Log mass messages

[cbk1994]

Please add a server option to log mass messages. It would be extremely useful on servers like Era where we cannot effectively monitor masses and need to check history constantly (and often cannot since people like to exclude admins from mass messages that might be liable to get them in trouble). Logs could be stored in something like logs/masses/cb/cbk1994.txt.

[Scary_Sock]

This isen't such a bad idea. I like the idea of keepings logs of each player's mass message kept away. It would help catch people who just USD/Scam/Advertise in their mass message when Staff are busy with something else to read mass messages.

[Darlene159]

Good idea.

[salesman]

Would a message sent to only two or so players be considered a "mass message"? If so, the logs could be pretty deceiving.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by salesman

Would a message sent to only two or so players be considered a "mass message"? If so, the logs could be pretty deceiving.

It'd be hard to determine if something is a real mass message or just a "to friends" one, but I think that it'd be worth it anyway. No one (as far as I know) masses to like three people, anyway.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It'd be hard to determine if something is a real mass message or just a "to friends" one, but I think that it'd be worth it anyway. No one (as far as I know) masses to like three people, anyway.

I do, but, like Dusty said, it might be nice to include how many players received the message.

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

It'd be hard to determine if something is a real mass message or just a "to friends" one, but I think that it'd be worth it anyway. No one (as far as I know) masses to like three people, anyway.

But it is possible for that too happen, and it is possible for a bad outcome from that mass message to the certain group.

Every Mass Message should be logged or every mass message sent to an RC should be logged.

[salesman]

Don't you think these files would fill up quite a bit? You're probably not going to check them often enough to rename them as they get too big. (I know my RC crashes when I try to open files that are huge)

e: actually probably not, but there's some people who mass wayyyyy too much.

[DustyPorViva]

Could log how many players it was sent to.

[MysticX2X]

Wouldn't this be ridiculously huge even for one day?

Also, this seems like a negative for player privacy.

[cbk1994]

We already log mass messages on Era, in separate files per players, and I'm yet to see one get anywhere near a large file size. The reason I'm requesting hard-coded logging is because it is possible for players to evade the scripted stuff.

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Also, this seems like a negative for player privacy.

Player privacy? They're massing it out to the entire server. I'd agree if we were talking about just player PMs, but a public mass is not private.

EDIT: There is no benefit to just logging certain masses from what I can see; file size is not an issue.

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

There is no benefit to just logging certain masses from what I can see; file size is not an issue.

Although File Size is not an issue, logging pointless mass messages is. It wastes space that can be used. Sure, it isen't an issue NOW, but it still wastes space and it is pointless. Like I said, mass messages with inserted keywords from High Administrators should be logged.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Scary_Sock

Although File Size is not an issue, logging pointless mass messages is. It wastes space that can be used. Sure, it isen't an issue NOW, but it still wastes space and it is pointless. Like I said, mass messages with inserted keywords from High Administrators should be logged.

And what about when you're trying to find a mass message that they avoided by doing something like U$D or U.SD? What about when someone is harassing someone else?

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

And what about when you're trying to find a mass message that they avoided by doing something like U$D or U.SD? What about when someone is harassing someone else?

Then we put those as keywords. Yes, every single word possible for the words "USD". The fact that other games do this, like RuneScape or Habbo Hotel. Also, If they find a way to actually bypass the keyword system, that does not mean a player can't report that mass message. Yuo guys should implant the system secretly.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

Player privacy? They're massing it out to the entire server. I'd agree if we were talking about just player PMs, but a public mass is not private.

EDIT: There is no benefit to just logging certain masses from what I can see; file size is not an issue.

Well I know there will be certain gp's who will jail you after looking through the logs to see you used a couple cuss words 12 hours before.

Maybe I meant that there will be a 24/7 watch on mass messages now which seems really inappropriate from a players standpoint.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Well I know there will be certain gp's who will jail you after looking through the logs to see you used a couple cuss words 12 hours before.

