External Mac RC?

Novo · #1 08-08-2008, 03:21 AM

Mac requires a native RC.

Virtualizing Windows to use the native RC is way too resource-hogging for a portable. In all dimensions: Disk Space, CPU, and Memory. My system goes to a sluggish speed in these cases. Backing up things is also near impossible (communications from mother os to virtualized os is difficult)

In-game client-rc is immensely slow... And I have time to write an entire line of code before I see the beginning of the line start to form. If I do a typo, I have to move the cursor to the point of interest to work, because waiting for the cursor to finish changing is too long. Also, it was badly designed for user experience. Backing up things is impossible.

Alternatives are to abandon Mac, which I have no interest in doing.

Inverness · #2 08-08-2008, 03:33 AM

BootCamp?

cbk1994 · #3 08-08-2008, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novo

Mac requires a native RC.

Virtualizing Windows to use the native RC is way too resource-hogging for a portable. In all dimensions: Disk Space, CPU, and Memory. My system goes to a sluggish speed in these cases. Backing up things is also near impossible (communications from mother os to virtualized os is difficult)

In-game client-rc is immensely slow... And I have time to write an entire line of code before I see the beginning of the line start to form. If I do a typo, I have to move the cursor to the point of interest to work, because waiting for the cursor to finish changing is too long. Also, it was badly designed for user experience. Backing up things is impossible.

Alternatives are to abandon Mac, which I have no interest in doing.

The Intel version of Graal, with external windows, is waaaaay better. However, it's still not as good as the Windows RC.

I'm with you, but unfortunately, Stefan has said Windows won't be getting offline RC updates, which means that Mac will NEVER get any kind of offline tools.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

BootCamp?

He wants a Mac RC, not a way to run Windows

I have to use Boot Camp to develop, unfortunately.

Inverness · #4 08-08-2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I'm with you, but unfortunately, Stefan has said Windows won't be getting offline RC updates, which means that Mac will NEVER get any kind of offline tools.

This is true, the only thing Mac will be getting is the external scripted windows when they're released in 2010.

excaliber7388 · #5 08-08-2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

This is true, the only thing Mac will be getting is the external scripted windows when they're released in 2010.

Which, since they're still slow, are utterly useless.

cbk1994 · #6 08-08-2008, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

Which, since they're still slow, are utterly useless.

They aren't TOO bad, but they need some improvement.

Novo · #7 08-08-2008, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

BootCamp?

BootCamp is worse than Parallels... Not only do you require more disk space to run it, you're locked out of all your music / apps / settings. Also... I'm a bit windows-claustrophobic. I just feel like I'm being contained in Windows, and it's a real icky feeling... It makes me not want to program at all.

excaliber7388 · #8 08-08-2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novo

Mac requires a native RC.

Virtualizing Windows to use the native RC is way too resource-hogging for a portable. In all dimensions: Disk Space, CPU, and Memory. My system goes to a sluggish speed in these cases. Backing up things is also near impossible (communications from mother os to virtualized os is difficult)

In-game client-rc is immensely slow... And I have time to write an entire line of code before I see the beginning of the line start to form. If I do a typo, I have to move the cursor to the point of interest to work, because waiting for the cursor to finish changing is too long. Also, it was badly designed for user experience. Backing up things is impossible.

Alternatives are to abandon Mac, which I have no interest in doing.

Other alternative is to abandon Graal

Don't hold your breath. People have been asking for a Mac RC, Gani editor, and, most of all, level editor, for years, despite the fact that Apple has a site dedicated to Graal

Inverness · #9 08-08-2008, 06:25 AM

Excaliber, please learn what about what you're talking about before you start sprouting off incorrect information about it.

Chris has beta tested the external windows for Mac, not you obviously.

excaliber7388 · #10 08-08-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

Excaliber, please learn what about what you're talking about before you start sprouting off incorrect information about it.

Chris has beta tested the external windows for Mac, not you obviously.

And found them to be slower than the windows version, thus flawed.

Inverness · #11 08-08-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

And found them to be slower than the windows version, thus flawed.

Sucks for you then.

excaliber7388 · #12 08-08-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

Sucks for you then.

Which has pretty much been the reply to Mac players from cyberjoueurs.

