Release date for PlayerWorld hosting

[Nitkizi]

Originally posted by Milkdude99
Correct me if I am wrong but it looks to me like only 7 PWs will be playable at a time unless you have a Gold/VIP account and can play the ones in Group 3. Weird as it may sound , group 3 sounds like the catch all trash bin of waiting PWs to get to the visible list. So why would someone with a Gold / VIP account want to play those servers? Seems to me these are the ones that will get the least amount of traffic.

Koni, you took what I said wrong, that's what I mean. But, if those are the crap servers, why upgrade to play those, when you can play the top with with a trial?

However, I just realized that you will still not have your attributes saved while using a trial on it.

It just seems odd, you'd think you would want the BEST OF THE BEST servers invisible to those without the gold/vip accounts. Well, at least I get to see the crappy servers!

[konidias]

Originally posted by Milkdude99
Correct me if I am wrong but it looks to me like only 7 PWs will be playable at a time unless you have a Gold/VIP account and can play the ones in Group 3. Weird as it may sound , group 3 sounds like the catch all trash bin of waiting PWs to get to the visible list. So why would someone with a Gold / VIP account want to play those servers? Seems to me these are the ones that will get the least amount of traffic.

Group 3 is exactly what you claim it to be. It's basically the waiting list to get in to group 2. Thing is, I really don't think there would be more than 7 GOOD servers in all, so really, I think the plan is a good one. If you can't stay up with the top seven, you don't really deserve to be on the list I guess.

Although the Group 3 playerworlds don't necassarily have to have low playercounts, it all depends on the players. I'm sure I will check on the Group 3 playerworlds when I can, to see if there are any diamonds in the rough, so to speak. But really, if they are being checked monthly by PWA, there isn't really a point in worrying about players. If the PWA don't even class you in group 2, maybe you need to work harder on your playerworld, heh.

Getting players has nothing to do with Group 3. You're only auditioning your playerworld to the PWA. Once you get in group 2, where you're visible, that is where players will actually matter.

On the other hand, if you're a server who doesn't care about being in the top seven, then you can just pay the money, and stay in the third group, and then just try to get players via word of mouth or whatever.

[ETD]

Originally posted by konidias
On the other hand, if you're a server who doesn't care about being in the top seven, then you can just pay the money, and stay in the third group, and then just try to get players via word of mouth or whatever.

that wouldn't be so bad... exept then only gold, and VIP players could play your server...

the biggest problem i have is that most of my staff do not have upgraded accounts, or VIP... and a lot can't spend the money to do so... yet they have worked their butts off to make this world

[zrpgp2p]

I do like the way the system is set up, but I see one small problem. Servers that are in the 3rd area, will have alot of trouble getting help and improving themselves, because most people wont want to play there and/or work there. Unless the Manager himself/herself is going to make the server great I don't see much help being offered to those playerworlds.

[zrpgp2p]

Originally posted by Brett White


If you're not bother going to make the server good, then don't pay for it to go up.

Let me tell you a little secret. Servers just don't go up great, they are worked on while the are usually private.

[unixmad]

It's simple, we add each month 1 full free month to the Playerworlds in group 1 and 2, it mean if they go back to group 3 they will have the full time bought.

About the number of servers in group 1 and 2 we will perhaps change it if we have more quality servers or more players, but one of our goal is to push the quality of servers up, it mean less servers and more quality.

Originally posted by konidias


I understand this, but what happens to the playerworlds in the top seven, who haven't paid, when they fall below the top seven? Do they have to pay if they fall out of the ranking or what? Because I mean, you're switching them each month, meaning it could only take them a month to move back up in the top seven again, and it would be silly to make them pay 99 to 59 dollars just for one month.

I'm sure a few of the top seven will eventually fall below, so are they going to have to pay? I mean, that's kind of strange, it's like you have to pay no matter what really, unless you can maintain an extremely high point rating.

It seems like a constant battle to stay alive, heheh.

[unixmad]

Making Third group only for Gold/Vip is our way to pay costs, someone need to pay for the Bandwidth/hosting costs... If we let LifeTime or Trial access the third group then we have to make the price double or more...

And Vip is only $19 a year, it mean 1.5$ / month to be member of a game you play hours each week...