Maybe I meant that there will be a 24/7 watch on mass messages now which seems really inappropriate from a players standpoint.

If policd are jailing for a swear word said 12 hours ago, then that is a problem with the staff team, not this system. Right now, players can mass out whatever they want and uncheck all admins, which makes it very, very difficult for us to confirm whether someone said something.

Graal's communication is not private. No servers log PMs, but there is no guarantee that Stefan doesn't log them somewhere. Mass PMs are already logged on Era, but in a way that is imperfect. In addition to that, we have a system that automatically checks for certain keywords in masses. The chat of certain players is logged, and we monitor the chat of all players for certain keywords.

Masses are absolutely not private. I disagree with logging PMs and even chat because I believe it's an invasion of privacy, but I don't see how people can argue that masses are private. They just aren't.

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

If policd are jailing for a swear word said 12 hours ago, then that is a problem with the staff team, not this system. Right now, players can mass out whatever they want and uncheck all admins, which makes it very, very difficult for us to confirm whether someone said something.

If that's the case, then I could imagine that mass messages can be made where they will send to an rc no matter what (granted that the rc has mass messages enabled). Again, it would be ridiculously huge to log pm's 24/7, unless you want to manually wipe it every day..

Masses are absolutely not private. I disagree with logging PMs and even chat because I believe it's an invasion of privacy, but I don't see how people can argue that masses are private. They just aren't.

Yes, I realize that. I just do not like the idea of being watched over 24/7 since GP's these days will jail you whether the report is unwarranted or not. (Sup UN).

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

If policd are jailing for a swear word said 12 hours ago, then that is a problem with the staff team, not this system. Right now, players can mass out whatever they want and uncheck all admins, which makes it very, very difficult for us to confirm whether someone said something.

Graal's communication is not private. No servers log PMs, but there is no guarantee that Stefan doesn't log them somewhere. Mass PMs are already logged on Era, but in a way that is imperfect. In addition to that, we have a system that automatically checks for certain keywords in masses. The chat of certain players is logged, and we monitor the chat of all players for certain keywords.

Masses are absolutely not private. I disagree with logging PMs and even chat because I believe it's an invasion of privacy, but I don't see how people can argue that masses are private. They just aren't.

Thats were GP's come in to take action against that. Remember, where not only relying on this system, but we rely on GP's to handle the other issues that may not be logged. Players can also report harmful mass-messages, and we can also put a couple of "Curse" words as keywords.

[Liberated]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Wouldn't this be ridiculously huge even for one day?

Also, this seems like a negative for player privacy.

since when are masses private?

[Scary_Sock]

Mass messages that should be logged if they include keywords also wouldn't be such a bad idea. It sums it down to just logging it if it includes keywords instead of every single mass message.

If a keyword was used, like "Scam" or "USD", the message would be logged. Otherwise, the mass message would not need to be logged.

[Mark Sir Link]

It's not a terrible idea as long as the logs are only accessible by a trusted few (probably not even playerworld staff, PWA or higher).

Only ever access logs if there's an actual complaint. Don't read them at your leisure.

And don't say it's impossible since I'm aware of a MMORPG that supposedly has 10 million + players and logs everything a player says whether in private or public for 6+ months.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

It's not a terrible idea as long as the logs are only accessible by a trusted few (probably not even playerworld staff, PWA or higher).

Logs can be read by GPs and many other staff, actually. Keep in mind these are only mass PM logs, not PM logs.

Only ever access logs if there's an actual complaint. Don't read them at your leisure.

This much is obvious, but is just a responsibility of the staff team. No harm would be done by them reading mass messages, anyway.

[Twinny]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

And don't say it's impossible since I'm aware of a MMORPG that supposedly has 10 million + players and logs everything a player says whether in private or public for 6+ months.

Yes, and their infrastructure is incredible. Graal Servers, on the other hand, are hosted in a Linux Vserver which is hosted on a server hosting multiple vservers..... resources are much more limited.

