Rule help

[xAndrewx]

I have a question and since this thread below is closed I decided to make a new thread for peoples opinions.
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=49824

Not to mention any names, but recently I was involved with a server where one staff member deleted some contents of a server. I read the first page of the thread above and the last one, I didn't read the other pages because something this important should be on the front page.

Well anyways, what is the penalty of someone deleting parts of a server? I've known two people, one who got away with it and one who didn't.

I for one believe an investigation is needed. On one case where the person didn't get convicted there wasn't a full investigation; instead a higher global said it was legal for deleting parts of a server.

On the other case, there was an investigation but one what was done very poor; they asked staff members what happened even though none were online at the time and with that they decided to globally ban the individual without confronting him. When the individual did come forward and ask what happened he got two different replies from two global staff members.

So, what I'm asking is what do the PWA (?) or whoever do when someone deletes a server? And how come several people get away with deleting a server and so many do not?

Opinions please.

Note: I would've sent a PM but I speak for many when I say no-one knows exactly what happens.

[Gambet]

No one gets away with deleting a server o_O.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

No one gets away with deleting a server o_O.

He isn't refering to the deletion of a whole server...note:

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Not to mention any names, but recently I was involved with a server where one staff member deleted some contents of a server.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

He isn't refering to the deletion of a whole server...note:

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

So, what I'm asking is what do the PWA (?) or whoever do when someone deletes a server? And how come several people get away with deleting a server and so many do not?

.....................

Delete a server = Global Bannable Offense
Why do some get away with it? = They don't
Delete content on server = Depends on whose it is and why they removed it
Why some can do it and others can't = Depends on the reasoning and the creator of the content

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

.....................

Delete a server = Global Bannable Offense
Why do some get away with it? = They don't
Delete content on server = Depends on whose it is and why they removed it
Why some can do it and others can't = Depends on the reasoning and the creator of the content

I want a clear answer on this question from the PWA/Stefan (in public), as I have heard different.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I want a clear answer on this question from the PWA/Stefan (in public), as I have heard different.

You've already spoken to Stefan privately, so you should know this answer.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

You've already spoken to Stefan privately, so you should know this answer.

No, I have not
Stefan will only give me one short answer, but will never discuss anything with me, and anyway, I want a public, clear answer/rule on this. I am tired of people skirting the rules, and people can just lie and say "Well, I removed this because it wasn't working right" or "I removed this because I made it, but I didn't like the way it worked", or "I removed this, because it was my personal script/level/GFX, and since I work here, I decided I dont want to use it" (even though the server is using it at the time) then quits the same day or soon after....that is skirting the rules, abusing a loophole in the rules. If this is acceptable, then I feel sorry for the PW's who hire staff, and I suggest that NO ONE be given rights to anything, especially NC, because staff would have the right to quickly remove content, make up a story, then quit...leaving the PW in a bind.

In my opinion, after content is uploaded and in use on a PW, especially when Staff made the content for the server, then the Manager should make the decision as to whether or not the content is to be deleted for whatever reason. If the Manager does not agree, then the content should be left on the server...this would make it so staff cannot remove stuff because they are quitting, and make up reasons in doing so, because the Manager must approve of it first.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Gambet

You've already spoken to Stefan privately, so you should know this answer.

What is said in private could be different in public.

[maximus_asinus]

If people backed up everything every couple of days, things like this would be a minor problem.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

If people backed up everything every couple of days, things like this would be a minor problem.

That isn't the point...

[WanDaMan]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Delete content on server = Depends on whose it is and why they removed it
Why some can do it and others can't = Depends on the reasoning and the creator of the content

Well, you recently deleted contents of a server and you got away with it. However, when I deleted some content on a server what were illegal I got globally banned.

Well, I didn't get asked why I'd done it, instead I got globally banned. Funny, I guess you just have to know people in high places

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

If people backed up everything every couple of days, things like this would be a minor problem.

..

[Chicken_l33t]

Originally Posted by Gambet

No one gets away with deleting a server o_O.

Lol, you're a bit optimistic.
I beg to differ.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

Well, you recently deleted contents of a server and you got away with it. However, when I deleted some content on a server what were illegal I got globally banned.

Well, I didn't get asked why I'd done it, instead I got globally banned. Funny, I guess you just have to know people in high places

Really? What content did I remove that is not on NP right now? I gave jady back ups to the GWI and she uploaded it. That's all I removed besides my own personal npc's which no one used besides myself.