Originally posted by ETD

that wouldn't be so bad... exept then only gold, and VIP players could play your server...

the biggest problem i have is that most of my staff do not have upgraded accounts, or VIP... and a lot can't spend the money to do so... yet they have worked their butts off to make this world

[Soul-Blade]

Originally posted by Brett White


Hey, fool, let me tell you a secret, you can build a great playerworld OFFLINE, then still work on it when it gets up. Piece's of crap servers don't go up.

Hehe so true

Ok so anyway, what ever happened to the support system, for when people put in a playerworlds name when they upgrade??

This is all good and dandy for public PWs, but most of the quality PWs are being developed as a private server, unixmad. How can you push the quality up, if you do not give time for the quality servers to be developed?

Dunno, just think most people making a quality server put in so much time, they barely have time for anything else *cough* life *cough* so I do not see how it is right to make them pay for this. I realize someone needs to pay...but in the long run most of the private PWs are a investment in the future of graal, or in other words, the ammount of money graal makes. The people working so hard usually really get no benefits, other then the joy of working. And personally, I don't have the money to pay, and with the current schedule no time to get a job yet.

To sum it up: If this is applied to private worlds, then no, I cannot pay, and Shifting Ages will go offline, and all the days of work I have put into it will go in vain, and all the work others have put into it as well....because rather the loosing money to provide professional work, I would rather get a job and make money for the ammount of time I spend on this.

Surely, someone can see the logic in this .

[unixmad]

Like will say Stefan, That's life ...

Originally posted by Soul-Blade


Hehe so true

Ok so anyway, what ever happened to the support system, for when people put in a playerworlds name when they upgrade??

This is all good and dandy for public PWs, but most of the quality PWs are being developed as a private server, unixmad. How can you push the quality up, if you do not give time for the quality servers to be developed?

Dunno, just think most people making a quality server put in so much time, they barely have time for anything else *cough* life *cough* so I do not see how it is right to make them pay for this. I realize someone needs to pay...but in the long run most of the private PWs are a investment in the future of graal, or in other words, the ammount of money graal makes. The people working so hard usually really get no benefits, other then the joy of working. And personally, I don't have the money to pay, and with the current schedule no time to get a job yet.

To sum it up: If this is applied to private worlds, then no, I cannot pay, and Shifting Ages will go offline, and all the days of work I have put into it will go in vain, and all the work others have put into it as well....because rather the loosing money to provide professional work, I would rather get a job and make money for the ammount of time I spend on this.

Surely, someone can see the logic in this .

[brock128]

:|

I really don't like the "gold -> classic -> trial" system, but whatever.

[Spark910]

Originally posted by unixmad
Like will say Stefan, That's life ...

Well SB you have just said you can make a good PW offline. And considering one of the ways into the free gap is to let people or some people see what developments you are making to make it worth while, then you'll have to pay all the time until release.

And you say someone had to pay for bandwidth, cant you add something on top to allow other accnt types on [I already said this, dont know if I got a reply to it, will check that now]

[konidias]

Okay, now I understand most everything with this system. Only one thing that puzzles me. Once the first seven go up (assuming they don't have to pay to get in the top seven), EVERYONE is going to have to pay for their server.

I mean, if you're starting at the third group, and you have to pay to be in the 3rd group, then you're paying anyway. I didn't see anything about a playerworld automatically being in the top two groups, so that means you're having to pay initially anyway.

Is there still a way to earn some sort of profit through the points? So far I see you get free playerworld hosting and some benefits, but I see no mention of getting profit or anything. So I guess you cut that out or something? Maybe it could be done still, by doing the upgrading thing where people can select a playerworld they are mainly upgrading to play, and a bit of that money goes to them?

I just kind of see this as a severe approach to playerworlds. First it's pay to play, now it's pay to work? You're basically not really rewarding the pw managers if they don't get anything out of it besides "free hosting" which was already free to them in the first place before you made them pay, heheh.

It's like "Well you're going to have to pay for your playerworld, unless you work twice as hard as you used to, and you still get nothing out of it, doesn't that sound good?"

[Milkdude99]

Originally posted by ETD

that wouldn't be so bad... exept then only gold, and VIP players could play your server...

the biggest problem i have is that most of my staff do not have upgraded accounts, or VIP... and a lot can't spend the money to do so... yet they have worked their butts off to make this world

I think Unixmad already summed that up in his post ..

