a new start

[DarkCloud_PK]

Eh. I could write an essay on the failure of classic and why.
Classic has been going down a very long downward spiral for awhile now since the NPC server era started what 4-5 years back.

The decision to rebuild classic for the NPC server era from the ground up was an awful idea in itself. Especially the serverside HD decision, so classic would be some sort of pinnacle of serverside hoopla, some pinnacle now.

By not relying on default HD, nearly nothing default could be used to develop, i.e. baddies, chests, etc. You also made it impossible to easily recycle all the old NPCs from pre NPC server into a usable form, all had to be rescripted to work with the custom HD and movement systems. Trust me, from experience, trying to bring back things from old classic is a pain in the ass. Why? Because it all has to be rehauled for the custom systems, if you can even do that, sometimes it has to be rebuilt from scratch.

So with that decision to make all those damn custom systems as well as rebuild the OW from nearly scratch, you've set yourself behind the other PWs(competition for players) by getting rid of content deemed old and inferior, needing a rehaul, BUT you've also made it so it is HARDER to develop for the server than other servers. So, now we've got classic working from behind, and at slower pace than everyone else, who gets to use those default systems, such as UN.

Throw in all the other problems that came about all the years, which further crippled classics comeback. The constant switching of LAT Admins for one. Each new LAT/Dev Admin that came in deemed the previous one inferior, and sought out to redo or destroy all the progress the previous admin achieved. That included redoing the custom HD and movement systems multiple times. I think I coined the phrase long ago that we had more movement system and HD system redos than quests released. Each system redo caused problems with all the content built around the former system, which required development resources to fix.

So now you have a lack of content, a difficulty to make content, and the content being released usually being a rehash of something already made. Limited resources being used to repave the same road instead of making new roads. A bit silly, no?

So that went on for years, forming this downward spiral. UN and Zodiac and pretty much a bunch of other servers made it to the top while classic lagged behind. That's how its been going, and how its continuing to go.

Where was the management to sever the spiral you ask? Nowhere. Storm, while good on the PR front, has close to no ability to manage a server. Simply put, he lets the developers and admins walk all over him. He is also one of the most indecisive admins I've seen, in order to get him to make a decision, if you're lucky, you would have to back him into a corner, for days. No decisions got made by the management, so classic was allowed to coast, the horrible and inactive admins left to do whatever they wanted.

Here we are today, years later, the effects of spiraling ever downward are now apparent to everyone. As the spiral continues, classic gets ever more hopeless to get a chance for a rebound. Why?

Community builds community, higher player count servers are going to get more newbies, noone wants to log onto an online game like graal to play with the same 2 people and 3 idling RCs.

Developers dont want to develop for someones dead server unless it's their own private PW that will never make it to hosted or classic tab, developers either go to high profile servers, or they start their own project. It isnt fun to develop unless
A)People are going to use what you make and enjoy it.
or
B)You get to develop things in your own vision.

Deving for classic offers neither.

So its kind of a catch 22, the deeper you go, the harder it is to get out.
All the odds are against Classic right now in every department.
It would take some sort of ridiculous combination of hype and change(think of it in terms of obama hype after bush, guess who bush is in classic's case), addicting content, and the failure on some part of the dominat servers now, only with that sort of combo in rapid succession, could classic see the top.

[WhiteDragon]

I figure an response from an administrator is due at this point, so I'll interject some official opinions on here to hopefully clear things up.

Classic has, as previous noted, been losing players at an even faster rate than all the other playerworlds because of its lack of new content that the player can interact with (e.x., new quests, new weapons) and lack of replayable content. The server has also not been getting new players because of lack of quality content and highly undeveloped storyline.

There is a extrinsic balance we have to aim for when developing on the server to create new content and make sure all the content on the server is high-quality. This is because we can lose players if they aren't attracted in the first place because of low-quality content, and we can lose current players if there is no new content released.

After a good amount of content is released, a sort of safety net is formed where we have more time to improve on quality since there is more content already out there for the newer players to go through.

This safety net gives a false sense of security though because the general opinion is not as negative and the development team ends up doing something like rewriting the movement and ruining half of the content on the server.