[Curt1zzle]

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

Well, you recently deleted contents of a server and you got away with it. However, when I deleted some content on a server what were illegal I got globally banned.

Well, I didn't get asked why I'd done it, instead I got globally banned. Funny, I guess you just have to know people in high places

lol.

Sorry about that, ol' buddy.

[WanDaMan]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Really? What content did I remove that is not on NP right now? I gave jady back ups to the GWI and she uploaded it. That's all I removed besides my own personal npc's which no one used besides myself.

I'll do a 'Gambet'; I'll delete parts of a server and then give the administrators back ups of what I deleted! I'm sure they'll understand

Could someone answer Andrew's question? Is it legal or illegal to delete parts of a server (I'd like someone with power to give an answer).

It's cool Curtis, in a way it open'd my eyes. Thankyou

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

Is it legal or illegal to delete parts of a server (I'd like someone with power to give an answer).

It is dependant on a case by case review. It depends on the content deleted, amount of content, type of server, authority and a few other things. The majoriy of which, however, end up in a punishment.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Spark910

It is dependant on a case by case review. It depends on the content deleted, amount of content, type of server, authority and a few other things. The majoriy of which, however, end up in a punishment.

I would've figured this be obvious, but it's best to have rules written down.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

I would've figured this be obvious, but it's best to have rules written down.

It isn't obvious, and it isn't fair....

In my opinion, Developement staff are able to skirt the pwa rules, deletion of material is left wide open for staff to remove content, and make up reasons as to why they removed it, even if they quit soon after. It leaves it wide open for staff to plan on quitting, delete content for whatever reason, then wait a day or 2 to quit, or longer perhaps just to make it look good. It would be better if the Manager approved of the removal of content before it is removed. I dont want working content removed off of my server, that we are using just because the staff can. I want a valid reason for the content being removed, and I want to make sure it is valid BEFORE the content is removed. Just saying (let's say scripts were removed), that "this script was removed because it isn't working" to me is not a valid reason, as it can be fixed to work, if not by the person who made the script, maybe by another scripter. I dont want content removed, and then having to fix all the problems afterwards because of that content removed just because they CAN. It isn't fair to allow that hardship on PW's. Once content is uploaded, it should belong to that PW unless the Manager wishes it to be removed. If you leave it wide open like it is, you are asking for trouble.

To Wan...this thread isn't suppose to be personal, nor an attack against any one person...this thread is to try to get much needed info for playerworld staff, please dont make it personal

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Gambet

I would've figured this be obvious, but it's best to have rules written down.

Oh, but it is written down!

Originally Posted by groc

GraalOnline reserves the right to make special-case adjustments to its policies and the steps it takes concerning violation of these policies.

*evil smirk*

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

It isn't obvious, and it isn't fair....

Oh, really? So you want it so NO ONE is allowed to delete ANYTHING off of a server unless THE MANAGER gives them PERMISSION? That's ridiculous.

Why?

Well, then I guess the whole Zido and Rai thing would've been perfectly legal, and we would have no more NP right now.

Besides that, managers are not on all of the time. Scripters need to add/remove things most of the time. If the manager is not around, then they have to wait possible hours until they can continue working so they can get permission from a manager to remove something? That's ridiculous.

Keep back-ups of everything on the server, so if someone does remove one or two things, you can easily back it up.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Oh, really? So you want it so NO ONE is allowed to delete ANYTHING off of a server unless THE MANAGER gives them PERMISSION? That's ridiculous.

Why?

Well, then I guess the whole Zido and Rai thing would've been perfectly legal, and we would have no more NP right now.

Besides that, managers are not on all of the time. Scripters need to add/remove things most of the time. If the manager is not around, then they have to wait possible hours until they can continue working so they can get permission from a manager to remove something? That's ridiculous.

Keep back-ups of everything on the server, so if someone does remove one or two things, you can easily back it up.

You a purposely missing the entire point....

Does this rule not apply to all PW's because it is in the "playerworld revival" part of the pwa rules?

Any files uploaded into the file-manager becomes the sole property of Graalonline. When a player works for a playerworld as a 'Staff' member all files given to the manager to upload, or uploaded themselves, becomes property of Graalonline. Temporary usage rights (until shutdown of a playerworld) is given to the playerworld manager while the playerworld is online. This right of usage is terminated when the playerworld is shut down. If someone wants to use any of the files again (i.e.: Playerworld Revive Project) Graal and its representatives must be contacted before they can be uploaded again. To gain usage rights to any Playerworld previously online, the individual must contact Graal's representative and the last active manager(s) to gain permission and usage rights to the files of a shutdown Playerworld.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

You a purposely missing the entire point....