Originally posted by unixmad
Like will say Stefan, That's life ...

[Darlene159]

I just kind of see this as a severe approach to playerworlds. First it's pay to play, now it's pay to work? You're basically not really rewarding the pw managers if they don't get anything out of it besides "free hosting" which was already free to them in the first place before you made them pay, heheh.

I was trying to make this point elsewhere, and got told by an un-named person that us Managers dont do much, and we benefit from this plan far more than stefan/unixmad...lol, I would like to know how so?
Since p2p, us Managers (cant speak for all managers) have been busting our rumps trying to find staff when so many players have dropped off the face of the earth because they couldnt pay for whatever reason, only to find some semi-good staff, and they turn out to be totally corrupt, and think they are way above the rules because they are needed...Dont get me wrong, I have some good staff that do massive amounts of work for me, and I wouldnt know what to do without them...but scripters and level makers are extremely hard to come by, as well as GFX people. To be honest, I dont get much out of being a PW Manager anymore, I get players constantly complaining about lack of updates (rightfully so) because of lack of staff/good staff...and alot of the players are not nice with their complaints either, I have never seen such rude people in my life (and I have 3 teenage kids).
Now we have this new pay thing that is going to make us really kill ourselves to try and keep the PW at the top.
We have to ask ourselfs if this is really worth it anymore....I love graal, and I love Npulse, and I would do almost anything I could for both, but there is a limit, and I cannot devote every second of every day on npulse, and I cant put massive amounts of money into it either (buying accounts, paying to keep it up, website, etc....)

This is what this un-named person said to me:

"The reality is that a management position isn't really work. To most people it's a desirable position of power and status, like a trophy of sorts. Yes, playerworlds bring something to Graal. They provide places where cheapskate players can spend their time, but they don't need managers to do that."

Now, I ask you, is this what people think of us Managers? Is this all us Managers bring to Graal? Is this all the regular PW's that arent gold mean to Graal? If so, it isnt worth it to me............

[Johnny_5]

Theres already about 25 servers up (including the UC ones), so why would people want to buy these servers when its going to be close to impossible to get the top 7 spots. It makes no sence paying for a UC PW that only gold and VIP players can access when most of the people that play classic worlds dont have gold or vip. I wouldnt pay all that money for a world barely any one could play on.

[Milkdude99]

To touch base on what Moon Goddess said as well as konidias let me say this in this light. People have hobbies like Moonie and I it is Graal and people don't mind paying for their hobbies as long as they receive something in return from it . You derive different things from hobbies depending on the person and what they want from their hobby.

Some get a return of money from their hobby if it involves making something for retail sales; their reward is a good product and making money from it. Some hobbies you just get a satisfaction of a job well done from praise of your peers. Regardless of what your hobby is you have to get something back from it to justify keeping that hobby otherwise you will move on to another one that does give some sort of return back to you. Now as far as Graal and us, we worked on Npulse and got satisfaction of trying to make a good PW for others to enjoy as well as ourselves. The money paid out was minimal so it was considered a fair exchange for our hobby.

But lately it has caused nothing but stress due to the changes in Graal for the last year, there is no enjoyment in seeing good projects lay in waste for lack of good people to work on them. Nor is there any enjoyment that now Graal is digging deeper and deeper into everyone’s pockets. Money is only one of the issues, there has to be a return of something given back to those PW Managers who work so many hours to try to please their players and make a quality PW for people to play on. There is also no enjoyment in seeing a lack of rule enforcemment of Graal rules on all servers.All this does is handicap the servers who do by a lower player count, that seriously needs to change or we all will resort to ignoring Graal rules to increase our player count to stay up top.

It has come to the point where there has to be a give and take now from Graal to those who work for the betterment of this game (PW Managers and Global Staff) free hosting isn't going to cut the proverbial mustard, Graal is still receiving all the benefits here, not the ones who are working to make this happen and make Graal profitable.

[Milkdude99]

Originally posted by Johnny_5
Theres already about 25 servers up (including the UC ones), so why would people want to buy these servers when its going to be close to impossible to get the top 7 spots. It makes no sence paying for a UC PW that only gold and VIP players can access when most of the people that play classic worlds dont have gold or vip. I wouldnt pay all that money for a world barely any one could play on.

