Graalian Awards - LevelBuilder

[Mykel]

If you don't know what this is about read the Graalian Awards thread in the Main forum. But this is to vote for the LevelBuilder of the year!

[CripsTelvecho]

Spanky is going to win

[Aknts]

Originally posted by CripsTelvecho
Spanky is going to win

I honestly don't think so.

[Spark910]

Shame Wan is silenced here, as you cant see much of his work. But I voted for him as he is, in my opinion, Graals fastest working, most commited, most interesting, best level making players graal has seen, since I started playing.

[Eric_1337]

I truly havent seen much of draygin's(sp?) work. I do remember him though, didn't he make that one town in 2k1, that grungy(sp?) looking smaller town? I think he did make that, I thought that was a stroke of genius but that was also when I wasn't as good as I came to be before.

Wan is a very good friend of mine and I've talked to him a lot, working with him and lurking by him for his new projects to be completed. He is one of the best and fastest level makers most of you will ever see.

Now for justin(spanky). Just briefly I've gotten to know him more then I have ever gotten to know anyone from graal besides spencer(mmmmkay). He is a very very awesome level maker and I do think he is considered the best level maker there is today. He most definatly deserves this award.

But, I think you are missing out on atleast one, if not two level makers that should atleast have been nominated. If you really excluded this person from the nominations of this award, then you should not be holding it, becuase this person builds levels and has as much skill as Wan does. I don't see how you could forget Paradox. I'm starting to think this is more of a popularity award then a level making award... which I guess I can't blame you for forgetting some people from this list because they hide themselves from showing anything on these forums, and since you don't know them or their work they must not exist then, right?

If we were to have this award held about 4-5 months ago... spencer would take it hands down.

I've known all of these people besides draygin for a long time and I do think that my choice is the correct one.

[Milkdude99]

I know of ones that make better levels than these 3 , they just don't post here nor do many of you even know them but they have been on Graal for 3 years or better. Not always the best are well known , a fact you people seem to be missing here.

[Mykel]

Originally posted by Milkdude99
I know of ones that make better levels than these 3 , they just don't post here nor do many of you even know them but they have been on Graal for 3 years or better. Not always the best are well known , a fact you people seem to be missing here.

WE ARE NOT MISSING IT! We accept it. We know we can't get everyone, and people are going to disagree, you 'people' seem to be missing that.

[Ningnong]

*votes for wan*

I think he's the best level maker for many reasons, not only for speed but for quality. His levels are always different and look really good. Its not just with the default tile set, I remember him making a level for era and he somehow made it look different, very creative.

GO WAN !

*ehem*

Also:

Wan dosnt want any more of these childish best LAT stuff, the best LAT is unknown, and therefor will forever be unknown, you have your opinion, people have there's; dont share or make a poll, you decide in your opinion
who the 'Best LAT' is, -Thank's !Wan

Levels are different, corse they can be judged to a certain extent -wether or not they look like its been done as a sort of "half hearted try" or not, but everyone has thier own perspective and oppinions on how a level looks to them.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by Ningnong
*votes for wan*

I think he's the best level maker for many reasons, not only for speed but for quality. His levels are always different and look really good. Its not just with the default tile set, I remember him making a level for era and he somehow made it look different, very creative.

GO WAN !

*ehem*

Also:

Wan dosnt want any more of these childish best LAT stuff, the best LAT is unknown, and therefor will forever be unknown, you have your opinion, people have there's; dont share or make a poll, you decide in your opinion
who the 'Best LAT' is, -Thank's !Wan

Levels are different, corse they can be judged to a certain extent -wether or not they look like its been done as a sort of "half hearted try" or not, but everyone has thier own perspective and oppinions on how a level looks to them.

Tell wan to be quiet... he knows as well as I do that they're "The best" and "good"... you definatly tell the difference the level of skill that one player to another has... this skill determines who is the best. I don't care what anyone says, there is a line between "good" and "the best".