No, I'm not. The current rule is fine as it is. Your rule would ruin servers. You're expecting globals to handle EVERY problem a playerworld may have? So if a staff member removes one level, then you're going to contact the globals for it? That's rather ridiculous. As a playerworld manager, you SHOULD have backups to the entire server, so replacing one or two levels/scripts should not be a problem for you. Of course, if you have not been acting responsibly as a manager, then you probably wouldn't have backups, and then whose fault is that?

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

No, I'm not. The current rule is fine as it is. Your rule would ruin servers. You're expecting globals to handle EVERY problem a playerworld may have? So if a staff member removes one level, then you're going to contact the globals for it? That's rather ridiculous. As a playerworld manager, you SHOULD have backups to the entire server, so replacing one or two levels/scripts should not be a problem for you. Of course, if you have not been acting responsibly as a manager, then you probably wouldn't have backups, and then whose fault is that?

So, you are basically saying that it should be ok for a staff member to remove their content then quit because the Manager should have backups? You are still missing the entire point, it doesnt matter whether a person has backups, the fact is people should not be allowed to remove working content without the managers approval, that will have to be added back from backups because things arent working without it

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

So, you are basically saying that it should be ok for a staff member to remove their content then quit because the Manager should have backups? You are still missing the entire point, it doesnt matter whether a person has backups, the fact is people should not be allowed to remove working content without the managers approval, that will have to be added back from backups because things arent working without it

Did I not already explain the flaws in your system? Actually, I should ask...Did you even read what I posted? I guess not.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Did I not already explain the flaws in your system? Actually, I should ask...Did you even read what I posted? I guess not.

Haha. You always get like this when you're backed into a corner. "I ALREADY PROVED YOU WRONG, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING!!!!"

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Did I not already explain the flaws in your system? Actually, I should ask...Did you even read what I posted? I guess not.

No, you didn't explain the flaws in what I posted, you missed the point of what I posted entirely.

You know, Gambet...this is not an arguement between you and I. In fact, this is not an arguement at all. You are not a global, you are not a pwa member. This thread is for the purpose of CLEARLY stating a rule on the removal of content on a server so that people cannot skirt the rules such that has been done over and over. Some get in trouble, and some who do the same thing, do not get in trouble. I am not going to argue with you because it completely defeats the purpose of the thread, especially beings that you ARE NOT A GLOBAL.

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Haha. You always get like this when you're backed into a corner. "I ALREADY PROVED YOU WRONG, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING!!!!"

If the person I was speaking to would show signs that they read it and understood it, then I guess I wouldn't have to, now would I? Or, would you like me to repeat myself 100 times?

Originally Posted by Darlene159

You know, Gambet...this is not an arguement between you and I. In fact, this is not an arguement at all. You are not a global, you are not a pwa member. This thread is for the purpose of CLEARLY stating a rule on the removal of content on a server so that people cannot skirt the rules such that has been done over and over. Some get in trouble, and some who do the same thing, do not get in trouble. I am not going to argue with you because it completely defeats the purpose of the thread, especially beings that you ARE NOT A GLOBAL.

You don't need to be a global to know the rules. Besides, I do believe Spark already answered your question. It seems you keep pushing it because you are not hearing the answer you oh so wished/hoped for.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

If the person I was speaking to would show signs that they read it and understood it, then I guess I wouldn't have to

But you're not actually countering her points. You're just saying that you are.

Yes, it's true that managers can make backups. But how is that relevant? Deleting large quantities of work can only be an attempt at hindering the playerworld. Are we in agreement on this point?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

But you're not actually countering her points. You're just saying that you are.

Yes, it's true that managers can make backups. But how is that relevant? Deleting large quantities of work can only be an attempt at hindering the playerworld. Are we in agreement on this point?

Moonie acts like this is not personal, but it is. Moonie knows exactly what I'm talking about, but I won't discuss things publically.



In what Moonie is looking for, the quantity that was deleted was a mere 3 or 4 things, in which all 3 or 4 things were added back anyways.

