Rule or not?

[mhermher]

Well, posting PM's RC logs, AIM/MSN/YIM/whatever should be illegal in this forums, since they are private!


PM = Private message!

They should be illegal.

[draygin]

Yes illegal unless they have permission from both the sender and the recipient.

[Kinatt]

No I believe it should be legal, you should know who your talking to its called private message because its only to that user specifically not because its against the rules to publically announce it.

[zell12]

Its in the Code of Conduct, and I think I seen it somewhere else, its illegal.

[--Chris--]

First of all...I think that rule is extremely retarded...the only things that could make something like that harmful in any way at all is if it contains personal imformation, swears etc or if both parties don't agree about posting the information.

You interpreted the word "Private" in "Private Message" too literally Mh. It means that the conversation is only between you and the other person you're talking too aka not public. It doesn't neccessarily mean what you're talking about is confiential information, that's why I said the rule is extremely retarded.

liek wts copyright0rzness teh convo

[Moblojoe]

Originally posted by --Chris--
First of all...I think that rule is extremely retarded...the only things that could make something like that harmful in any way at all is if it contains personal imformation, swears etc or if both parties don't agree about posting the information.

You interpreted the word "Private" in "Private Message" too literally Mh. It means that the conversation is only between you and the other person you're talking too aka not public. It doesn't neccessarily mean what you're talking about is confiential information, that's why I said the rule is extremely retarded.

liek wts copyright0rzness teh convo

I agree with you completly, Chris. It is a very stupid rule and i'm not gonna post my reasons because you have already posted everyone of them, lol

[SingleChance]

Originally posted by --Chris--
You interpreted the word "Private" in "Private Message" too literally Mh. It means that the conversation is only between you and the other person you're talking too aka not public.

which is exactly why it should not be posted on the forums for the public to see.

[Darlene159]

It is illegal

[Moblojoe]

Originally posted by Darlene159
It is illegal

Uhh yeah obviously =/

[ETD]

I know comparing something in a game to real life doesn't always work...

but anyways, say someone told me something ir/l, and then i am sitting around with my friends, and i'm like "oh yea, and ___ told me ___"

is that so bad? i'm basically saying that it should be up to the person getting the PM wiether or not to tell others... and it is up to the sender to trust that person not to show others (if it's that important)

i mean, i don't see the big deal about it... because as far as i care, people can post their history with me whenever they want, cuz i don't tell people things that i wouldn't want the whole world to know... because expecting privacy online is stupid, and will most likely never happen.

what are you going to say in a PM that you wouldn't want posted? talking about someone behind their back? keeping secrites? (sp?), or are you admitting to breaking the rules?

like what was said before... as long as it does not break the 'personal information' rule and stuff, i don't see a problem with it

(sorry i went in circles in this post)

[Darlene159]

Originally posted by ETD
I know comparing something in a game to real life doesn't always work...

but anyways, say someone told me something ir/l, and then i am sitting around with my friends, and i'm like "oh yea, and ___ told me ___"

is that so bad? i'm basically saying that it should be up to the person getting the PM wiether or not to tell others... and it is up to the sender to trust that person not to show others (if it's that important)

i mean, i don't see the big deal about it... because as far as i care, people can post their history with me whenever they want, cuz i don't tell people things that i wouldn't want the whole world to know... because expecting privacy online is stupid, and will most likely never happen.

what are you going to say in a PM that you wouldn't want posted? talking about someone behind their back? keeping secrites? (sp?), or are you admitting to breaking the rules?

like what was said before... as long as it does not break the 'personal information' rule and stuff, i don't see a problem with it

(sorry i went in circles in this post)

To start with, AIM, MSN, ICQ, etc......have nothing to do with graal and people have no right posting what is said on those, on the forums.
As far as PM's and RC...In general, people only post that stuff to start a flame war, which is against the rules, and stupid...there are steps to take to take care of problem staff/players, and it isnt to post everything on the forums...when has open flaming a person for something they said ever made a problem better?.............never
What is said on RC is suppose to be among staff, unless it is illegal in some way or whatever, then it is to be sent to the appropriate administration, not on the forums

[_0AfTeRsHoCk0_]

Negative

If you tell someone something at school like "Oh today I bought a new game, it's blah blah" you run the risk of this person telling their friends and acquaintances and so forth. Is that illegal? Heh, didn't think so. So what's the difference on Graal? If I speak with someone in private messages then I run the risk of them telling a whole bunch of other people like you guys on the forums. Of course, I would expect the person has enough respect that they won't go yapping their mouthes off about everything we said, but that's something I have to deal with on a person level, not a legal one.

If we cannot post direct excerpts of legitimate conversations or messages, then how are we going to keep the upstanding Graalian tradition of exploiting bad staffers, pointing out things people say in mass messages, making our lives easier and most exclusively of all, proving our points by pointing to logs with are authentic.

