You Want Real Balance in the Kingdoms?

[ariella]

Zens Desicion as king to let the chancellor take over is his choice, It means that Zen either doesn't trust you or is sexist, I know that if I were a king I would let the queen take over if anything was to happen to me, its own individuals NOT the whole graal body making the kingdoms 'male controlled' So you beleive what you want to and I will know the facts =\ I agree some people *cough vahn cough* can have no respect for others (also dendori?) , But what you are saying comes down to the current kings desicion, so then its Zens fault you are saying....? chris's fault? I'd like to hear you're reason for this...

The idea about a kingdom run by females was to address a problem Hashi. What I dont want to do is start criticizing the rule of other kingdom leaders.

I understand why your having a hard time grasping the situation, because for one Hashi, as a male player you have never showed me any disrespect, simply because I am a female. And I understand it's difficult for some people to understand what it's like for others, unless they experience what they do. That meaning... you have never had to deal with the frustrations of being a female player in Kingdoms... so its difficult for you to understand what I'm talking about.

But Hashi if you think that female players are equal to male players then please search out this forum to understand the kind of sexual harrassment and dis respect that is edured by female players, then tell me...

How can a RP game be equal on a gender stand point when the basic attitude of male players is that female players are sexual objects, that as a male player it is a given right to degrade female players simply because they are "female" This attitude is founded on the principle that "its a man's world" which means males are superior to females. Where is the equality in that? I am not saying that every male player degrades female players, and i am not saying that every female player has not degraded a male player. But if you look at the whole picture and not just individual experiences.... you will see that this is a male dominated game. If there is male domination... there is no female equality.

[Dark-Hashi]

Originally posted by ariella

How can a RP game be equal on a gender stand point when the basic attitude of male players is that female players are sexual objects, that as a male player it is a given right to degrade female players simply because they are "female" This attitude is founded on the principle that "its a man's world" which means males are superior to females. Where is the equality in that? I am not saying that every male player degrades female players, and i am not saying that every female player has not degraded a male player. But if you look at the whole picture and not just individual experiences.... you will see that this is a male dominated game. If there is male domination... there is no female equality.

This I have to say it a load of cr** Females are NOT thought of a sexual objects, I think personal experiance is something you are taking on here... and not all people do it thank you, MOST people don't do it, and I think you should look at yourself in the mirror and see how you are taking a VERY sexist female opinion here... I have a wife on kingdoms, She is my partner, she has every right in this relationship as I do and by me saying 'my wife' it is just the same as I am 'her husband' equal... You need to seriously look at yourself... its very hypocritial of you to be saying most of this, you are catagoring all males and saying they are all sexist... =\

[ariella]

Um, Ariella. Isn't that being extremely sexist to males? I mean as far as I'm aware every kingdom has females in it, so not allowing guys to enter an 'all-female' setup would be very hypocritical. Even if males were allowed to join they have to uphold some feminist view? I really think you're taking a personal situation about not ruling Zormite out of all context. I'm a female and have never received crude sexual harassment on kingdoms at all, I've only seen ignorance and arrogant conversations between players over mindless issues *cough* vahn *cough*

I was afraid that my making this suggestion would have some feel that this is about me "getting to rule" which it is not. Zen is a great ruler and has and always will have my upmost respect and loyalty.

I am VERY HAPPY that you have not have had to experience they type of sexual harrassment and abuse that other female players have!!!! That's awesome!!!! But the fact that you haven't doesnt mean that it doesn't exist for the majority of female players. And it doesnt mean that the female players who experience this are doing something to provoke it either!

Maybe my peronal feelings are attached to these posts, but's what's wrong with that? I am not trying to degrade individual players, but trying to find solutions to "attitudes that cause abusive behaviors". Do I get angry about the inappropriate sexual remark I and other female players experience.... Of course I do... but again what's wrong with that? Anger and abuse are not the same thing. Anger is an emotion, abuse is a behavior. Being angry about things that are "wrong" are what inspire change!