Thats the point of it , only the best need bother if it is not your desire to pay all along.

[Spark910]

Originally posted by Johnny_5
Theres already about 25 servers up (including the UC ones), so why would people want to buy these servers when its going to be close to impossible to get the top 7 spots. It makes no sence paying for a UC PW that only gold and VIP players can access when most of the people that play classic worlds dont have gold or vip. I wouldnt pay all that money for a world barely any one could play on.

Well the point system isnt that strong, it could be abused I agree, well not as much abused, but not work fairly or give equal opportunities.

[Soul-Blade]

Originally posted by unixmad
Like will say Stefan, That's life ...

What the hell are you talking about? Over the last years, I have busted my rear trying to make graal better, and the only one who has benefitted is you people. I work on debug, and the only one who benefits of GK. I work on my PW, and the only one who benefits is you people. I sometimes tell my friends I am busy when they want to go out and do something, because I want to get a piece of my work done, and you have the stupidity to say "Thats life"?! What is that supposed to mean? In other words you are saying
Hey EVERYONE! Why don't you PAY ME to make a PROFESSIONAL QUALITY GAME, which I will MAKE MONEY OFF OF...what about you guys? YOU GET TO PAY ME! HORRAY FOR YOU!

Give me a freakin break here, do you actually believe that is fair?! PW managers HAVE NEVER benefitted from doing free work, and to those making great PWs, slave work.
Now you have the nerve to charge them to work?!

No. I won't work. I have already done everything I can offline, that is why I said "Hehe so true" because I made something good offline.

This system needs some serious changes, else this system will loose the most promising PWs graal has to offer.

[Neoreno]

Where will the official servers in this go, I.E Bomy Moon, Kingdoms and The Adventure?

I don't see how they can be applied to the system. Will they have a permanent residence in the gold/classic section?

[Soul-Blade]

Originally posted by Soul-Blade


Stuff

Ugh, sorry. I really do see the point of this now that I look at it, it is to filter out low quality worlds. And thinking about it, it is a rather good way to do that. It is just fustrating, so sorry about what I said above.

[Darlene159]

Originally posted by Soul-Blade


Ugh, sorry. I really do see the point of this now that I look at it, it is to filter out low quality worlds. And thinking about it, it is a rather good way to do that. It is just fustrating, so sorry about what I said above.

Bull, low quality player worlds can be filtered out by the PWA or other means....they dont have to charge for that to happen

[cloudstrifevii]

Originally posted by Darlene159
Bull, low quality player worlds can be filtered out by the PWA or other means....they dont have to charge for that to happen

Didn't you leave? o.0

[superb]

This will be the downfall of Graal. You just wait and see. It's defintitely not going to help business in the long run. It will be a temporary fix at BEST. Then everything will go to **** all over again.

[Darlene159]

Originally posted by cloudstrifevii

Didn't you leave? o.0

Does this have something to do with the subject at hand?
No it doesnt, and no I didnt leave

[superb]

She said she was going to, but changed her mind because she couldn't make herself do it.. There's a strong connection to this forum...

I seriously hope this plan is revised. It seems more geared to what will line unixmad's pockets than what is actually going to benefit the players. Yes, if done correctly this will increase the quality of playerworlds. The problem is, I don't see it working in the long run. I do see some good things that will come out of it, but overall I think this will hurt business and drive away the playerbase. You think it's bad now...wait 6 months after this is in effect. If Graal flourishes, I will eat my hat and keep quiet. I seriously doubt this is going to help Graal though. It's just going to give unixmad some
short-lived economic stimulus.

Hey...by the way, what is going to happen to Graal 2000 when this comes into effect? Many forget that is also an official world. About 40 people play it regularly...not counting the trial accounts

[Milkdude99]

Originally posted by cloudstrifevii

Didn't you leave? o.0

She left the Modship of the Forum and it has nothing to do with the topic.

[Darlene159]

superb, awhile back I quit the forums, but came back....I just quit the mod part, and this still has NOTHING to do with this topic

[superb]

I know...You only quit for a couple of days. That's what I was saying. You said something like that you tried to quit, but you couldn't.

