New Graal Website

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Devil

Clearly for the past 10+ years it's been a constant failure.

Nah, failure began after 2003 imo.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Then leave. You won't be missed.

I think that as customer, you have certain rights.

If you regularly visit a shop, build up a friendship with some employes and other regular customers and then suddently the shop starts to sell broken stuff, every normal person would change the shop or atleast send back bad shipments.

Would you enter the shop like this: hey guys, your last shipments were very bad, can I help out here for a while?

For graal we have no alternative. There is no similar game, yet we cannot correct or repair every management failure with our enthusiasm. In the end, we cannot make the decisions which would be necessary to save this game - of course you can contribute, but like you can see:
Important and good suggestions are likely to be ignored, but you can still waste your time by adding content for no players. Cool!

[DustyPorViva]

I think at this stage we'd be better off with a standard header, left navigation field, and main column made with nothing but CSS(no images).

[Hiro]

i think it's ludicrous that this isn't a suggestion thread for what should be on the website as made by the hard working employees of CJ, not a suggestion thread asking players to create the website for them. i'm sure i could create an HTML-site that gets the real point across of what graal is without any fancy buttons or navigation, and it would sell graal better than the current site, but that isn't the point - this is CJ's game, CJ's website, CJ's production, not ours. if they have time to create games for the ipod and other 3rd party enterprises, then they have time to create a quality website for graal. if we're expected to put time into the game "for the fun of it" so should they be expected to help out for fun of it, in addition for the money being paid by the customers

and what is there to be better about the website anyhow? sure it's confusing, but it's a good example of the disarray that is graal currently - we don't even have a solid answer for whether this is a MMORPG or a development platform, and saying "it's both" just confuses people - they want content to play on and people to talk **** too, the minority wants development tools

frankly, if we have time to put effort into making the website better, then we should be putting that time into creating some quality content to show graal's good qualities before we even get to fixing the website or advertising the game. and don't give me some bull**** excuse about how "projects are coming along" and "people have other projects to work on" or that "this is more important so we can get more developers first" because that isn't what will happen. developers don't get drawn into a platform because of a fancy website; they get drawn in by the quality of the games presented by the platform. likewise for players, they don't play WOW because it has an awesome fancy-looking website, they play because of the content on the servers

my god; graal is going in the wrong direction constantly, and the lack of any leadership and support from CJ is just ridiculous

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Hiro

i think it's ludicrous that this isn't a suggestion thread for what should be on the website as made by the hard working employees of CJ, not a suggestion thread asking players to create the website for them. i'm sure i could create an HTML-site that gets the real point across of what graal is without any fancy buttons or navigation, and it would sell graal better than the current site, but that isn't the point - this is CJ's game, CJ's website, CJ's production, not ours. if they have time to create games for the ipod and other 3rd party enterprises, then they have time to create a quality website for graal. if we're expected to put time into the game "for the fun of it" so should they be expected to help out for fun of it, in addition for the money being paid by the customers

and what is there to be better about the website anyhow? sure it's confusing, but it's a good example of the disarray that is graal currently - we don't even have a solid answer for whether this is a MMORPG or a development platform, and saying "it's both" just confuses people - they want content to play on and people to talk **** too, the minority wants development tools

frankly, if we have time to put effort into making the website better, then we should be putting that time into creating some quality content to show graal's good qualities before we even get to fixing the website or advertising the game. and don't give me some bull**** excuse about how "projects are coming along" and "people have other projects to work on" or that "this is more important so we can get more developers first" because that isn't what will happen. developers don't get drawn into a platform because of a fancy website; they get drawn in by the quality of the games presented by the platform. likewise for players, they don't play WOW because it has an awesome fancy-looking website, they play because of the content on the servers

my god; graal is going in the wrong direction constantly, and the lack of any leadership and support from CJ is just ridiculous

Well, you should understand that this isn't coming from CJ, this is coming from me and I am not part of CJ, I am just part of Graal. I do not consider myself to be an employee of CJ, nor should my announcements be considered. They are simply an announcement from Graal administration, not CJ, and they are not necessarily approved by Stefan/unixmad.

Also, I don't think you understand just how important a first impression truly is (a website). If someone has a website that is just not navigational, the person will just leave the website and never turn back. People don't want to jump through hoops to get the client.

[Pelikano]

ugly

[Devil]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Well, you should understand that this isn't coming from CJ, this is coming from me and I am not part of CJ, I am just part of Graal. I do not consider myself to be an employee of CJ, nor should my announcements be considered. They are simply an announcement from Graal administration, not CJ, and they are not necessarily approved by Stefan/unixmad.

Also, I don't think you understand just how important a first impression truly is (a website). If someone has a website that is just not navigational, the person will just leave the website and never turn back. People don't want to jump through hoops to get the client.

You expect people to see things your way, yet you can't do the same for others?

Originally Posted by Darklux

Would you enter the shop like this: hey guys, your last shipments were very bad, can I help out here for a while?

Haha this made me laugh.

[FaLLChiLD]

Maybe we should include on the website what exactly you're getting into, such as:

1. The game is developed and ran by players
2. Your money and effort goes into the pocket of CJ
3. Client updates and the tools therein come few and far between
4. Things are continuing to get worse
5. ...
6. CJ raises prices as they fail more and more.

And we're concerned about bringing MORE players in?

This is targeting a higher power (I respect your efforts Tig as you've shown you actually do care). I just don't understand how we as paying customers are supposed to really care this much about a dying game who has no support from the actual creators. Yet, we are supposed to care enough to continue creating their game, create a new website for their game, and pay them more money still.