The rest of the development team and I hope to reach the balance between quality and content and always keep in mind exactly where we are and not do anything to throw off that balance. This is at least what I have learned from the previous development teams and where they have broken down, and also from the success of certain other development teams before the NPC server.

Most of the storyline on Classic has already been thought out, and we are just attempting to strategically release the quests and still keep the quality up, while also trying to create replayable content such as bowling for the current players to entertain themselves with all with a very limited development team.


What I would really like everyone to do is let go of the grudges against the development team or any specific members of it, and instead try to guide us to hit this balance right on through opinion.
Thor and I have both been reading this thread and most of the posts have been helpful in doing so.

I would also like to remind everyone that we are always looking for potential new developers to help us out whether you specifically agree with our opinions or not: http://classicgraal.net/applications/development/

[-Ramirez-]

The single largest problem about trying to convert the built-in systems to a custom system was the fact that the built-in ones allowed a single player in a level to control where all NPCs moved and what variables they held. This player-controlled environment allowed NPCs to have data sent in 0.05 second intervals, rather than 0.1, and the movement was, for whatever reason, more fluid than what the NPC Server produces. Move() is a joke for NPCs that frequently change direction. It produces horrible results in comparison to what existed before.

Hit detection being done clientside before is also what contributed to the difficulty of trying to reproduce what we had. Everyone always tried to make it serverside, which just can't come close to what everyone played with before. I see that there's been a reversion back to clientside detection at the moment, but I don't know if this applies to both NPCs and players.

If any of this was unknown to those currently doing the script work, maybe this will give an insight into what needs to be done to allow reproduction of old-style quests. I wouldn't mind discussing various aspects further, if anyone is interested. Hopefully these things were already known though, as it was all pretty obvious if you ever scripted before the NPC Server.

Of course, all of what I've talked about is dealing with the core scripts of the server, as is usually the focus. I'm just assuming that these scripts are still a problem right now, if there's lacking content.



Btw, Tyhm, you should know that it isn't always possible to halfass things when scripting is involved. There are some things you just MUST HAVE in order to proceed, if you want something that's the slightest bit interesting, at least. For example, when I was actively rebuilding for the NPC Server, we could have made quests with no baddies, but given how integral they were to so many quests, it would have essentially been "walk through these areas and get a reward, then never come back because there's no reason to". That's a pure waste.

[Tyhm]

We can kvetch about how the movement of baddies ought to be one way or another until the cows come home; personally I think the very best way is to use move() serverside and very clever showani clientside, but that's me, and I can't even figure out destroy(); anymore, so. Plus they'd have to revise arrows and whatnot so it hits where the baddy Seems to be, bollocks to where its serverside self is.
But say they take our advice, redo everything clientside and clever, it takes 'em a month of no-new-content, and then something breaks and it's all gotta go back. So they take a month setting it back the way it was, and it kinda works, but whatever, it beats nothing. Then some old admin storms in, fires everyone and puts it back to the clientside way, takes a month again. Then he realizes it's still broken and sets it back, another month. Enough already, it's madness, I just wanna play the pyramid and the gravity tower (my version), oi. And birdshot around everywhere, that was fun. Never did get it working right in the gravity tower, but it's not a platformer server anyway...

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

personally I think the very best way is to use move() serverside and very clever showani clientside

You wouldn't say that if you had actually seen it done. This is regarding attempts to mirror old baddy movement, however.

But say they take our advice, redo everything clientside and clever, it takes 'em a month of no-new-content, and then something breaks and it's all gotta go back. So they take a month setting it back the way it was, and it kinda works, but whatever, it beats nothing. Then some old admin storms in, fires everyone and puts it back to the clientside way, takes a month again. Then he realizes it's still broken and sets it back, another month.

I don't think that's ever even happened in the past, and it seems like a stupid thing to consider when trying to get things done. It's already evident that Storm does nothing anyway, so there's definitely no risk in this case.