Even though we still pay the same amount

DustyPorViva · #13 08-08-2008, 07:02 AM

Stefan just don't do external tools no more. Just gotta suck it up, I guess.

excaliber7388 · #14 08-08-2008, 11:09 PM

Java wouldn't bee too bad. At least it would be a dedicated application and external

Part of the problem is that the scripted ones also rely on an internet connection (and a fast one at that), which I rarely have at school.
The main reason I stopped paying them for gold/vip and a playerworld was because these tools ran horrifically slow on my school's network. Not worth the money if I can only sit back for a minute ever time I try to open an npc to place a tile.

The scripted tools really bite, they aren't the answer. We need real, native applications. I've had some requests to start developing again, and I would in a heartbeat, if I knew there would be some good dev tools I could use. But the last time I tried to use the Mac rc and level editor, it was terrible. Terrible enough for me to quit graal and leave Dark Rival (which I had worked on for over a year) to rot.

DustyPorViva · #15 08-08-2008, 11:45 PM

I like how it seems to be only GST that support scripted tools.

Skyld · #16 08-09-2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I like how it seems to be only GST that support scripted tools.

That's 'cause we actually care to properly weigh the benefits of them.

I've said time and time over if there are big problems with the Scripted RC, to post it in the thread. How else are we meant to know?

excaliber7388 · #17 08-09-2008, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I like how it seems to be only GST that support scripted tools.

Because they took a part in making it.
Like how that play you did in second grade was the ****, but when you watch the video later, you ask why so many people fell off the stage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyld

That's 'cause we actually care to properly weigh the benefits of them.

I've said time and time over if there are big problems with the Scripted RC, to post it in the thread. How else are we meant to know?

I could not use them on my school network, they're that slow and therefore, useless.
I'm getting so tired of people telling me how great they are. I abandoned a game because it was so difficult to use the tools. They gui for them is alright, but the speed was terrible because of a) No intel client, and b), bad connection.
I haven't done any dev since then, because I CAN'T without a staff position.

So, here's the pros and cons:
External one: use any time, no lag, no internet connection, no staff possition needed, could be cross platform if done right,
Scripted one: lag, depends on internet connection, you must be staff to use, cross platform

Which one is better

Stop being so biased. I had no reason to dislike the scripted one. I was like "finally, progress!". But when I tried to use it, I became disgusted, and, eventually, quit Graal for a while, and developing altogether.

But I'm sure I was just imagining that.

LoneAngelIbesu · #18 08-09-2008, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

Scripted one: lag, depends on internet connection, you must be staff to use, cross platform

I'm not 100% sure about this, but wouldn't it be possible to create .NW files from a GUI (aka, scripted level editor), then save it to /scriptfiles/ or something? You wouldn't be editing levels on a server, though. You'd just be drawing on a GUI that would convert what you've drawn in to the .NW format. If that's possible, then you wouldn't need to be staff to use a scripted level editor, or even a scripted GANI editor.

cbk1994 · #19 08-09-2008, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

I'm not 100pecent sure about this, but wouldn't it be possible to create .NW files from a GUI (aka, scripted level editor), then save it to /scriptfiles/ or something? You wouldn't be editing levels on a server, though. You'd just be drawing on a GUI that would convert what you've drawn in to the .NW format. If that's possible, then you wouldn't need to be staff to use a scripted level editor, or even a scripted GANI editor.

I know Zero (zokemon) plans on trying to get his added to the client so it opens when you press F4, and if you are staff, you can edit the server's levels. Otherwise, you can save to your hard disk.

DustyPorViva · #20 08-09-2008, 12:18 AM

I don't think I'm biased against it at all, I've weighed the pros and cons just as much as you all. I've posted many times that I can appreciate all the work that has gone in to it, but I just don't see it ever being better than external.

Inverness · #21 08-09-2008, 01:09 AM

If your school network is slow then IT is useless not Graal's tools.

excaliber7388 · #22 08-09-2008, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

If your school network is slow then IT is useless not Graal's tools.

They depend on a network. Does your level editor?
Now, the RC would be faster if it was native. I found less lag on the windows version on my school network (almost none), and a better gui than on the Mac version.

