopes up for this one. Oh well.

[xnervNATx]

[ffcmike]

Most of the scripters here say Custom is the better option if not a Custom System that emulates Default.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Most of the scripters here say Custom is the better option if not a Custom System that emulates Default.

Most of the scripters here haven't sat and watched the very same staff try to replicate default for years and years already.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Most of the scripters here haven't sat and watched the very same staff try to replicate default for years and years already.

Might have something to do with the very same staff not previously attempting to complete an exact replicate of Default before.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Might have something to do with the very same staff not previously attempting to complete an exact replicate of Default before.

You have attempted to "replicate" default several times.

[Hiro]

what exactly would you want to add into the system that isn't presented in default? i don't see what advantages you could use with a scripted system, or why it would be better

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Rufus

You have attempted to "replicate" default several times.

I don't recall ever setting out to make a set of custom systems with the goal of completely replicating Default,
I had taken bits and pieces out of the current systems and replaced them with mechanisms similar to Default but that is a completely different process.

Originally Posted by Hiro

what exactly would you want to add into the system that isn't presented in default? i don't see what advantages you could use with a scripted system, or why it would be better

There are endless possibilities,
for instance, you may want a normal Default like movement as regular player movement but with the ability to easily apply additional modes such as running, slipping on ice, opposite walking, no damage recoil movement, double damage recoil movement etc.
Can't say it's impossible to do such things with Default but they tend to require messy hacks as there are limited controls, or by disabling Default temporarily you'd be relying on a Custom input anyway.

Default also limits you on the basic variables such as HP, Bombs, Arrows etc,
as far as recent tests on Dev show (feel free to correct me if i'm wrong) you can't properly give players more than 12 hearts, or more hearts than their normal heart limit, AP restrictions apply all the time and can prevent full heals, Saints can't be hurt in levels where you'd want them to be hurt etc, all somewhat important things for events, sparring, pking and there's just so many things which require tampering with and you end up spending more time on it.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I don't recall ever setting out to make a set of custom systems with the goal of completely replicating Default,
I had taken bits and pieces out of the current systems and replaced them with mechanisms similar to Default but that is a completely different process

Yeah, you have.

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

And in response to the whole HD argument, we are aware that it's a problem and we're trying to take the most beneficial route to fixing it. We are also aware that fixing it won't be the holy grail of the server and make everyone migrate, hence why we aren't dedicating the whole development team to it.
Rather than arguing about the HD I would suggest waiting for the newer one to be released which should feel more like the default, and possibly talking about other problems on the server.

There's stuff like this all over the place.