[Bell]

We all know that hindsight is 20/20 vision but what everyone seems to be avoiding is the fact that everything humanly possible was supposed to be scripted to serverside for security reasons. It seems to me you get the choice of fun but abuseable or secure and annoyingly slow to develop due to constant roadblocks and issues.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Bell

but what everyone seems to be avoiding is the fact that everything humanly possible was supposed to be scripted to serverside for security reasons

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. There's no danger to the server by having scripts done clientside. There's no danger to anything at all except for player fairness. This didn't stop people (presumably) from playing in the past, why would it stop them now? Having the threat of someone abusing the clientsided nature of the game gave the GP team a reason to exist.

Ultimately, it's very much worth the risk of cheating in some situations to get things functioning as they did in the past, which is what the majority of people want anyway.

[Tyhm]

Sure, but for a long time it Was a concern; if someone could auto-hack all the arrows to home in on their enemies, baddies to spawn in the bank, explosions to form giant symbols of hate in OnlineStartLocal...it's problematic.

What sucks is every time it shifts from "Serverside is important" to "Clientside is important", Classic loses a lot of time Rewriting everything...it's better with classes, at least they don't have to go level-to-level anymore, but still.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Sure, but for a long time it Was a concern; if someone could auto-hack all the arrows to home in on their enemies, baddies to spawn in the bank, explosions to form giant symbols of hate in OnlineStartLocal...it's problematic.

It wouldn't be as "insecure" as the pre-NPC server days, but yes, there would still be things that could be "illegally" modified. Who cares? It didn't happen that often, and it's just not that hard to deal with. I think most people would agree that it's better than the alternative perfectly "secure" and horrible to play with version.

What sucks is every time it shifts from "Serverside is important" to "Clientside is important", Classic loses a lot of time Rewriting everything...it's better with classes, at least they don't have to go level-to-level anymore, but still.

This shift has happened one time thus far due to being forced and nobody really thinking about whether or not it was necessary, myself included. However, this was not the cause for the huge delay that's been experienced with the conversion to using an NPC Server.
I have no idea what you were referring to when you mentioned classes.

[Tyhm]

Probably a good thing we don't dictate policy, then. ;-)

Say they move movement from serverside to clientside.
Any script that edited movement - from defining the size of blocking objects to pushing the player away from or towards certain NPCs - has to be rebuilt to make sure it's moving the Client instead of/as well as the serverside.
Then if you get hit, your flying-backwards is clientside too. So everything that used to hit you serverside has to hit you clientside. Every NPC that does damage has to make sure the Client's in on the game.
And on it goes.
At least they don't have to edit 3000 levels in the level editor like we used to have to; For The Most Part they can just open the Classes pane and edit "baddies" and "sardon_vortex" right there in RC. For the most part.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Any script that edited movement - from defining the size of blocking objects to pushing the player away from or towards certain NPCs - has to be rebuilt to make sure it's moving the Client instead of/as well as the serverside.
Then if you get hit, your flying-backwards is clientside too. So everything that used to hit you serverside has to hit you clientside. Every NPC that does damage has to make sure the Client's in on the game.
And on it goes.

I'm fully aware of what has to be done to make things work properly. At the moment, however, there's nowhere near what the old Classic had to convert if a change is made. It should be relatively easy.

At least they don't have to edit 3000 levels in the level editor like we used to have to; For The Most Part they can just open the Classes pane and edit "baddies" and "sardon_vortex" right there in RC. For the most part.

I also understand how classes work already. I just didn't see what you meant in the previous post with the way you had worded/structured the sentence.

[DustyPorViva]

I don't see why they can't use the default system. They're basically rebuilding the wheel with Classic, when it's not needed. Sure, it's not the most secure system but there are much easier ways to deal with that.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

I don't see why they can't use the default system.

If I recall, there's no way to allow for various things that're important to quests. (At least old ones.) Lifting, pushing, and pulling come to mind, but there's probably more than that to deal with.

[Tyhm]

Ideal Compromise:
release the script for the default system, so Classic can edit and override it as necessary. The end.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

If I recall, there's no way to allow for various things that're important to quests. (At least old ones.) Lifting, pushing, and pulling come to mind, but there's probably more than that to deal with.

There are very, very few things that I can think of that they can't replicate with the default system.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

There are very, very few things that I can think of that they can't replicate with the default system.

