Facebook Graal

[Emera]

I think that the facebook tileset should be used for iClassic. It is much nicer.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Galdor

Well I guess I can relate, I used to love just that with the game Rune, it had an awesome combat system (expect for the abusive and overpowered jump swing) like parrying, blocking and you could even throw your weapon.
Graal on the other hand has to me always been about questing and exploring (just like zelda) and I would get extremely bored after a while with a server that just relied on pking/sparring.

If you like exploring log onto Valikorlia as that server has an almost infinite amount of content. I do it all the time.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

A "real" Graal server has no content, it's just pking/spar/chat. Sure servers forced themselves to have quests but I never considered that a part of gameplay. More of an obstacle. Despite what people say, quests were generally not fun at all and was a chore for new players.

Who's to say what a real Graal experience is when servers are occupying different specific niches?

When it comes to pking/spar/chat these are things offered by virtually every established Graal server that has ever existed. These are part of each server but they are not what makes a server what it is....
Under that logic you might aswell say a real Graal server is a server that allows you to customise your appearance and upload graphics.

I can only really vouch for what I believe is a "Classic" Graal experience, and again I understand that people do have varying ideas on this that depend on what their own experiences were based upon, which is nothing unexpected.
Applying this principle however, it was the questing which set the server apart.
Even throughout the more simplistic times before Tyhm revolutionised Classic it was still predominantly a questing game.

Has anyone ever considered why Graal is called Graal?
Graal is a French derivative of the word Grail, as in Holy Grail.
The main purpose behind the game was to find the 4 Graals and open the Golden Gate..... kindof like Zelda.
You cannot deny the Zelda aspect has attracted many people to this game.

[Crono]

By real I meant the generic default Graal servers we had that made up the majority of the playerlist in the early 2000's (basically up until around 2004).

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

By real I meant the generic default Graal servers we had that made up the majority of the playerlist in the early 2000's (basically up until around 2004).

I think you're confusing the word "real" with "core".
It's true that many of these early servers shared the same core elements under their more basic form compared to what we see today, but this wasn't the result of something intentional. This was largely down to Graal's development capabilities being more limited, and perhaps partly because of Graal being more open for any player to submit their own content.

I also don't believe questing was held in low regard by the majority, many of these servers did implement their own forms of it.

[Crono]

Perhaps I consider "core" to be the "real" Graal. The majority of our gameplay time was spent chatting and pking/sparring with the default system. iClassic provides this experience, to an extent anyway.

If anyone gave a rat's ass about questing Shaded Legends would have been a hit. Instead, despite questing content on a scale higher than anything else provided, it flopped.

[callimuc]

Originally Posted by Emera

I think that the facebook tileset should be used for iClassic. It is much nicer.

I think Stefan & CO just wants people to buy VIP at least once, because its way nicer (tileset, ...). They want to get people on VIP server but kind of fail at it. I don´t think they will add it to the iClassic.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

The majority of our gameplay time was spent chatting and pking/sparring with the default system.

Isn't this how it is on most multiplayer online games, and virtually all Graal servers except with different combat systems?
This is really just the inevitability of end-game or there being no other forms of solid content to occupy yourself.

History shows that as servers increase in numbers, the effects of these core elements sustaining a large playercount wear off.
This isn't purely because of competition though, this is because these forms of gameplay are simply a reflection of community interaction, and what iPhone does show is that playercount attracts playercount.
The exact same effect can be and probably would have been achieved on iPhone regardless of how the default combat system works, and regardless of the amount of solid content at hand.

[Crono]

Have you ever played a server outside of Classic?

Originally Posted by ffcmike

History shows that as servers increase in numbers, the effects of these core elements sustaining a large playercount wear off.

No, history does not show us this. Despite Graal's slow decay UN held onto its playercount and had an active pking and sparring community. Zodiac's core gameplay is the only thing sustaining the server.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

The exact same effect can be and probably would have been achieved on iPhone regardless of how the default combat system works, and regardless of the amount of solid content at hand.

Check out the playercount when the GST starts.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

Have you ever played a server outside of Classic?

What does it matter?
Does not attempting to play elsewhere mean it's unjustifiable for me to use observations of other servers playercounts among writings of those that have played them as evidence for an idea?

Originally Posted by Crono

No, history does not show us this. Despite Graal's slow decay UN held onto its playercount and had an active pking and sparring community.