I have NEVER stated that the idea of a New kingdom run by females would somehow be "AGAINST" males! And how would it be sexist? One kingdom out of 5 that females would have a chance to rule is sexist? One kingdom out of 5 that a male wouldnt rule is sexist? 5 kingdoms and no female ruler seems sexist.

So to be honest as I first mentioned the idea of a feminist kingdom is wrong, if it goes ahead would it be wrong for males to set up a kingdom against girls on the basis of an arguement over who got to be king in zormite? The answer should be no but somehow males do seem to be punished due to a few idiots.

Again I never stated or suggested that the kingdom would be "against" males. And there is no arguement over being King of Zormite. Zen is King and as far as I know he has no intention of leaving soon. I think you missed the point somewhere.

[grim2002]

It's not worth replying to that comment as you clearly stated the kingdom would only employ males who were willing to follow a feminist rule. The sad fact is that there will always be those who degrade females which will drag down the majority of males' reputations. You should take the argument up with Zen as you seem a little bitter.

"Maybe my peronal feelings are attached to these posts, but's what's wrong with that?" - Um a lot of things as it shows you are being bias in your views and opinions.

Sorry that I'm standing against you in this matter but I simply don't agree with what you are saying.

[Kojilee7]

I think Female Leaders is a great idea Female player's derserve as much respect as male players

[ariella]

This I have to say it a load of cr** Females are NOT thought of a sexual objects, I think personal experiance is something you are taking on here... and not all people do it thank you, MOST people don't do it, and I think you should look at yourself in the mirror and see how you are taking a VERY sexist female opinion here... I have a wife on kingdoms, She is my partner, she has every right in this relationship as I do and by me saying 'my wife' it is just the same as I am 'her husband' equal... You need to seriously look at yourself... its very hypocritial of you to be saying most of this, you are catagoring all males and saying they are all sexist... =\

Hashi? Did you read my response to you correctly? How did I catagorize "ALL MALES" as being sexisit when my response to you was:
[QUOTE] ! am not saying that every male player degrades female players, and i am not saying that every female player has not degraded a male player. But if you look at the whole picture and not just individual experiences.... you will see that this is a male dominated game. If there is male domination... there is no female equality.[/QOUTE]

In all my responses to you I have never tried to put you down or tell you that "you need to seriously look at yourself" as if there is something wrong with you. I have never called you hypocrit or tried in anyway to "Make You Look Stupid" for your opinions. If you don't understand my point Hashi, that's fine, but just because you don't understand doesn't mean that my point is a bunch of (as you called it) cr**.

[Dark-Hashi]

Look sorry but I don't care, I have stopped caring, go ahead with the kingdom I don't mind at all, I realise there will be people with sexist opinions and who are bias, I can't change that since they don't listen, don't reply to this post for I am not caring anymore o.o

[ariella]

It's not worth replying to that comment as you clearly stated the kingdom would only employ males who were willing to follow a feminist rule. The sad fact is that there will always be those who degrade females which will drag down the majority of males' reputations. You should take the argument up with Zen as you seem a little bitter.

Why does everyone think I have a problem with Zen?? I have no problem with Zen, infact this thread has nothing to do with Zen. I think what happened is that when trying to respond to something that Hashi had commented on in a pm on kingdoms... it got miss understood. The part about Zen choosing another Chancellor has nothing to do with this post, I only stated that because Hashi was making a statement that female players dont get to higher ranks because "they don't try hard enough" And somehow everything got changed around and this thread became about me being angry about not ruling Zormite. How did that happen?

This thread started was an idea on how to balance male and female accomplishments in kingdom. It was just an idea on how that could happen. I wasn't angry when I posted it. It was something that seemed like a good idea to think about. and it seems despite whatever I say about my loyalty to Zen, and my respect for him and other kingdom leaders like Tseng... Now, I am somehow now "bitter". ??? I wasn't bitter when I started this thread, and I'm not bitter now... but I am frustrated because I seem to be mis-understood. It's difficult I guess to try and explain a point when people have different ideas about the "problem" or if they even "think" there's a problem. The only time I mentioned being angry was talking about what i have, and have seen other female players endure. I was trying to point out that being angry at something that is wrong does'nt mean you are being "vengeful" when you seek change. A perfect example is Martin Luther King. He was angry about racism, so he used his anger to "peacefully" work toward change. It didn't mean that because he experienced rascism, or seen many of his people degraded that he was being "vengeful" in seeking a solution to the problem. I guess that when you stand up against something that is 'wrong" against a majority, and the majority isn't ready for change, the result is assasination.