I was actually a little shocked to see the words "Graal is dying" come from Tig. He has argued for months now that it isn't, but it is inevitable.

R.I.P, your money is better spent else-where.

[alskdjfhg]

Originally Posted by FaLLChiLD

Maybe we should include on the website what exactly you're getting into, such as:

1. The game is developed and ran by players
2. Your money and effort goes into the pocket of CJ
3. Client updates and the tools therein come few and far between
4. Things are continuing to get worse
5. ...
6. CJ raises prices as they fail more and more.

And we're concerned about bringing MORE players in?

This is targeting a higher power (I respect your efforts Tig as you've shown you actually do care). I just don't understand how we as paying customers are supposed to really care this much about a dying game who has no support from the actual creators. Yet, we are supposed to care enough to continue creating their game, create a new website for their game, and pay them more money still.

I was actually a little shocked to see the words "Graal is dying" come from Tig. He has argued for months now that it isn't, but it is inevitable.

R.I.P, your money is better spent else-where.

^ True dat. So um hows the website doing? D:

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Devil

I'll post my opinion wherever I wish. Thanks for your concern anyway.

Yeesh, lay on your back and cry a little harder? If they want to QQ @ your opinion the least you can do is try not to QQ back.

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Then leave. You won't be missed.

Shut your boy hole.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I think at this stage we'd be better off with a standard header, left navigation field, and main column made with nothing but CSS(no images).

Better off without a doubt - but it's not really needed either; there's currently no distinguishable demand.


What it comes down to here is postulating is a great step, but not the answer to the argument. Postulate some approaches, apply some careful market research, find out the best approach & pursue - regardless of personal preferences.







I think the core of the argument is that players desire to play, and developers to develop; two very separate (but in the case of Graal) important directions.

Only shooting from the hip, but if the landing page were two faced, in the effect that there were two buttons or paths... Developing & Playing... it would pigeon hole both interests perfectly.

For development there could be a well organized path such that development tools (rc, level editor, ganishop, etc) are easily accessible and documentation is given very plainly and clearly for each.

For players there could be the servers and news spot lights for more successful servers - so players have a direction to head when they're new, and a reference if they find they're interested in other servers.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

*sigh* You guys are insufferable, first of all, all of you that derail every thread with CJ-bashing.

Anyways. Designing a good game website is not that hard. "Apply careful market research"? Don't complicate things with that jargon.

If Graal is a medieval-style fantasy game, get some blood-crusted axes, wood textures, some metal, and put it all together. If it's a Zelda clone, use some bright colors (light blues, greens, yellows) and simple textures - nothing too detailed - sans-serif font, preferably Trebuchet MS. If it's a gang-style game, get some vector Uzis, use lots of grey and black, pictures of mob bosses, etc.

Now you just have to decide which route to take. The trouble here is that Graal is not the game. Era, Zodiac, UN, Valikorlia, etc. are the game, and none of them have a single unifying characteristic. Since those servers are so different, you can't include everybody, so you're going to have to go with a single part of Graal. I would personally prefer the Zelda-clone style.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

*sigh* You guys are insufferable, first of all, all of you that derail every thread with CJ-bashing.

Anyways. Designing a good game website is not that hard. "Apply careful market research"? Don't complicate things with that jargon.

If Graal is a medieval-style fantasy game, get some blood-crusted axes, wood textures, some metal, and put it all together. If it's a Zelda clone, use some bright colors (light blues, greens, yellows) and simple textures - nothing too detailed - sans-serif font, preferably Trebuchet MS. If it's a gang-style game, get some vector Uzis, use lots of grey and black, pictures of mob bosses, etc.

Now you just have to decide which route to take. The trouble here is that Graal is not the game. Era, Zodiac, UN, Valikorlia, etc. are the game, and none of them have a single unifying characteristic. Since those servers are so different, you can't include everybody, so you're going to have to go with a single part of Graal. I would personally prefer the Zelda-clone style.

I'm suggesting careful steps are taken to ensure the future growth of Graal Online as a business and an Online Community. If you're not prepared for that commitment then you must really enjoy Graal in the current state.




I'm honestly surprised that a member, unsatisfied with the existing knee-jerk style of management, would honestly dismiss careful consideration when discussing future paths for Graal Online. It's almost an anti-suggestion.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I'm suggesting careful steps are taken to ensure the future growth of Graal Online as a business and an Online Community. If you're not prepared for that commitment then you must really enjoy Graal in the current state.

I'm honestly surprised that a member, unsatisfied with the existing knee-jerk style of management, would honestly dismiss careful consideration when discussing future paths for Graal Online. It's almost an anti-suggestion.

It's a website design, not a business plan. All the "market research" needed was just provided in my last post. It's really not as complicated as you want to make it sound.

Thanks for the neg rep, though. *passive aggressive +1*

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

It's a website design, not a business plan. All the "market research" needed was just provided in my last post. It's really not as complicated as you want to make it sound.

The website represents the marketing plan (or "business plan") which they're approaching. Sort self explanatory that one should follow the other.

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Thanks for the neg rep, though. *passive aggressive +1*

My pleasure.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Stephen

The website represents the marketing plan (or "business plan") which they're approaching. Sort self explanatory that one should follow the other.

No, no. Not really. Do you really think a typical website design firm employs "careful market research" when designing websites for clients? I suppose they do, if you consider (a) knowing current design trends and (b) knowing website archetypes "careful market research". Using jargon like that just overcomplicates things.