[DustyPorViva]

I don't understand this whole privacy and "must be accessed only by trusted admins"... they're mass PMs. All privacy went out the window when you decided to highlight all the players on the server and send a message to them.

I don't see size being that much of an issue. I'm sure Stefan could manage to have it clip off older parts of the log after a certain size(10mb?). Add that with staff keeping it organized just like RC logs and such, and I don't see the problem.

Not to mention size would only be a problem on the higher playercount servers. Other servers probably don't even get that much action in terms of masses to even worry about it.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I don't understand this whole privacy and "must be accessed only by trusted admins"

I won't say that the PWA are immune to this but the typical staff member on a playerworld have some degree of bias and I can easily see staff members targeting certain players and reading their logs just to punish them.

While it may be justified, Graal would probably operate much better under a no-harm, no-foul policy where actions are only pursued against a player if someone reports it.

[fowlplay4]

IMO, you gave up your privacy when you used Graal as a medium of passing messages to each other.

Hope to see it implemented, perhaps only logging the mass on the specified keywords?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

IMO, you gave up your privacy when you used Graal as a medium of passing messages to each other.

I kind of agree here. If you really want privacy you should use an instant messenger or something... and even then you might not have the privacy you imagine because of hacking and such. But I play games where admins can read just about every sort of communication, from local to private, and even players have skills that can listen in on private messages. You know what? No one complains because it's just a matter of accepting the fact that it's not a private medium. And yes, their staff is run by volunteers, that were once players(however they are anonymous, and go through very long training sequence, and give up their actual player character).

[Crono]

Big brother is watching.

The only people supporting it and how it should work are not even players. It's pretty pathetic how low the quality of GP's has gone, to the point where everything has to be automated. It's completely killed the fun of the game, from ingame censors to GP's on power trips for the most minor things on UN.

Logs of any kind should only be accessable by a select few.

[Darklux]

Originally Posted by Crono

Big brother is watching.

The only people supporting it and how it should work are not even players. It's pretty pathetic how low the quality of GP's has gone, to the point where everything has to be automated. It's completely killed the fun of the game, from ingame censors to GP's on power trips for the most minor things on UN.

Logs of any kind should only be accessable by a select few.

I agree, as PM's to a smaller count of people can be quite private.

[Bell]

Classic for years has had mass message logs. They were accessible to the admins and GP's only. It really wasn't a big deal and was only used as a tool to help in policing the server. Obviously if someone wants to mass something crude, they are going to deselect any GP's online so blaming them for not paying attention is really not always the case. It gave a GP the ability to go back and check logs if someone was reported doing something they shouldn't.

Later on foul language logs were added since Classic has been against filters also from the beginning of time. Those were also only accessible to the GP's and Admins. Usually only the worst of the worst were ever jailed for something found in hindsight but a warning was issued to clean it up or there would be consequences first.

The only reason file size is really an issue is due to how long it takes to download the file to read it. Personally I don't think its a huge deal to rename it every so often to keep it to a reasonable size. I would love to see a auto logging as with rc logs or npc logs. Its kind of annoying to have someone accused of sending bad masses only to find out there is no way to confirm they were ever sent.

[Sinkler]

Logging Mass Messages would make life easier for many people. I agree, we need to log mass messages.

[Scary_Sock]

Originally Posted by Sinkler

Logging Mass Messages would make life easier for many people. I agree, we need to log mass messages.

Im pretty sure the system was put in already.

This is not Private Message History, so this should be aloud:

Squirt Mercy (Away) (Wed Aug 12 16:32:09 2009):
Mass message:
Just a reminder.

Big brother is always watching ^.^

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Scary_Sock

Im pretty sure the system was put in already.

It hasn't been. I added something on Era that works sometimes.

[Tigairius]

I personally believe all PMs should be logged, not only mass messages. I know this is a major invasion of privacy, which is something I don't generally advocate, but in this special case. If not local staff, then tenured global staff should be able to view the history between people in order to help solve disputes of claimed harassment.