Putting censorship on logs of anything is a terrrible mistake that will soon be regretted. It's just peoples excuses of having the bad things they sayblocked out to protect them under the guise of the "code of conduct"

I'm very dissapointed in this community lately. Never in my life, online or otherwise, have I seen such scrutiny and literal interpretation of stupid little paragraphs that we usually all just click the "I accept button" on almost immediately in any program we install or community we participate in.

[ETD]

sometimes the 'administration' does not listen, or does not do anything about problems, so people bring things to the forums to get them noticed.

also, i don't see why making a rule spicifically about IM should matter... if it is posted, then it should be taken as it is... why try to stop it? i mean, if the person said it, they should be held responcible for what they have said, even if it was to only one person... even if it was off graal.

Do little graal characters run servers? NO, PEOPLE do... so that is why i think that non-graal things should be taken into account when regarding staff... because a person is a person, when you hire staff, you hire that player, not their graal character (at least in my mind anyways), and so if that person does something that would bring his/her job into question (if it were said on graal), then i don't see why it should be ignored, just because it was off graal?
(i'm just talking about in general)

anyways, everyone has their own opinions

*edit* Aftershock... you said everything i wish i had the organization to say
=0
good job, i agree 100%

[I_Eat_Plastic]

I know who does that.. =/ *looks around*
I've been fired once for something like that. *looks around*
I think i should end this reply now.. *looks around*

[TifaKhan]

I voted yes.
As far as aim or msn that doesnt have anything to do with Graal i was told.
What is said there cannot be held against you unless your threatening a server.

[Darlene159]

I can see it now........all kinds of histories posted all over the place that has been edited to look like something it wasnt, or half histories that do the same....histories posted everywhere that erupt in flame wars, arguements.
These forums have become nothing more than a huge flame fest lately.
These are the reasons it is wrong, not that anyone will agree but thats my opinion.
Someone posts RC history, others post "omg, he is so corrupt" and so on it goes......not even knowing if the history posted is correct or not, but it's posted so people believe it.
Same goes with AIM, MSN or some other chat program, except the difference is, it cant be used against you on Graal, but it is.

I said that it is illegal because I read somewhere that it is illegal to post such things, as it should be for all the reasons that I have given.
There are too many people who play graal that only want to start something, and what better way to do it then to post history (true or fake)?

[Darlene159]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu
Question for the people who say the rule should be made: To what extent does this go? Should it also be made illegal to give logs to admins, for example? If somebody admits to illegal activities, should it be against the rules to hand over the log to Unixmad? Where do you draw the line?

We are talking about posting that stuff on the forums....the whole point is, if it is about corruptness or whatever, it should be taken up with higher officials (Nemesis, Stefan, Unixmad), not posted here in the forums, and if it isnt about something illegal, it shouldnt be posted anyway because 9 times out of 10, it is posted to start something

[mhermher]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu


Okay, then people should not be protesting about breaches of privacy; if you endorse the sharing of logs with some people then it is hypocritical to restrict them from others purely for privacy's sake.

With that out of the way: Why should posting logs be illegal?

Same with RC chat.. RC chat is made so RC's can chat, not so the public can.. there is mass message, and if i was on RC, i don't want a staff to go post the logs

[draygin]

Because what is said in RC is none of the publics business. However with admins it is there business and part of managment. So with that in mind logs should never be shown to some one in a lower position than yourself it should only be shown higher up in the chain of command if at all. Because all posting on the forums and other public places is just an attempt at flaming and making some one look bad. Often times witht he individuals taking things out of context or not showing all of the logs. As staff people expect high ups to be informed if they do something bad. But they dont expect to have everything they say set up into a flame and bash fest for all the little graalians who take such pride and joy in it even when most times its no ones concern except the staff of that playerworld and they will be punished as seen fit.

To some extent it is privacy. I might have some one pming me with crap and just generally being a nuisance I might make some mention of not liking this individual. However I'm not going to go announce it to the whole person because they would be offended and just annoy and spam me more. Or perhaps one person is suspected of something and I announce it in RC to keep an eye out. It turns he is innocent he would have never known, except some idiot posted logs of it and now this individual gets all offended and does who knows what anything from quitting that server, quitting graal, harassing staff, possibly even not liking this person because of an honest mistake, or possibly nothing at all. The possibilties are really endless.

There are lots of different examples of why not this is just the first one that comes to mind and I dont care to list them all.

[ETD]

First of all, thinking that something you say to someone can be considered privacy is stupid.

If you tell someone something, then YES, you run the risk of them telling others...

Someone can fake a PM history, just as easily as they can lie about what you have said... it's just about the same thing.