As for Milkdude99, would you mind sharing his name? I've been around for 2 years and if I've worked on almost every server possible to work on and have met many unique men and woman and have gotten to know a lot of people. I don't think I wouldn't know who he is if he is better then Spanky, I'm sure he has shown his face atleast a little and shown his skill to us atleast a little, and I would like to know his/her name.

[draygin]

I dont really agree that there can be a number one best. Because all level makers have their weaknesses. Like some are the best at inside levels. Others buildings, some outside level detailing. Now I do believe there can be a best at one part of level editing overall I dont think so.

Example. Spanky has some of the most awesome outside levels. But his inside levels (although they're good) are not on the same level as his outside skills. Just my two cents on the best level maker ordeal.

[Milkdude99]

"Her" name is Ducati and I doubt you have even heard of her.



btw most know my name , which is Moon God and not my account name and you haven't worked on Npulse or Teir Dal when it was up but then again Teir Dal was before your time.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by Milkdude99
"Her" name is Ducati and I doubt you have even heard of her.

Heh, as a matter of fact I almost knew you were going to say her name. One of the reasons why I said "him/her", I did used to work for her, I never did see any of her levels but I do know she is/used to work on N-Pulse ... Hmm... that had to have been 7-8 months ago when I was working for her on n-pulse, but I do know her, but haven't seen any of her work.

[Milkdude99]

Originally posted by Eric_1337


Heh, as a matter of fact I almost knew you were going to say her name. One of the reasons why I said "him/her", I did used to work for her, I never did see any of her levels but I do know she is/used to work on N-Pulse ... Hmm... that had to have been 7-8 months ago when I was working for her on n-pulse, but I do know her, but haven't seen any of her work.

She doesn't now, and was working on EOA but at the moment she and SaDiE are making a server and have been for 6 months. She makes the most amazing levels I have ever seen anyone make, what makes her different is the originality of them and they way she manipipulates tiles. An example of some of her work is the log flume she made for Npulse , its not her best work but a good example of things she can make not found on anywhere else on Graal.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by draygin
I dont really agree that there can be a number one best. Because all level makers have their weaknesses. Like some are the best at inside levels. Others buildings, some outside level detailing. Now I do believe there can be a best at one part of level editing overall I dont think so.

Example. Spanky has some of the most awesome outside levels. But his inside levels (although they're good) are not on the same level as his outside skills. Just my two cents on the best level maker ordeal.

I am looking at the over-all scope of someones cababilities... heres an example...

Wan Inside - 6/10
Wan outside - 8/10
Total = 14/20

Spanky Inside - 6/10
Spanky Outside - 10/10
Total = 16/20

Over-all Spanky would be better in this case... do you see what I mean? Just because he is weak at one part, over-all he is better. These are however just examples not a real scoring meathod.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by Milkdude99
She doesn't now, and was working on EOA but at the moment she and SaDiE are making a server and have been for 6 months.

I understand. Good-Luck to her

[Milkdude99]

The 3 listed are very good I agree but to say they are the best Graal has to offer is a point I must disagree on. Opinions are subjective as is taste; so to what one thinks is the best and that is related to style and the person’s objectivity of that style or all styles. A person will be partial to the taste they like and their opinion will lean toward that end.

[Kaimetsu]

It's pretty much impossible to identity a 'best' developer in any field other than scripting. Style is an important factor. Spanky puts lots of detail into his levels, and some people like that. Personally, I don't. I prefer grand architecture and easy of exploration to crowded minutia, but I recognise that everybody's entitled to their own standards.

What I like to see in levels is interactivity. NPCs that respond to your presence, or simply objects that the player can manipulate. Most people treat level making like it's just painting a picture, ignoring the fact that a person has to walk around in their creation.

[Mykel]

Yes, we realize this. And if I do this next year I will have a more broad selection crew.

'this was directed twards moon god'

[MadWolf]

Originally posted by Milkdude99
"Her" name is Ducati and I doubt you have even heard of her.



btw most know my name , which is Moon God and not my account name and you haven't worked on Npulse or Teir Dal when it was up but then again Teir Dal was before your time.