Graal is the only online game I can think of that doesn't log messages sent through the game, and it is a security risk as a result. If you want to speak privately, use e-mail, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, MySpace, Facebook, Twitter, ICQ, etc. There are many ways to talk about private things that don't even need to be discussed on Graal, so use them.

Being able to view PMs can give us the following capabilities (and more):

1. Solve complaints about stolen passwords being spread around, we could search for the account name being discussed in PMs and find the person(s) sending out the password.
2. Handle cases of mass messages containing inappropriate things (pornography, passwords, illegal discussions), and have solid proof to back it up.
3. Find discussion of anti-graal (spreading out links to trainers, people admitting to the use of such, etc).
4. Find additional information on account scams, item scams, and allow us to make the communities a safer place with proper proof.
5. Solve problems with extreme cases of harassment.
6. Many more "special case" problems can also be solved.

I find myself commonly asking, "Do you have the PM history?", and "Do you have the RC history?" Someone should be able to look these things up to get solid evidence...

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I personally believe all PMs should be logged, not only mass messages. I know this is a major invasion of privacy, which is something I don't generally advocate, but in this special case. If not local staff, then tenured global staff should be able to view the history between people in order to help solve disputes of claimed harassment. Graal is the only online game I can think of that doesn't log messages sent through the game, and it is a security risk as a result.

Other games have professional and hired teams of staff to be trusted with these logs, Graal doesn't. Local staff should definitely not be given such rights whatsoever if such a system were to be implemented. As someone that actually plays the damn game I can assure you that harassment isn't really that big of a problem outside a select few who probably bring it onto themselves anyway.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

If you want to speak privately, use e-mail, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc. There are many ways to talk about private things that don't even need to be discussed on Graal, so use them.

If PM's weren't intended to be used privately why call them "private messages"? There's probably trash people shouldn't be talking about through e-mail, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc but hey apparently thats ok because it's not Graal right? One of the only points going for Graal is that it can be used as a chatroom for people who are just really bored (or people who realize Graal has no real gameplay left LELELEL), don't try to kill that too.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Solve complaints about stolen passwords being spread around, we could search for the account name being discussed in PMs and find the person(s) sending out the password.

Stolen passwords are usually taken care of regardless. If I've stolen a password, I'm going to send it to someone over MSN if I don't want to be caught. If I want to boast that I've stolen the password (like many people do) then it's going to be obvious that it's from me anyway, private messages or not.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Find discussion of anti-graal (spreading out links to trainers, people admitting to the use of such, etc).

This can be done through the word filter.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Find additional information on account scams, item scams, and allow us to make the communities a safer place with proper proof.

Absolutely no 'real game' does this, they just provide a means of educating and warning their playerbase of such dangers which Graal does not.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Solve problems with extreme cases of harassment.

...
There's an ignore feature for that.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Crono

As someone that actually plays the damn game I can assure you that harassment isn't really that big of a problem outside a select few who probably bring it onto themselves anyway.

As someone who actually moderates the game, I would have to say that harassment is an issue, whether it is or not for you is not the problem being presented. Perhaps some of the harassment is brought onto themselves but that doesn't we should turn a blind eye to the situation.

Originally Posted by Crono

If PM's weren't intended to be used privately why call them "private messages"?

They would be called private messages because it's a way to privately message someone on the game and is not publicly seen, like mass messages. That does not mean they should be completely private from the administrators who run the game, and should not be taken so literally.

Originally Posted by Crono

There's probably trash people shouldn't be talking about through e-mail, AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc but hey apparently thats ok because it's not Graal right? One of the only points going for Graal is that it can be used as a chatroom for people who are just really bored (or people who realize Graal has no real gameplay left LELELEL), don't try to kill that too.