I also didn't say that the kingdom would only employ males who would follow a feminist rule. I was refering to a statement about it being an all female kingdom. And I was trying to get to a point that maybe males would be in the kingdom if they uphold a rule about "seeing the value in and respecting female players. Why is that wrong? Every kingdom has rules. If you can decide not to recuit a player because they have scammed other players, why couldn't you decide not to recuit a player because they sexually degrade female players?

I have to say though... it amazes me on how many times I have been miss-quoted in these replies.

And I will also say to everyone who reads this: I have nothing again male players who treat me and other female players with respect and dignity. I am not try to "male bash" here. I am not trying to seek "special treatment" for female players. I AM NOT LOOKING for an easy way to BE A LEADER. I IN NO WAY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ZEN AND HIS LEADERSHIP. (I really need to make that clear!!!!) I am just trying to state fact as I see it, you may see it differently. Your opinions may be different, and I respect that also.

[Dark-Hashi]

Originally posted by ariella
because Hashi was making a statement that female players dont get to higher ranks because "they don't try hard enough" And

Thats a crock, I never said that, Look who is misunderstanding people now Raz =\ I said that females weren't getting ranks because maybe they didn't want it enough (I have always been taught if you want something bad enough then you'll get it, if you don't get it usually you didn't want it bad enough) or wanted it but not enough and failed, but females have gotten high ranks alot of times before so you can't say they don't ( Plus there being like a 20% female playing ratio wasn't even mentioned ) There aren't as many females as males who play graal in all, so it would mean less would get high ranks simply because there aren't many female players and maybe thoughs who do play aren't bold enough to try (there are alot of males willing to try and alot who are not just like females)

[grim2002]

And maybe males can join the kingdom but have to be willing to uphold the laws that govern the "feminst objective" and that is "to enforce the value and respect of female players."

Please don't patronise me.

This quote means you are aiming for feminism within this new kingdom, does it not? I don't think extremist views will help solve this problem.. There just happen to be more males than females who play the game and so due to ratio laws there will be more males than females in higher positions, it is not a fault in the game that it just so happens all the dominant positions are held by males. As I've previously stated the very little minority of males in the game are sexist or just pig-ignorant, and it would only take one or two to offend lots of people.

P.S Zen has quite a bit to do with this whole post, you mentioned yourself not being consulted or offered. Therefore I still believe you are bias.

[ariella]

Thats a crock, I never said that, Look who is misunderstanding people now Raz =\ I said that females weren't getting ranks because maybe they didn't want it enough (I have always been taught if you want something bad enough then you'll get it, if you don't get it usually you didn't want it bad enough) or wanted it but not enough and failed, but females have gotten high ranks alot of times before so you can't say they don't ( Plus there being like a 20% female playing ratio wasn't even mentioned ) There aren't as many females as males who play graal in all, so it would mean less would get high ranks simply because there aren't many female players and maybe thoughs who do play aren't bold enough to try (there are alot of males willing to try and alot who are not just like females)

My appologies Hashi... to me it meant the same thing. because going after something and not getting it to me, ment not trying hard enough. My appologies for the miss-understanding.

Please don't patronise me. This quote means you are aiming for feminism within this new kingdom, does it not? I don't think extremist views will help solve this problem.. There just happen to be more males than females who play the game and so due to ratio laws there will be more males than females in higher positions, it is not a fault in the game that it just so happens all the dominant positions are held by males. As I've previously stated the very little minority of males in the game are sexist or just pig-ignorant, and it would only take one or two to offend lots of people.