Also, you forget that creating threads of that nature still would be illigal on the forums... meaning that histories would not be used to start 'flame wars', since the 'flame wars' themselves are against the rules.

now, i agree that RC logs should never be posted... I mean, RC is RC... ment for staff only, it would only make sence. But when it comes to personal messages, i don't see why not, since the person could easily say "_____ told me _____" anyways, why not just post the history too? doesn't make much of a difference.

anyways, just my thoughts

[draygin]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu


This idea where something is either your business or not is completely invalid. Until you can define it in a practical and meaningful way, it is inadmissable.



Not always. Often it is to get opinions on a matter or to publicise an important issue. Should we ban all logs just because they are sometimes used in a bad way? Sometimes people make bad posts on the forums - should we make a rule saying that posting is illegal?

I vote that our handling of the matter should depend on the content of the log.

Let me define it then perhaps. If it involves you its your business. If it doesnt involve you then its not.

I agree that the content of the log is a major factor in it and in some cases such as when people posting it in memories of good times it might be a different case. But when I look at the majority of RC logs posted I see people with no purpose other than to flame others regardless if its illegal or not often times they get away with it. Then at worst the file is locked so every one can still read it mission is still accomplished.

Inregards to ETD and pm history I dont really care about pm's since I dont really use them any how.

[Darlene159]

It has nothing to do with privacy..it has everything to do with people being allowed to start threads for flaming, which are not being closed....A big point is that logs can be edited to say whatever you want, then there is a bunch of arguing about who said what, and is one persons word against the other...and you have 2 people arguing back and forth trying to defend themselves.
If there is a problem with managers, logs, and proof should be sent to higher ups just like I said, not posted here for obvious reasons with the exception of putting it in the managers forum, I see no problem with that.

[SingleChance]

I agree with Moon Goddess.
It's not about privacy, it's about starting arguments.

By giving logs to an admin they can take care of the problem themselves.
By posting logs on the forums where people who don't have the power to take care of the problem can see them it will only lead to arguments, flaming etc.

[draygin]

Originally posted by Kaimetsu
Fine, but that doesn't justify your apparent assumption that people should only know about things that involve them.

No I'm not making the assumption that people should only know about things that dont involve them. Just in how the matter is presented. To put it in the matter of how it is normally handled reflects negativly on the server staff and graal itself. When there are much more diplomatic ways of handling these things such as a general announcment and what not.

As for the rest of your post I'd have to say that works for me. Especially about how Mod's deal with problems (not all mods of course)

[_0AfTeRsHoCk0_]

Posting logs is such a rare occourence on these forums and it isn't even a concern when it comes to flame wars. It's like making a curfew so that no one can go out after midnight just because there are troublemakers, break ins or murders at that time. It's ludicrous.

As for faking logs, when you tell Joe Schmoe that you bought a video game, Joe Schmoe can just as easily tell his friend that you didn't buy a video game. What's the difference between someone posting on these forums a log (which COULD be fraudulent, but most likely isn't) and taking someones word for it that this and this happened on server X.

People who don't want logs posted on these forums are still sticking to the concept that censoring and slapping on more rules and limits will make these forums a better place overall. And hey, when we have absolutely nothing to talk about, I bet they're right. I can't believe people are still posting the most unrealistic and unimaginable concepts for these forums and people actually take them seriously and want to make them rules. Just step back and look at what you're arguing over to implement.

[daboo]

What's with ya'll goldbies always trying to get other people in trouble? Us classic players may hate each others guts, call each other "n00bs", and PK like crazy, but at least we don't go out of our way to get everyone banned. Calm the hell down, mellow out.

[draygin]

Originally posted by daboo
What's with ya'll goldbies always trying to get other people in trouble? Us classic players may hate each others guts, call each other "n00bs", and PK like crazy, but at least we don't go out of our way to get everyone banned. Calm the hell down, mellow out.

Goldbie thats the stupidest term I've heard in a long time. First off you your self are a "Goldbie"

Second of all if you're referring to gold servers many of the people here dont play on the gold servers some of us dont even play at all except for very rare occasions.

[ETD]

Originally posted by daboo
What's with ya'll goldbies always trying to get other people in trouble? Us classic players may hate each others guts, call each other "n00bs", and PK like crazy, but at least we don't go out of our way to get everyone banned. Calm the hell down, mellow out.

what does this have ANYTHING to do with the topic?
0.o'


@Moonie - If there is a problem with flaming, then they can deal with it... we aren't talking about making flaming, and bashing legal, we're talking about PM, and RC logs... if they were made legal to post, then mod's could still ban people for flamming just the same... posting logs shouldn't change the amount of flaming, and bashing, since the rules for that would stay the same..


@Aftershock..... exactly!

@everyone... *points to what Aftershock said*

[galen]

Now I don't know if there's an actual Graal ruls about mosting logs and whatnot, but from my experience, if you don't want something known by the public masses...DON'T TELL ANYONE. It's just like telling your friend as school you have a crrush on person X and before you know it, there's rumors all over school. There's no such thing as absolute privacy unless you don't tell others things no one was ment to know.