Exactly. We are not trying to moderate what you talk about in your life, just keep the trash off of Graal. People can chat on Graal no problem while still being moderated, providing that they are not talking about illegal things. I fail to see the problem.

Originally Posted by Rufus

Stolen passwords are usually taken care of regardless. If I've stolen a password, I'm going to send it to someone over MSN if I don't want to be caught. If I want to boast that I've stolen the password (like many people do) then it's going to be obvious that it's from me anyway, private messages or not.

It is a lot harder to go around asking everyone for their MSN than it is to just mass message it or PM it to people, because a lot of people are reluctant to disclose their MSN to other people upon informal request. Maybe it would be obvious to you, since you're the one boasting, but to us actually doing the job, it's not always so obvious, and obviousness is not proof, we need solid evidence.

Originally Posted by Rufus

This can be done through the word filter.

Not exactly, everyone can still just say "go to ww\w.we\b\site\.com just remove the \!" How do you propose such things are handled? Magical word filtering that automatically understands what the person is conveying? No, it requires human intelligence. A word filter can only help, but is not entirely sufficient.

Originally Posted by Rufus

Absolutely no 'real game' does this, they just provide a means of educating and warning their playerbase of such dangers which Graal does not.

Every single game I have played, which includes several high-end MMOs are able to sift through your private messages in order to see security-related problems.

Originally Posted by Rufus

...
There's an ignore feature for that.

Obviously there are special cases, and the ignore feature is not always completely sufficient. Some people have several accounts, and some people illegally change their PCIDs to log into new guest accounts and continue harassment after being ignored. Every single harassment case isn't just "black and white," there are always new and special ways people are finding to harass other people.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

As someone who actually moderates the game, I would have to say that harassment is an issue, whether it is or not for you is not the problem being presented. Perhaps some of the harassment is brought onto themselves but that doesn't we should turn a blind eye to the situation.

As someone that actually plays the game and actually sees what goes on, as opposed to just reading tickets of those that are brazen enough to complain after local staff refuse to deal with them, I say you're blowing things way out of proportion. Harassment isn't a major problem, hell, just log on a server and ask one of their GPs?

Originally Posted by Tigairius

That does not mean they should be completely private from the administrators who run the game, and should not be taken so literally.

Originally Posted by Code of Conduct

Should a player or players be suspected of illegal or abusive activity, GraalOnline reserves the right to use administration tools to monitor individuals' communications via chats and other private messages.

So unless someone is suspected of doing anything illegal, the chat logs shouldn't be applied to everyone but rather suspected individuals only. And no, I'm pretty sure it's not acceptable to deem every Graal user as a suspect.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Exactly. We are not trying to moderate what you talk about in your life, just keep the trash off of Graal. People can chat on Graal no problem while still being moderated, providing that they are not talking about illegal things. I fail to see the problem.

Players don't like it when everything they say is being logged, watched, or both. Then again as a moderator I wouldn't expect you to understand.

And p.s, sup

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Crono

So unless someone is suspected of doing anything illegal, the chat logs shouldn't be applied to everyone but rather suspected individuals only. And no, I'm pretty sure it's not acceptable to deem every Graal user as a suspect.

That's not exactly what it necessarily means, it says GraalOnline can use tools to monitor the chat, meaning that it's already logged, and we, the GraalOnline staff, can use that tool to monitor what was said. Try to remember that monitor has a past-tense meaning as well.

[Dragonosteel]

I agree with globals having access to logs in game. Definitely NOT server staff, though.

It would just be a disaster! This is what would happen:

Staff make fun of people over RC based on logs -> Staff that leak RC to their friends leak RC to their friends -> Their friends harass the player.

Originally Posted by Bell

While screenshots and histories are ok as 'additional evidence.' They should never be used as the sole evidence. They are too often altered or submitted to look like the accused is doing something wrong.

UN GPs would like to have a word with you. I can think of at least ten occasions within the past year where I've seen someone get jailed over fake screenshots used as sole evidence against the player, even one of these cases happened a few days ago.