[Milkdude99]

Originally posted by superb
She said she was going to, but changed her mind because she couldn't make herself do it.. There's a strong connection to this forum...

I seriously hope this plan is revised. It seems more geared to what will line unixmad's pockets than what is actually going to benefit the players. Yes, if done correctly this will increase the quality of playerworlds. The problem is, I don't see it working in the long run. I do see some good things that will come out of it, but overall I think this will hurt business and drive away the playerbase. You think it's bad now...wait 6 months after this is in effect. If Graal flourishes, I will eat my hat and keep quiet. I seriously doubt this is going to help Graal though. It's just going to give unixmad some
short-lived economic stimulus.

Hey...by the way, what is going to happen to Graal 2000 when this comes into effect? Many forget that is also an official world. About 40 people play it regularly...not counting the trial accounts

Its not going to increase quality of the PlayerWorlds if the ones making them quit due to it will cost them more than it's worth to do it. Again I will say people in Management from PW Managers to Global Staff need to get something in return for their efforts or it is simply not worth it anymore. What is being described here is more and more time and money just to stay on the free hosting, true Graal will benefit but Graal is the only one that will benefit from this (other than the players). The entire backbone of Graal PW Management and Globals are being left out in the cold.

The reason so many leave Graal is it simply gets to the point that all their years of time and efforts haven't benefited them at all, there is no benefit nor satisfaction of dealing with complaints, problems with players day in and out for long periods of time. It's a lot of stress and a very thankless job to have, especially since there is no visible means of getting anything out of it other than more grief and pay out more money. Having a PW on top for bragging rights seems like a small payment for the 100's of hours it takes to get it there. In fact it is more of a hassle that a pleasure to be there, more players mean you need more Staff to handle them and finding good Staff is not an easy task. I see more problems here than any real solutions to the existing problems Graal has always had, which are too numerous to start listing here.

[zrpgp2p]

Originally posted by Brett White


Hey, fool, let me tell you a secret, you can build a great playerworld OFFLINE, then still work on it when it gets up. Piece's of crap servers don't go up.

So according to you Era is a piece of crap...

Amazing how much that dosent make sense.

[superb]

Era IS a piece of crap, but that's not completely relevent to this discussion. I'm more concerned as to what this means to Graal 2000

[zrpgp2p]

Originally posted by superb
Era IS a piece of crap, but that's not completely relevent to this discussion. I'm more concerned as to what this means to Graal 2000

If it's so bad, I wonder how it stays at the top of the serverlist.

[superb]

I'm not denying that people like it. I just don't see why they like it so much.

[ZanderX]

Originally posted by superb

I seriously hope this plan is revised. It seems more geared to what will line unixmad's pockets than what is actually going to benefit the players. Yes, if done correctly this will increase the quality of playerworlds. The problem is, I don't see it working in the long run. I do see some good things that will come out of it, but overall I think this will hurt business and drive away the playerbase. You think it's bad now...wait 6 months after this is in effect. If Graal flourishes, I will eat my hat and keep quiet. I seriously doubt this is going to help Graal though. It's just going to give unixmad some
short-lived economic stimulus.

Try running a business like Graal and benefiting the players while keeping the service running at least partly smoothly. Until then, put a sock in it.

[superb]

Just because you don't like what I have to say doeesn't give you any right to tell me to stop talking. I'll speak my mind when I see fit.

[ZanderX]

Originally posted by superb
Just because you don't like what I have to say doeesn't give you any right to tell me to stop talking. I'll speak my mind when I see fit.

Okay. Your mind is defective though, that's all.

[superb]

Fair enough mate! I never said I was sane now did I? :P

[unixmad]

What you say is true for most hobbies, try to manage a football team, you will see how mush reward you will have, not a lot, most people come to you to complain but never come to say they are happy or give a little "thanks".

When I made the thread to speak about Player World hosting, 90% of the messages were related to price not functionality. Our minimum cost for a Graal server is ~$120 a month if we want to give Npcserver/g-server/Tools, enough memory to make a good server, no limit on the bandwidth, the Human time to make this service (Administration, support, Web tools ...) .

Player World owner doesn't want to pay more than $10 a month, so there is $110 to find. Right now Lifetime Classic Players have ~ 7 real server to play with (if we don't count PlayerWorld that are not finished), so what's wrong when we say to Lifetime CLassic Players, we give you the same number of servers free to play and we ask $1.5/month to be VIP and help paying costs for all the other new servers ?