P.S Zen has quite a bit to do with this whole post, you mentioned yourself not being consulted or offered. Therefore I still believe you are bias.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, but all I can say again is. Zen has nothing to do with the post. This post actually came about when me and another female player were talking about it. She unfortunately hasnt received her password to post in the forum. You can believe what you want again, I'm not going to argue the point with you. But Zen amking his decission happened a while ago, and to be honest didn't even think about it until I needed to use an example. I think if I was angry about Zen's decision, I would have posted it then.

The sad part is that this whole thread has moved away from it's intention, and as usually happens, has been labeled a "personal issue". It's too bad that people can't just have idea's or suggestions that are just seen for what they are , enstead of them being phycho analyzed into something else.

[Tseng]

While I find your ideals very noble, I still question your methods. Making a kingdom like this deals with the symptom, but not the cause.

I still say it would be better to just speak with Stefan about the sexual harrassment you are receiving if it is such a growing problem; in fact, I'll mention it to him later this afternoon if I get a chance to talk to him, and see if he has any ideas to deal with this problem.

[Demon]

The glass ceiling speech.. *sigh* Maybe I am blind because I think women are = to men and think everyone else sees the same way I do. I really do not think there is a glass ceiling. Twice as long? I know females who go up ranks at speeds that make speedy gonzalas look slow. The only thing females have that is any kind of hardship on this game is the males hitting on them, and sexually harrassing them. But guess what Those same guys, sexually harrass other guys. Yes that is right any time you see someone say *rapez* they do it to guys too.. They are just annoyances.
However, I agree a female Kingdom would be neat.. but I wouldn't necessarily make it a kingdom.. maybe just a group with a little place on an already kingdom island.. like forest.. maybe the amazons. But, I would not expect it to be all female, some males (I won't name anybody) Like to be females in game, and may sneak in.

[ariella]

While I find your ideals very noble, I still question your methods. Making a kingdom like this deals with the symptom, but not the cause.

I'm sure you are correct Tseng. And again, the idea wasn't meant to solve the problem, but maybe alter it a little. As IRL I think there is no real "clear solution" to any problem that deals with racism, sexism, ageism and all the other "isms" for that matter.

And this thread wasn't meant to be a debate over the issue of whether or not female players are being miss-treated or not, they're are many threads describing the issue.

The idea of a Kingdom run by females was just a way, I thought to give female players an equal chance, at achiveing their goals, at the same rate of male players. And the benefit from that would hopefully alter some of the problems stemming from the "its a man's World" attitude of some, because there would be at least a small area where females ruled and prospered.

Would it make matters worse... I'm guessing that you are probably right about some members attacking even worse. But at least again there would be the area where females could rule and prosper.

[Tseng]

Originally posted by ariella


I'm sure you are correct Tseng. And again, the idea wasn't meant to solve the problem, but maybe alter it a little. As IRL I think there is no real "clear solution" to any problem that deals with racism, sexism, ageism and all the other "isms" for that matter.

Nobody's tried my solution - ignore all those "isms." If one is never taught that they can hate other groups of people for no reason, baseless "isms" will no longer exist. However, one could under this system perhaps be jealous of some group's ability to run faster or jump higher, but not necessarily hate them for it. As long as anyone has racism in mind, it will continue to exist.

The idea of a Kingdom run by females was just a way, I thought to give female players an equal chance, at achiveing their goals, at the same rate of male players. And the benefit from that would hopefully alter some of the problems stemming from the "its a man's World" attitude of some, because there would be at least a small area where females ruled and prospered.

I already said, it's a good idea; but it doesn't solve the problem. In fact, I believe that the direct result of this would be a high amount of jealousy, and it could only increase the amount of negative feelings/sexual harrassment.

Would it make matters worse... I'm guessing that you are probably right about some members attacking even worse. But at least again there would be the area where females could rule and prosper.

But at what cost? To be harrassed any time you're walking through a city for being "a part of that [insert insulting word here] women's kingdom"?

I just doubt its effectiveness.