Inverness · #23 08-09-2008, 01:19 AM

When you buy a Mac you accept the responsibility that you are not a priority when it comes to game developers.

So stop whining about it and get BootCamp or so.

I'm sure Stefan is quite aware of the plight of Mac users, but its just not a priority to him. External scripted windows are a better universal solution that external applications so that is what he is doing.

You might get a more strait-forward response from Stefan if you simply sent him a forum PM with your main point. If Stefan responds in the negative then it should be over then.

DustyPorViva · #24 08-09-2008, 02:25 AM

I think Zero's editor departs too far away from the external editor's interface and functions to be appealing to older level makers.

cbk1994 · #25 08-09-2008, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I think Zero's editor departs too far away from the external editor's interface and functions to be appealing to older level makers.

I'd prefer a level editor with the same interface, just revamped.

However, I'm not going to judge it until I see it.

excaliber7388 · #26 08-09-2008, 02:51 AM

And I've ran the level editor under VMware fusion before. It's still pretty slow, but better than the online ones. It also comes with the problem of having to run windows. I recently shrank the vmware file to less than 7 gb, just because I never use it.

A quick fix might be him working out compatibility issues, so you could download it, and use something like crossover to run. Again, far from perfect (and people will have to buy expensive software), but it's still another option (I don't think it's any better than the online tools though).
We need a dedicated client. I don't have the talent to make one yet, and even if I did, why would I want to put effort to help out a company that won't even appreciate my contribution?

Kristi · #27 08-09-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

..crossover to run. Again, far from perfect (and people will have to buy expensive software), but it's still another option (I don't think it's any better than the online tools though)

Crossover is just a marketed version of wine, which is free.

excaliber7388 · #28 08-09-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristi

Crossover is just a marketed version of wine, which is free.

Not to be rude, but duh.

Kristi · #29 08-09-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

(and people will have to buy expensive software)

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

Not to be rude, but duh.

I stated it was free because you stated you had to buy expensive software. You just contradicted yourself, and then acted arrogant on top of it. Good going epic fail.

DrakilorP2P · #30 08-09-2008, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristi

epic fail.

Epic fail meme is in your thread, failing epicly.

excaliber7388 · #31 08-10-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristi

I stated it was free because you stated you had to buy expensive software. You just contradicted yourself, and then acted arrogant on top of it. Good going epic fail.

Wine support is even harder to work with than crossover.
I haven't gotten graal to work on either.

Inverness · #32 08-09-2008, 02:53 AM

Sorry to derail your topic Novo, but I think the question has been answered. Stefan is focusing on external scripted windows not a separate application.

Novo · #33 08-09-2008, 03:17 AM

I had my answer a long time ago, Inverness: "If you want an external RC, make one yourself."

Inverness · #34 08-09-2008, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novo

I had my answer a long time ago, Inverness: "If you want an external RC, make one yourself."

You could make one yourself but Stefan isn't going to tell you how to connect to Graal with it.

excaliber7388 · #35 08-09-2008, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novo

I had my answer a long time ago, Inverness: "If you want an external RC, make one yourself."

And once you make it, I'm sure some loophole will make it property of Graal Online

cbk1994 · #36 08-09-2008, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

And once you make it, I'm sure some loophole will make it property of Graal Online

I hope so, then he can sue them.

DustyPorViva · #37 08-09-2008, 04:01 AM

Er... Robin made an open source level editor in Flash and Stefan didn't like that because of 'security' reasons or something.

I can only imagine his reaction to someone making an RC.

cbk1994 · #38 08-09-2008, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Er... Robin made an open source level editor in Flash and Stefan didn't like that because of 'security' reasons or something.

I can only imagine his reaction to someone making an RC.

I don't think he made the whole editor, just the viewer.

DustyPorViva · #39 08-09-2008, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I don't think he made the whole editor, just the viewer.

Which just goes to show, if Stefan finds THAT a security risk, can you only imagine what he'll think of an RC?

Novo · #40 08-09-2008, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Which just goes to show, if Stefan finds THAT a security risk, can you only imagine what he'll think of an RC?

I meant that...

I'll never have my External RC... As I see too sad that I'd have to make my developer tools to develop for free.