That's easy to say if you aren't sure of yourself, but how about some examples to show that you are?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

That's easy to say if you aren't sure of yourself, but how about some examples to show that you are?

Push/pull/grab all have their respective functions that are called on the default system:

function onActionGrabbed() {}

so on and so forth. There's no need to even rescript it. Lifting? I don't think there is an action called for that, but I don't think it'd be hard to replicate with scripted items. There are functions and checks for items carried and such, though. I wouldn't be able to say if anything else could be as well without knowing exactly what is needed. Either way, while the default system itself is fairly limited, it's a lot easier to just rescript/tack on needed things with it instead of rescripting it all.

Either way, nothing on the server so far has showed me very much reason why a custom system is needed.

[Tyhm]

I imagine it had a lot to do with development in stages; the custom system was built when
1) there was no default system
2) the "defaults" didn't work online
3) it sure seemed there never Would be a "defaults", and even if there were Classic wouldn't be given access to it.

Nowadays, sure, I guess you can do everything just using the defaults and some clever PSYCHIC GORRAM scripting (bonus points if you can tell me where ordinary mortals can look up function onActionGrabbed(){;...); that said, any of us could pretty easily take an empty server, an old Classic levelspack, and do a better job than Stormy, huh?

Well, go for it. You have my blessing. Iff you succeed, I'll throw my weight behind Your classic supplanting Stormy's classic, and Stormy's classic going back to the Under Construction tab.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Push/pull/grab all have their respective functions that are called on the default system

There are functions and checks for items carried and such, though.

None of that was true when I last stopped scripting. I've not seen anything since, but I'm not saying they definitely don't exist.

Either way, nothing on the server so far has showed me very much reason why a custom system is needed.

That may be true, but the content you're unfamiliar with does in fact need it all.

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Well, go for it. You have my blessing. Iff you succeed, I'll throw my weight behind Your classic supplanting Stormy's classic, and Stormy's classic going back to the Under Construction tab.

I'd probably be one of the first people to start to do this if it were allowed. Too bad I've got other things occupying my time now.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

None of that was true when I last stopped scripting. I've not seen anything since, but I'm not saying they definitely don't exist.

It's been around for a long, long time. Before GS2. I believe they were introduced a little after triggeractions were.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

That may be true, but the content you're unfamiliar with does in fact need it all.

Then it shouldn't. If I can look at something and not see why it can't be done with the default(script-wise), then I see no reason why it needs to be custom.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

1) there was no default system

Err... what?

Originally Posted by Tyhm

2) the "defaults" didn't work online

UN has never had a problem with defaults working online. Eventually things did break down, but as you can see, UN is still up and running on the default system.

Originally Posted by Tyhm

3) it sure seemed there never Would be a "defaults", and even if there were Classic wouldn't be given access to it.

I believe Thor was given numbers to some specific defaults, but I don't believe he used them.

Originally Posted by Tyhm

bonus points if you can tell me where ordinary mortals can look up function onActionGrabbed(){;...);

It used to be documented in newfeatures. Nowadays you can usually search the wiki and find it. Not as easy, I suppose, but it's there.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

It's been around for a long, long time. Before GS2. I believe they were introduced a little after triggeractions were.

It appears that at least the "actionpush" and "actionpull" flags did exist, but I've found no evidence for "actiongrab". Either I never modified/used a script that used those two flags or I just plain forgot. There's still no reason to assume that "actiongrab" exists, for me.

Then it shouldn't. If I can look at something and not see why it can't be done with the default(script-wise), then I see no reason why it needs to be custom.

You're assuming that you're considering everything there is to consider, and that's not always the case.

Anyway, redoing the default systems REALLY isn't that difficult. I've done it twice in the past, although in an incomplete way. The issue was just that it has always been done with the whole "security" aspect in mind, and not just by me. It seems stupid to go to the trouble to make a lot of things work with the default system when you could just make your own, fully customizable system, then do the same work afterward to make the rest work with the new, superior one. The choice is obvious, but either way, it's different from what's currently implemented.