Are you sure?
UNs population has benefited from the demise of Classic, Delteria, Npulse, aswell as an intake of iPhone refugees, and therefore pretty much has a monopoly over default style combat.
Yet for the last year or 2 it has shown a steady decline in numbers. Granted there are many contributing factors to decline of playercount but I still hear the same complaints of "there's not much to do".

I make no secret of my desire for there to be a Zelda style adventure game, but I can also see how such things as sparring/PKing/events etc are an important piece of the overall puzzle when it comes to one server among many succeeding.

Lets say that eventually Kingdoms, Zodiac and Zone were to move onto iPhone, it would be dangerous for iClassic to take these things for granted and rely upon them solely.
These forms of community interaction will be offered by multiple different servers and it's only a minority who will care about what combat system it is.

Anybody saying "nobody cares about quests" and "I spend all of my time sparring and PKing so that's all what matters" is simply being selfish.

Originally Posted by Crono

Zodiac's core gameplay is the only thing sustaining the server.

This kindof backs up my point, Zodiac is out-competing UN in terms of playercount, and has an entirely different combat system to default. It is a reflection of the community it has built up via its unique aspects.

Check out the playercount when the GST starts.

Check out the playercount after any organised server wide event.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

What does it matter?
Does not attempting to play elsewhere mean it's unjustifiable for me to use observations of other servers playercounts among writings of those that have played them as evidence for an idea?

It causes you to draw false conclusions.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

Are you sure?

Yes, I am sure.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

This kindof backs up my point, Zodiac is out-competing UN in terms of playercount, and has an entirely different combat system to default. It is a reflection of the community it has built up via its unique aspects.

There are other factors at work here than just gameplay. Hint: it's not quests.

In the end I think you completely missed the point I was making anyway. My point was that iClassic provides us with that "old" Graal gameplay (call it "core", "real", whatever). Quests are missing but nobody really cares.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Crono

It causes you to draw false conclusions.

Such as what?

Originally Posted by Crono

Yes, I am sure.

If UN has an active sparring and PKing community, then why is its playercount dropping whereas Era and Zodiac's fairly stable?
As bad as observer mode is, it's still better than not being able to save at all, and I can't say I've ever seen a legitimately new player head straight to a spar arena and begin sparring.

I also find a lot of old UN players, or pre-npcserver Classic players that once migrated to UN, logging onto Classic and expressing their discontent towards UN.
From these conversations I think it's clear to see there's a section of older players who wish to be able to spar, but without having to obtain hearts + sword/shield levels, or endure what are to them annoying weapon NPCs.
This is fair enough and even something Classic could possibly implement to an extent, but to then disregard everything else about a server and treat it as irrelevant is incredibly single-minded, you have to think about what will bring players to the server over others aswell as keep them on the server. I think the situation with UN backs this up.

Originally Posted by Crono

In the end I think you completely missed the point I was making anyway. My point was that iClassic provides us with that "old" Graal gameplay (call it "core", "real", whatever). Quests are missing but nobody really cares.

This is where I think you're missing the point that this is something part of any Graal server, but not what makes a Graal server what it is. To the older players who experienced Graal in its more simplistic times this probably works quite well, but I don't think this is much of a novelty to the majority of new iPhone players.

Also there's a lot of iPhone players who are begging for Quests, or infact any type of playable content.

[Emera]

WOW you guys calm down. But really Thor have you never played anything but classic?

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Crono

Have you ever played a server outside of Classic?

Drop the ad hominem.

Originally Posted by Crono

Yes, I am sure.

Respond to his reasoning, not to the hypothetical.

Originally Posted by Crono

In the end I think you completely missed the point I was making anyway. My point was that iClassic provides us with that "old" Graal gameplay (call it "core", "real", whatever).

You really think that you weren't kicking dirt on everyone who has put any effort into PC Classic? It really sounds like it here:

Originally Posted by Crono

[Facebook Graal is] better than Graal on the iPhone and better than Graal on PC if you're looking for a "real Graal" experience.

Yes, I am slightly irked as you can tell, but it reads to me like you were looking to start an argument, and then proceeded to try to discredit Thor, who has been responding in earnest. Sorry for bring this to the 'meta' level.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

You really think that you weren't kicking dirt on everyone who has put any effort into PC Classic? It really sounds like it here:

That's not how I see it one bit. He's saying he enjoys Classic on Facebook and for some reason (as much as you'd like to hide it with your fancy schmancy words) that triggers some emotional response from PC Classic's staff anytime it's said. Perhaps he was referring to Unholy Nation? The only classic-styled server that's on the server list at the moment. The whole world doesn't revolve around you and your fellow staff team, so please, don't flip your lid and act like it is.