Back (kind of) with some images of things i have been doing..

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by LordZen

level designers cannot make good levels without at least half way decent tiles. A level designer relies on an artist
[...]
A pixel artist relies on no such thing

None of that is disputed. Nor, however, is it relevant to the debate. We're talking about whether or not tiling is inherently easier than freeform image creation.

[LordZen]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

None of that is disputed. Nor, however, is it relevant to the debate. We're talking about whether or not tiling is inherently easier than freeform image creation.

?

My argument was that level design is inherently easier because it relies on the skill and creativity of another person's "freeform image creation" to even look decent...

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by LordZen

My argument was that level design is inherently easier because it relies on the skill and creativity of another person's "freeform image creation" to even look decent...

Right. So both of those are inherently easier than programming, too? Because you can't do either without the skill and creativity of another person's programming.

[Soul-Blade]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Right. So both of those are inherently easier than programming, too? Because you can't do either without the skill and creativity of another person's programming.

Sorry to tell you, but graphic design has been around way before programming. I know, it may come as a shock...
Graphics are not dependant on programming. Anyway, this branch off in the discussion could lead off to a variety of other comments...this is sort of a chicken or the egg type of discussion.

[Nitkizi]

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

Sorry to tell you, but graphic design has been around way before programming. I know, it may come as a shock...
Graphics are not dependant on programming. Anyway, this branch off in the discussion could lead off to a variety of other comments...this is sort of a chicken or the egg type of discussion.

It has? Then did the programs magically program themselves? Unless you mean art in general and not just 'graphic design' as in art made on computers and such.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

Sorry to tell you, but graphic design has been around way before programming

We're not talking about generic graphic design. We're talking about making tilesets. Does that precede programming?

Read -> Think -> Post

[Soul-Blade]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

We're not talking about generic graphic design. We're talking about making tilesets. Does that precede programming?

Read -> Think -> Post

Dude, we're talking about generic design. Any competant pixel artist/graphics artist can paint rather nice if they learn about the tools. They have the mind and the ability; all they would need is the knowledge of how to use the tools. So yes, we are talking about generic graphic design. If you know how to paint, you can make a tileset after you become familiar with the tools. Graphics and programming are also rather intertwined when you think about it. Do you think programming can exist without some form of graphic?


Read -> Think -> Post

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

Dude, we're talking about generic design

Actually, we (Zen and I) were talking about making tilesets. You only became involved in the argument later, when you missed the point and started ranting at me.

Zen's argument was that since level-makers rely on tileset-makers, their job must inherently be easier. He seems to be working from the assumption that the earlier state in any such chain is always more difficult, but this is inaccurate. Painters rely on paint-makers. Is making paint inherently more difficult than using it? Of course not. This highlights the flaw in Zen's reasoning.

Read -> Think -> Post

And you claim to be creative? Hohoho.

[Soul-Blade]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Actually, we (Zen and I) were talking about making tilesets. You only became involved in the argument later, when you missed the point and started ranting at me.

Zen's argument was that since level-makers rely on tileset-makers, their job must inherently be easier. He seems to be working from the assumption that the earlier state in any such chain is always more difficult, but this is inaccurate. Painters rely on paint-makers. Is making paint inherently more difficult than using it? Of course not. This highlights the flaw in Zen's reasoning.

Hmmmmmm I agree with your reasoning on Zen aside from one aspect. Level design and pixel art are both graphical in nature. They come from the same genre. Graphics vs Programming are entirely different and require a different kind of mind to do them. Some times people can have a mind that works for both, but regardless they are usually not able to work in harmony. For example, you are a good scripter but terrible at graphics. Most graphics people here are good at graphics but terrible scripters. You can't claim one thing is harder then another if they aren't of the same type. Graphics design and level design are of the same type, so a somewhat reasonable comparison can be made.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

And you claim to be creative? Hohoho.

I couldn't resist. I was actually laughing at the reply, I just had to do it. I don't claim to be creative either...I do claim to think unlike most people, and if you could talk to me in life for a few minutes you would quickly realize this fact.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

Hmmmmmm I agree with your reasoning on Zen aside from one aspect. Level design and pixel art are both graphical in nature. They come from the same genre. Graphics vs Programming are entirely different

So what's the amended rule?

"If A is kinda similar to B, and A depends on B, A is inherently easier"?

I want a clear, concise, generalised summary of your reasoning. The above seems to be what we have so far, but it wouldn't surprise me if you had a few more amendments on standby.

Is writing a compiler inherently more difficult than writing a program with that compiler?

I couldn't resist

My advice to you: Become more resistant. To making bad comebacks.

[Robin]

Coming back to the original post:

I like your church level. What did you use to design this level?

[LordZen]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Actually, we (Zen and I) were talking about making tilesets. You only became involved in the argument later, when you missed the point and started ranting at me.

Zen's argument was that since level-makers rely on tileset-makers, their job must inherently be easier. He seems to be working from the assumption that the earlier state in any such chain is always more difficult, but this is inaccurate. Painters rely on paint-makers. Is making paint inherently more difficult than using it? Of course not. This highlights the flaw in Zen's reasoning.

No, my statement wasnt meant to be so generalized. My point was that a level maker's medium was art, itself. He's using somebody else's art to make his own. I dont have the same respect for the person who "made a level" as I do for the person who "made that level possible" through their own forsight and creativity.

When you see a well made level, say on Zenkou ( ), do you think "wow the LAT who made this level is very talented" or do you think "wow the GAT who made the tiles and trees etc on this level is very talented"?

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by LordZen

My point was that a level maker's medium was art, itself. He's using somebody else's art to make his own. I dont have the same respect for the person who "made a level" as I do for the person who "made that level possible"

Okay. So make a general statement about jobs and how easy they are, then show that it applies universally.

Otherwise you're just ad-hoc-ing.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by LordZen

When you see a well made level, say on Zenkou ( ), do you think "wow the LAT who made this level is very talented" or do you think "wow the GAT who made the tiles and trees etc on this level is very talented"?

Both...The graphics artist deserves credit for making the tiles, and the levels artist deserves equal credit for using those tiles to create a really good level (assuming it is good). I dont think one is better than the other, they just need different tools

[LordZen]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Okay. So make a general statement about jobs and how easy they are, then show that it applies universally.

Otherwise you're just ad-hoc-ing.

?

I was not trying to make a maxim which could be applied to a broad spectrum of anything, so how would making a general statement about an unrelated subject further my point?

My subject is strictly in regards to tiling a level versus pixeling the tiles used to make the level, ad hoc or not.