Yes the aussie, I used to be good friends with her before she started her career on N-Pulse as FAQ. Good ol' days.

[Golbez]

Um... I dont see Kronan nor Excalibur.... Wan sucks at levels btw o.o;; Mad is ok... but not the best. None of these are the best the best I'd say would be Excalibur or Kronan :O

[Aknts]

Originally posted by draygin
Example. Spanky's inside levels (although they're good) are not on the same level as his outside skills.

So true.

[Eric_1337]

But you guys don't seem to understand between quality and not. People have different levels of skill that they grow with experience obviously, you say it's impossible to declare the "best", but when there's different levels of skill it's easy to determine the "best", you may not think so but there is a way to determine the overall "best". If lets say, the great level makers that you obviously already stated are on this certain level, and then the best in on a completely different level... how can it not be that the best thats on that level isn't the best? I mean you people's way of thinking how can a **** be different from really good? How can you determine that from your way of thinking...

Oh, I just love a level with lots of errors and has no structure and the detail is real sloppy, so now I think someone i won't mention is the best level maker ever, put him on the list.

[tlf288]

Dude, you're reading the posts a little to deep. I think if you just read it without taking in so much deep thought you'll figure out what they were saying.

[Geno]

Spanky Son.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by tlf288
Dude, you're reading the posts a little to deep. I think if you just read it without taking in so much deep thought you'll figure out what they were saying.

you maybe right, but i truly believe there is a best. I do understand where you all are coming from, I drop it here and leave my opinions to myself.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by Eric_1337
But you guys don't seem to understand between quality and not. People have different levels of skill that they grow with experience obviously, you say it's impossible to declare the "best", but when there's different levels of skill it's easy to determine the "best", you may not think so but there is a way to determine the overall "best".

No. Spanky has skills in detailing levels, but I don't like excessive detail, so those skills are not a good thing to me. Personal criteria affect the weighting of skills, and thus distort the final rating.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu


No. Spanky has skills in detailing levels, but I don't like excessive detail, so those skills are not a good thing to me. Personal criteria affect the weighting of skills, and thus distort the final rating.

It will effect everyones skill rating. You're saying that you would prefer a plain grass level with a few flowers and a house and a trail over skillfull artwork detailing from cliffs to water to the origanality of the buildings. Anyone can make what you want, there is no skill needed for that.

[Milkdude99]

Originally posted by Eric_1337


It will effect everyones skill rating. You're saying that you would prefer a plain grass level with a few flowers and a house and a trail over skillfull artwork detailing from cliffs to water to the origanality of the buildings. Anyone can make what you want, there is no skill needed for that.

I lean to what Kai is saying here, he is not saying that a sparse detail is better rather many tend to overdo the detail like they are making a masterpiece painting. Which may look good till you try to navigate that level and cannot take a step without having to go over or around something. Too much detail only detracts from the overall objectivity of the intended concept.

Lets say you have a house on the level and you detail the surrounding area so much that all you look at is the detail and miss the point of the level which is the house not all the detail that surrounds it. A level can be great without overdoing the detail, a simplistic level offers much to pleasing the eye as well as ease of navigation. Balance is the key here, too much is not a good thing and is all we are trying to say. Most level makers tend to overdo the levels with detail.

[draygin]

Originally posted by Golbez
Um... I dont see Kronan nor Excalibur.... Wan sucks at levels btw o.o;; Mad is ok... but not the best. None of these are the best the best I'd say would be Excalibur or Kronan :O

Kronan? Oh boy thats funny.

Excalibur is decent but I don't think he's the best but definatly one of the better level makers.

Wan sucks at levels? Ok, I'm not going to knock your opinions but damn.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by Milkdude99
I lean to what Kai is saying here, he is not saying that a sparse detail is better rather many tend to overdo the detail like they are making a masterpiece painting. Which may look good till you try to navigate that level and cannot take a step without having to go over or around something. Too much detail only detracts from the overall objectivity of the intended concept.

