Back (kind of) with some images of things i have been doing..

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

Hmm. Yes. They are very different. Here is the way I look at this after thinking about it: One is a collection of a lines, the other pixels. Pixels do make up a line, but lines do not make up pixel art

By the same logic, level design is distinct from both of them because it uses a different atom: the tile. Pixels make up tiles, but tiles do not make up pixel art. From the perspective of the viewer, all graphical media reduces to whatever is the smallest detectable picture element.

But in any case, I'm asking about the skills needed to succeed in the respective disciplines.

Also, architecture is a hand drawn and done with a variety of tools and rulers. I think the pixel art comparison is a little dumb =/

I'm not saying that they're equivalent, I'm simply asking for your opinion. My question is only "dumb" if it fails to serve its purpose, and you evidently don't know what that is.

[Zero Hour]

It's kind of different with architecture, though. When you create something as an architect it's created 2D on blueprints... they're designing art, not creating it there. When a graphic's artist does a piece it is art, it's not a design for a piece of art.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Zero Hour

It's kind of different with architecture, though. When you create something as an architect it's created 2D on blueprints...

What's your point?

[Soul-Blade]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

By the same logic, level design is distinct from both of them because it uses a different atom: the tile. Pixels make up tiles, but tiles do not make up pixel art. From the perspective of the viewer, all graphical media reduces to whatever is the smallest detectable picture element.

But in any case, I'm asking about the skills needed to succeed in the respective disciplines.

The comparison still isn't valid. Yes, architecture requires a certain skill and a unique skill from graphical art, but they don't need each other. Architecture stands independant from normal art.

Level design is different. It requires pixel art in order for it to exist. Without pixel art, there would be no level design. And pixel art is the harder part of level design. In addition, the skills you need for pixel art can be applied to level design. It you are a skilled artist, you are a skilled level designer. The same cannot be said with art vs architecture.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

The comparison still isn't valid

The ability to produce pixel art is a skill. The ability to design architecture is a skill. Why can't they be compared?

Yes, architecture requires a certain skill and a unique skill from graphical art, but they don't need each other

When did I say that they do?

Level design is different. It requires pixel art in order for it to exist. Without pixel art, there would be no level design

So what? Without computer science, pixel art would be impossible. Without brick makers, many types of architecture would be impossible. Without the dudes that mix paints, all variants of painting would be impossible.

So what?

The skill used to create art using a medium isn't the same as the skill needed to produce that medium.

In addition, the skills you need for pixel art can be applied to level design. It you are a skilled artist, you are a skilled level designer

Back it up, dawg. Why would I believe that this is true?

[Inspiration]

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

It you are a skilled artist, you are a skilled level designer.

Highly, highly falsified. Having a certain aesthetic sense helps greatly when making a level, but I have seen a great deal of skilled pixelers attempt to make levels and fail horribly until they put a good deal of practice into it.

[Redwizard]

Originally Posted by Inspiration

Highly, highly falsified. Having a certain aesthetic sense helps greatly when making a level, but I have seen a great deal of skilled pixelers attempt to make levels and fail horribly until they put a good deal of practice into it.

In this same way level makers could fail horribly with pixels until they put a good deal of practice into it. Graphics and levels makers are equal in the fact the make things out of tiles. We are the same, but graphics artists can work on a variety of things, while level makes are stuck in making levels.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Redwizard

Graphics and levels makers are equal in the fact the make things out of tiles

The major difference is in the type of things that they make.

[Zero Hour]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

The major difference is in the type of things that they make.

Yes, and the selection of "tiles"

[Soul-Blade]

Come now, this discussion is so stupid...it's beyond stupid.

Level designers have a palette of 4096 objects to work with. Guess how many a graphics artist has? 16777216. Don't tell me making levels is hard compared to making graphics. 16777216 is a lot of colors to choose from. 4096 tiles? Pffffft....don't make me laugh.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

Level designers have a palette of 4096 objects to work with. Guess how many a graphics artist has? 16777216. Don't tell me making levels is hard compared to making graphics

So your argument is that having more tools always makes a job more difficult?

[Zero Hour]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So your argument is that having more tools always makes a job more difficult?

I've create a scripting language, it works like this:
when (postcnt(accnt("Zero Hour"))>=2) {
(ban("Zero Hour"), "Your post count is greater than two!", 999999999);
}

All of the commands are listed, that wasn't an example of the scripting language. I'll go over the commands again..

when (variable)
postcnt(numerical)
accnt("account")
>= [Greater than or equal to)
ban ("account", "Reason", time in milleniums)


Ok, now I need you to create a script which will draw an image that can dance back and forth, and produce the sound of a dieing toad... also, if it could vomit leaving steaming piles of vomit on the floor for dramatic effect I would very much appriciate it.

tnx.

[Soul-Blade]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So your argument is that having more tools always makes a job more difficult?

It isn't tools; it's composition. The world is made up of over 100 different atoms, and chemisty is already extremely complex. Imagine if that world was made up of 200 atoms, how much more complex it would be.

The same logic can be applied here; obviously, different pixels don't have different properties like each atom does, but so many more pixels allows for much more complexity and much more difficulty.

You're putting words in my mouth by asking me that question, and it really did not pose much of an argument.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Soul-Blade

It isn't tools; it's composition

The objective is to use a finite number of source items to create a given effect. Isn't that easier if the number is bigger?

The world is made up of over 100 different atoms, and chemisty is already extremely complex. Imagine if that world was made up of 200 atoms

Imagine if it were made of 50 atoms. Wouldn't it then be more difficult to create equivalent effects?

You're putting words in my mouth by asking me that question

Not really. I'm just summarising your argument.

[LordZen]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Imagine if it were made of 50 atoms. Wouldn't it then be more difficult to create equivalent effects?

Heh, that makes good sense for purpose of this debate.

My position though, is level designers cannot make good levels without at least half way decent tiles. A level designer relies on an artist to have the skill and forsight to be able to create tiles which look good and also can be used together, meaningfully, and in a variety of combinations.

A pixel artist relies on no such thing, because his medium is a pixel which can only have one solid color in it. He must use his own creativity to build that into art, into something that looks good.

A level designer's medium is created by a pixel artist, another person, and relies on that pixel artist's creativity, at least in part, to be able to use his tiles in an aestheticly pleasing manner.