[DustyPorViva]

[QUOTE=-Ramirez-;1465576]It appears that at least the "actionpush" and "actionpull" flags did exist, but I've found no evidence for "actiongrab". Either I never modified/used a script that used those two flags or I just plain forgot. There's still no reason to assume that "actiongrab" exists, for me.
[quote]
Ah yes, no onactiongrab... but easily replicated. Era did it for a very long time before converting over to a custom system.

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

You're assuming that you're considering everything there is to consider, and that's not always the case.

Anyway, redoing the default systems REALLY isn't that difficult. I've done it twice in the past, although in an incomplete way. The issue was just that it has always been done with the whole "security" aspect in mind, and not just by me. It seems stupid to go to the trouble to make a lot of things work with the default system when you could just make your own, fully customizable system, then do the same work afterward to make the rest work with the new, superior one. The choice is obvious, but either way, it's different from what's currently implemented.

The problem is I really never have seen enough reason to reinvent the wheel. Classic is basically trying to rescript to make it exactly like the default, but for little benefit. Like I said, security is not that big of a deal. I'd just rather see work go into more important things than always having to fix or tweek the custom systems.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

The problem is I really never have seen enough reason to reinvent the wheel. Classic is basically trying to rescript to make it exactly like the default, but for little benefit.

I can't particularly say that I have either, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, or that it's even stupid to do. There is such a HUGE volume of old content that it's impossible to try to consider exactly what's needed. Just having something that you KNOW would suit every need is ideal, and is what I always personally strived for.
You said that it's "for little benefit", but how can you know? You don't know what's coming.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

I can't particularly say that I have either, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, or that it's even stupid to do. There is such a HUGE volume of old content that it's impossible to try to consider exactly what's needed. Just having something that you KNOW would suit every need is ideal, and is what I always personally strived for.
You said that it's "for little benefit", but how can you know? You don't know what's coming.

I stand by what I said regardless. Classic has been using custom systems since it adapted the NPC server and none of shown anything that justified using a custom system. It's been years, I don't care what's coming.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

It's been years, I don't care what's coming.

You're obviously very clueless about the history of the server.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

You're obviously very clueless about the history of the server.

Really? Prove to me otherwise about what has been going on that takes true advantage of a custom system.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Prove to me otherwise about what has been going on that takes true advantage of a custom system.

It's not about what has been made to show that one is beneficial, it's about the simple fact that not enough has ever been made to show this. Trying to claim that it is or isn't appropriate is unsupportable.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

It's not about what has been made to show that one is beneficial, it's about the simple fact that not enough has ever been made to show this. Trying to claim that it is or isn't appropriate is unsupportable.

I'm really not following anywhere you're trying to go with this. Classic has had the NPC server for a few years and all they have done is release custom system after custom system. There are quests and such that have been worked on, minor things like the map and all... but none justify the need to have a custom system over the default one. I don't care what's 'to come' because they have given me no reason to care, or even to believe there is anything big coming or such.

[-Ramirez-]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

There are quests and such that have been worked on, minor things like the map and all... but none justify the need to have a custom system over the default one. I don't care what's 'to come' because they have given me no reason to care, or even to believe there is anything big coming or such.

That's the point. What exists so far may not justify the need, but even if it doesn't, that doesn't mean it WON'T be justified. You saying that it definitively is NOT needed is invalid, because you cannot know yet.

This has strayed off topic, so I'm going to stop, even if you don't. For you to learn here: choose words more carefully.

[Crono]

Kat I can bet you this custom system is definitely NOT needed. How many years would you like to wait until I win?

[DarkCloud_PK]

There would need to be something ridiculously epic to come out of these custom systems to ever justify needing them. After being such a large component for classic's continuing failure, that would take a lot to justify them.

I don't really see that realistically coming about, not after the 4-5 year track record.

[Tyhm]

it sucks that you need to do this much work to, basically, carry a chicken outside of a level. :-P

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by -Ramirez-

That's the point. What exists so far may not justify the need, but even if it doesn't, that doesn't mean it WON'T be justified. You saying that it definitively is NOT needed is invalid, because you cannot know yet.

This has strayed off topic, so I'm going to stop, even if you don't. For you to learn here: choose words more carefully.

Nothing you said here has changed my mind. There's nothing for me to learn.