Lets say you have a house on the level and you detail the surrounding area so much that all you look at is the detail and miss the point of the level which is the house not all the detail that surrounds it. A level can be great without overdoing the detail, a simplistic level offers much to pleasing the eye as well as ease of navigation. Balance is the key here, too much is not a good thing and is all we are trying to say. Most level makers tend to overdo the levels with detail.

most of the detail spanky uses are able to walk over... the only obstical are the cliffs, which he ususally makes a path so you are able to get to the destination of the level. Some people do over-do the levels, but those are usually the ones that aren't the best.

Level making is an art... what would be the point of grading the levels if it wasn't? The level that you can have fun playing in the most is the best? I think that we are looking for quality of how well it was built, having a fun level is indeed fun lol, but we aren't looking for fun in grading levels are we? We are looking for origanality, quality, creativity, structure, detailing. Structure and detailing may coinside with what you and kai are saying, but those are the only points you need to look for. Even when they do coinside, it takes a lot of skill to make a great structural level with the perfect amount of detailing. Most grass detailing doesn't block the player, for the reason of not getting anywhere.

All I hear now is "Cliffs are soo boring and are stupid and I hate them, blah blah blah"... well it takes skill to make them like some of us do.

I do understand what you are saying, I'm not saying I'm not, I just think that you're missing one of the most important part in grading a level, that's quality.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by draygin


Kronan? Oh boy thats funny.

Excalibur is decent but I don't think he's the best but definatly one of the better level makers.

Wan sucks at levels? Ok, I'm not going to knock your opinions but damn.

Well, Excalibur maybe good, I don't think he is one of the best. I'm sure he could get a lat job anywhere he pleased though.

Golbez, Lol, I don't want to say anymore then... 'hehe'.

[protagonist]

I don't like Wan's levels, they are cluttered. I thought haunter's levels were pretty good.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by protagonist
I don't like Wan's levels, they are cluttered. I thought haunter's levels were pretty good.

if he was still here, he would have been nominated.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by Eric_1337
It will effect everyones skill rating. You're saying that you would prefer a plain grass level with a few flowers and a house and a trail over skillfull artwork detailing from cliffs to water to the origanality of the buildings. Anyone can make what you want, there is no skill needed for that.

No, I was not saying that. Please be sure to both:

1) Read
2) Think

before posting. The type of levels you seem to like are horribly cluttered and the grainy 'detail' detracts from the structure and identity of the level itself. My personal preferences put Madmartigan above Spanky, and you'd be a fool to argue that those preferences are objectively wrong.

[Eric_1337]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu


No, I was not saying that. Please be sure to both:

1) Read
2) Think

before posting. The type of levels you seem to like are horribly cluttered and the grainy 'detail' detracts from the structure and identity of the level itself. My personal preferences put Madmartigan above Spanky, and you'd be a fool to argue that those preferences are objectively wrong.

Heh, you make a point... but there is a difference in the level of skill, and obviously everyone sees that because of the results in who won the award.

Although, since this is just a popularity contest, I guess we will never know officially.

[draygin]

Originally posted by Eric_1337


Heh, you make a point... but there is a difference in the level of skill, and obviously everyone sees that because of the results in who won the award.

Although, since this is just a popularity contest, I guess we will never know officially.

Difference in skills.

Really for an accurate contest it would have to be broken down.

Inside levels, outside levels, Town levels, Dungeon levels.


You could really keep going and going on different level making areas. Personally I excel in inside,town, and dungeon levels. But am weaker in outside detailing. Mostly because I find it so repetative and boring so I always half ass it or never really finish them. (Normally)

[Kaimetsu]

Originally posted by Eric_1337
Heh, you make a point... but there is a difference in the level of skill, and obviously everyone sees that because of the results in who won the award.

The people didn't base their votes purely on skill level. They applied personal preferences as modifiers, and thus skewed the objectivity.

[Snakeandy7]

I'd first like to say Congratulation spanky, Also, what happend to the other talented LAT's?