Congratulations! You broke roleplaying!

feivel · #1 11-10-2002, 12:51 PM

If there is an army, and each person when they die they immediatly come back to life in the same condition that they were before they got killed, everoyne will have one hundred percent moral and fight to the death because they have no reason to retreat because death has no penalties. therefore until it is changed that kingdom mode is like battle mode but set only to experience loss, Bakugun will not participte in anyhting. Also item loss is dumb, cus I can just put all my items except for weapons in my house and then go fight cus duuuh then i cant lose any weapons. and this peaceful half exp gain not lose any exp, thats bullcrap. gaining exp, but not being penalized for dieng will make it so it takes no skill to gain exp, cus people will fight blindly and make stupid moves while fighting cus hey if you die no big deal, this is totally ****ed up.

Kaimetsu · #2 11-10-2002, 01:02 PM

Hmm. I don't think people should lose stuff for dying in kingdom wars, or they'll just decide it's not worth the losses. But they should probably be unable to fight again for some time after dying.

feivel · #3 11-10-2002, 01:08 PM

WHAT NOBODY SEEMS TO ****ING GET IS THAT THE WHOLE POINT IS PEOPLE WILL OBVIOUSLY THINK DYING ISNT WORTH THE LOSS, THAT IS WHY IN A WAR PEOPLE WILL USE TACTICS TO FIGHT INSTEAD OF RUSHING BLINDLY HEAD ON. ALSO IF THEY ARE ABOUT TO DIE THEN THEN ARMY WILL ROUTE INSTEAD OF DIENG AND RESPAWNING AND FIGHTING AGAIN. ALSO PLACING THEM FAR AWAY DOESNT HELP BECAUSE WHEN THE WAR IS OVER THAT LEVEL 10 GUY WHO GOT KILLED 5 TIMES, IS STILL LEVEL 10 THEREFORE THE ENEMY DIDNT SUFFER AT ALL ON AN INDAVIDUAL LEVEL, AND THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF A WAR, TO CRIPPLE THEIR ARMY, NOT TO KILL THEM ONLY TO HAVE THEM BE ****ING RESSURECTED LIKE THAT. AND BECAUSE OF THAT PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT UNREALISTICALLY BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT NO MATTER WHAT THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR DIENG. THE WHOLE POINT OF 2K1 WAS FOR ROLEPLAYING, WITH THE NEW SYSTEM IT IS EXACTLY LIKE 2K1, PEOPLE DIENG AND THEN COMING BACK AND DIENG AND COMING BACK AND RUSHING BLIDNLY INTO BATTLE, NOT ONYL THAT PUT NOW YOUCAN FIGHT IN DUNGEONS WITH PEACEFUL ON AND NOT LOSE ANY EXP AT ALL, STEFAN YOU JUST TURNED 2K2 INTO 2K1 WITH A HANDICAP, I KNOW IT WASNT YOUR INTENT BUT YOU JUST ****ED 2K2 STRIAGHT UP THE ASS. IF THIS ISNT CHANGED I MIGHT QUIT, AND I HATE TO SAY THIS BUT ITS TRUE.

Kaimetsu · #4 11-10-2002, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by feivel
WHAT NOBODY SEEMS TO ****ING GET IS THAT THE WHOLE POINT IS PEOPLE WILL OBVIOUSLY THINK DYING ISNT WORTH THE LOSS, THAT IS WHY IN A WAR PEOPLE WILL USE TACTICS TO FIGHT INSTEAD OF RUSHING BLINDLY HEAD ON.

No, there is already enough incentive not to die. Look at Counterstrike or Unreal2K3; nobody enjoys dying in those, even though the penalties are negligible. But if you told everybody in those games that they'd lose something important to them every time they died then nobody would play them. Sure, instant lossless respawning is bad, but a world where nobody dares fight kingdom battles is even worse.

Quote:

ALSO PLACING THEM FAR AWAY DOESNT HELP BECAUSE WHEN THE WAR IS OVER THAT LEVEL 10 GUY WHO GOT KILLED 5 TIMES, IS STILL LEVEL 10 THEREFORE THE ENEMY DIDNT SUFFER AT ALL ON AN INDAVIDUAL LEVEL, AND THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF A WAR, TO CRIPPLE THEIR ARMY, NOT TO KILL THEM ONLY TO HAVE THEM BE ****ING RESSURECTED LIKE THAT.

This is roleplaying, man. Again, nobody wants their side to lose so they're disappointed if they fail. Also, if they're overwhelmed by the other side then the enemy might raid the castle and steal stuff or whatever. That impacts on every member of the kingdom, not just the people fighting, so there's a real incentive to fight in these battles.

feivel · #5 11-10-2002, 01:25 PM

That is why you make it so that the losses are not so much, but enough to make the person want to run away when they are losing, maybe no one ****ing gets it but the whole point is if you are going to die then you dont want to lose exp so you run away or you run far enough to heal, but of course its always easier for the graalians to just let themselvees get killed and cry when they lose something.