Now there is something "strange" in your message, you complain on Graal "digging deeper and deeper into everyone’s pockets" and you want money for you ?

Why do you think we are the only Online game to make a lifetime subscription for $29 ($19 before) ? Because this "business" model give you back in your pocket just a few dollar and you can only pay costs because there is new Players that pay for the old one. It mean that if now we have to give a share on this few dollars to all PlayerWorld Owners, we go on the wall.

If Npulse or some Other PlayerWorld owner want to receive money, I am not against it, but it will have to be a subscription based game like is Graal Kingdoms.

Now about the general discussion, is it the good solution to threaten us to optain something ? Isn't it better to open a nice thread and speak before threatening ? The PlayerWorld thread was done for that ...

It was not in my idea to ask actual PlayerWorld to pay, but is it really fair to officialy announce that some will pay and some other will not ?

Originally posted by Milkdude99
To touch base on what Moon Goddess said as well as konidias let me say this in this light. People have hobbies like Moonie and I it is Graal and people don't mind paying for their hobbies as long as they receive something in return from it . You derive different things from hobbies depending on the person and what they want from their hobby.

Some get a return of money from their hobby if it involves making something for retail sales; their reward is a good product and making money from it. Some hobbies you just get a satisfaction of a job well done from praise of your peers. Regardless of what your hobby is you have to get something back from it to justify keeping that hobby otherwise you will move on to another one that does give some sort of return back to you. Now as far as Graal and us, we worked on Npulse and got satisfaction of trying to make a good PW for others to enjoy as well as ourselves. The money paid out was minimal so it was considered a fair exchange for our hobby.

But lately it has caused nothing but stress due to the changes in Graal for the last year, there is no enjoyment in seeing good projects lay in waste for lack of good people to work on them. Nor is there any enjoyment that now Graal is digging deeper and deeper into everyone’s pockets. Money is only one of the issues, there has to be a return of something given back to those PW Managers who work so many hours to try to please their players and make a quality PW for people to play on. There is also no enjoyment in seeing a lack of rule enforcemment of Graal rules on all servers.All this does is handicap the servers who do by a lower player count, that seriously needs to change or we all will resort to ignoring Graal rules to increase our player count to stay up top.

It has come to the point where there has to be a give and take now from Graal to those who work for the betterment of this game (PW Managers and Global Staff) free hosting isn't going to cut the proverbial mustard, Graal is still receiving all the benefits here, not the ones who are working to make this happen and make Graal profitable.

[unixmad]

That's a fair way to open a discussion, it reming me the techniques from trade union people to make everyone go on strike.

"Guys! Your boss make money from you and you are the one that make the real work, go on strike and you will see who make the real work"

About "So many leaving Graal" , some go , some new come and some old one come back, it's the normal life of a community. That's perhaps not the case on Npulse but what is sure is the number of Graal player increase and not decrease.

If you think Graal have a problem because some people put there time for some others then lot of other community have problems including all the open source community, games like Half Life, Quake …

If like you say Graal is a Hobby then reward must not be focused on Money, isn't it?

Originally posted by Milkdude99
Its not going to increase quality of the PlayerWorlds if the ones making them quit due to it will cost them more than it's worth to do it. Again I will say people in Management from PW Managers to Global Staff need to get something in return for their efforts or it is simply not worth it anymore. What is being described here is more and more time and money just to stay on the free hosting, true Graal will benefit but Graal is the only one that will benefit from this (other than the players). The entire backbone of Graal PW Management and Globals are being left out in the cold.

The reason so many leave Graal is it simply gets to the point that all their years of time and efforts haven't benefited them at all, there is no benefit nor satisfaction of dealing with complaints, problems with players day in and out for long periods of time. It's a lot of stress and a very thankless job to have, especially since there is no visible means of getting anything out of it other than more grief and pay out more money. Having a PW on top for bragging rights seems like a small payment for the 100's of hours it takes to get it there. In fact it is more of a hassle that a pleasure to be there, more players mean you need more Staff to handle them and finding good Staff is not an easy task. I see more problems here than any real solutions to the existing problems Graal has always had, which are too numerous to start listing here.