In your case, Kai, then yes, I agree.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

In what Moonie is looking for, the quantity that was deleted was a mere 3 or 4 things, in which all 3 or 4 things were added back anyways

Why were they deleted?

In your case, Kai, then yes, I agree

So should people not be punished for attempting to hinder playerworld development?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Why were they deleted?

Already said I wouldn't get into this publically.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So should people not be punished for attempting to hinder playerworld development?

There are always reasons for removal of content. Whether they be good or bad, there are always reasons.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Already said I wouldn't get into this publically

Then why are you telling me how many files were deleted?

There are always reasons for removal of content. Whether they be good or bad, there are always reasons.

We already agreed on the reason. And it wasn't good.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

Moonie acts like this is not personal, but it is. Moonie knows exactly what I'm talking about, but I won't discuss things publically.

It is about a rule that I want clarified, you are making it personal...all my posts are generally speaking, and are things happening on other PW's

Originally Posted by Gambet

In what Moonie is looking for, the quantity that was deleted was a mere 3 or 4 things, in which all 3 or 4 things were added back anyways.

Again, you are making it personal, when I was generalizing, it also should not matter how much was removed, and I wont reply on your personal remarks about NP.
So, you are saying that if it is only 3 or 4 things removed, then the person quit, then gave it back the next day, or a few hours, or whatever that it is ok?
Is that like "I will delete a few things, and make them suffer for a little while, then give it back"? See, this is why I want the rule clarified, because that is a bunch of BS...

Originally Posted by Gambet

There are always reasons for removal of content. Whether they be good or bad, there are always reasons.

So, as long as there is a reason, no matter what it is, it is ok?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

It is about a rule that I want clarified, you are making it personal...all my posts are generally speaking, and are things happening on other PW's


Again, you are making it personal, when I was generalizing, it also should not matter how much was removed, and I wont reply on your personal remarks about NP.
So, you are saying that if it is only 3 or 4 things removed, then the person quit, then gave it back the next day, or a few hours, or whatever that it is ok?
Is that like "I will delete a few things, and make them suffer for a little while, then give it back"? See, this is why I want the rule clarified, because that is a bunch of BS...
So, as long as there is a reason, no matter what it is, it is ok?

Spark already explained this...

Originally Posted by Spark910

It depends on the content deleted........(then more stuff here)

Originally Posted by Darlene159

So, as long as there is a reason, no matter what it is, it is ok?

No, if the reason is bad, then things can be done accordingly. If the reason is somewhat valid, then backups could be supplied (if needed) and then life moves on.

[Darlene159]

lol, Gambet
your replies simply means that staff should say things to cover themselves, in my opinion

Spark didn't explian anything, his reply left the rule wide open, and left big loopholes.

Originally Posted by Gambet

No, if the reason is bad, then things can be done accordingly. If the reason is somewhat valid, then backups could be supplied (if needed) and then life moves on.

Somewhat valid? What the heck is this? A loophole? Skirting the rules? If someone has no completely valid reason to remove several things, and then quit, just to leave the pw to put backups up of working content, it should be against the rules

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

lol, Gambet
your replies simply means that you say things to cover yourself

Spark didn't explian anything, his reply left the rule wide open, and left big loopholes.

His reply was quite clear. It requires a case, everything he said would have to be examined, and then a decision be made.

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Somewhat valid? What the heck is this? A loophole? Skirting the rules? If someone has no completely valid reason to remove several things, and then quit, just to leave the pw to put backups up of working content, it should be against the rules

A loophole? Uh no. THERE ARE valid reasoning for removing content. Whether YOU plan on believe the person or not is up to YOU (on a personal level, I mean). If the globals do not see things the same way you do, then that's just how things are. Somehow you have to take everything so negatively.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

A loophole? Uh no. THERE ARE valid reasoning for removing content. Whether YOU plan on believe the person or not is up to YOU (on a personal level, I mean). If the globals do not see things the same way you do, then that's just how things are. Somehow you have to take everything so negatively.

No, Gambet...there is not always valid reasons for removing content...
Tell me what would be valid reasons in your opinion?

[Gambet]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

No, Gambet...there is not always valid reasons for removing content...
Tell me what would be valid reasons in your opinion?

Darlene, I said this already.......


There are always reasons, whether they are good (valid) or bad (not valid).



My opinion on valid reasoning is not an issue here, so it would be irrelevant.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gambet

My opinion on valid reasoning is not an issue here, so it would be irrelevant.

Of course......