_0AfTeRsHoCk0_ · #6 11-10-2002, 01:27 PM

I have mixed feelings

I think this definately will encourage role-playing, but the vast overworld that 2k2 has will still make it almost impossible to have kingdom wars. You don't expect everyone in your kingdom to come far and wide to get together for a big battle. It's so difficult to travel from island to island and meet others in a large atmosphere that big battles will probably never happen.

feivel · #7 11-10-2002, 01:27 PM

Im not talking about an incentive, because the oppurtunity to gain, without the chance of failing makes people fight unrealistically, if you know you have the chance of gianing 10 plat for fighitng, but on the flipside you die and dont lose everything, obviously you are not going to care if you die.

_0AfTeRsHoCk0_ · #8 11-10-2002, 01:31 PM

Soldiers and Sorcerors probably don't care at all if they die.

If Kings and Queens died, that would be a different story. The kingdom tag system is really only making role-playing what it truly should be for 15% of the rp populus. No enemy kingdom is going to care if Soldier Johnny died in kingdom mode, because he'll just come back as Soldier Bobby in a new RP char. It's just easier to keep his original character.

Kaimetsu · #9 11-10-2002, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by feivel
That is why you make it so that the losses are not so much, but enough to make the person want to run away when they are losing

That wouldn't make for fun battles. I mean, what's the point? In practical terms, what is the difference between running away and being killed? The only big difference I can see is that the former deprives the other guy of the satisfaction of landing a kill. There's still incentive to run away because nobody wants to die. It's an ego thing, y'know? Sure, increase the losses and people will run sooner. But that gets to a point where people run at half health and nobody ever manages to actually kill anything. Where's your realism there, when the soldiers put their own safety above that of the kingdom and sprint away as soon as they get the tiniest scratch? Where's the point, if your kingdom is always second priority? Kingdom battles shouldn't be about keeping yourself alive, they should be about protecting/advancing your kingdom. If you just wanna brawl with somebody then run around without peaceful on and beat up on random people.

feivel · #10 11-10-2002, 01:41 PM

Maybe you never fought a battle on 2k1 or classic but heres basically what happened, two guilds fought for five hours straight until one guild quit because they got bored. im sorry to say this but the way the human brain is to make stupid moves unless there is a penalty for making a stupid move. the whole point of making people want to run away at low health is so that those at low health will start to fight more carefully and eventually you could force the whole enemy army to route and that is an accomplishment cus then you are closer to your final goal without having to risk anymore lives by fighting the whole way there, but with the current system all that will happen is a massive battle in one spot till everyone leaves army A will eventualyl advance just to find that all of army B has respawned at full ****ing strenght to fight again. I am not so much mad at this *** system, I am mad because Stefan promised one thing, he promies a great roleplaying system, he promised to make 2k2 work differently, all he did was change it exactly to how 2k1 worked, except now he made it so you can gain exp in dungeons without even losing exp when you get killed. In the long run you are better off only getting half experience for killing dungeons monsters and never dieng, then you are getting full exp but losing exp when you die. im sorry but thats just not how things work in real life and is not even close. yes it is a game and not real life, but the point of a roleplaying game is to make believe you are REALLY a fantasy character, but a character that dies and respawns at full strenght thats not fun thats not what rping is about.

feivel · #11 11-10-2002, 01:43 PM

You hit the nail on the head Aftershock, THEY SHOULD ****ING CARE IF THEY DIE BECAUSE IF THEY CARE IF THEY ARE GOING TO DIE THEN THEY ARE GOING TO THINK BEFORE THEY GO AND DO SOMETHING STUPID. THE FEAR OF DEATH MAKES PEOPLE FIGHT BETTER AND HAVE MORAL.

Kaimetsu · #12 11-10-2002, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by feivel
Maybe you never fought a battle on 2k1 or classic but heres basically what happened, two guilds fought for five hours straight until one guild quit because they got bored.

Yes, hi, this is why I said that there should be something that stops people from fighting straight after being killed. Read the words, yeah?

Ghost Pirate · #13 11-10-2002, 01:46 PM

I'm sure once stefan get the ghost thing for kingdom mode it might be different.

_0AfTeRsHoCk0_ · #14 11-10-2002, 01:55 PM

I never said the system was bad, but there should be some sort of consequence. Even if you had to stay in hell or something for x minutes, or what ghost pirate said, wait for ghost mode so you have to find your corpse, then it would be much better.

feivel · #15 11-10-2002, 02:06 PM

the point of a battle is to either kill the enemy, or route the enemy, now lets think, why do you want to kill the enemy? well you want to kill the enemy to make their army weaker, and why does the enemy want to route if they or losing, so they can run away and take a better position. the way it is now if you kill the enemy and he respawns at full health same stats then you didnt make his army any weaker, all you did was move it away from you. And there is no point for the enemy to roue and take up a decision if they can just fight, die, and then take up a better position at the same strength as they were before the first battle.
But it doesnt matter anymore cus the whole reason I have been arguing is because I wanted someone to argue back and convince me I was wrong, and Rahz Zalinto just did that so yay

Kaimetsu · #16 11-10-2002, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by feivel
the point of a battle is to either kill the enemy, or route the enemy, now lets think, why do you want to kill the enemy?

ROUT. NOT ROUTE.

You want to kill or rout them so that they don't stand in your way when you attack their kingdom. If it's just about crippling individual members then, instead of kingdom battles, you should have groups of Dustari or Bakagun or whoever running around picking on any solo guy they can find. Obviously this is not how wars work. If we want battles to be realistic and significant then the fighters must put their kingdom's safety above their own, and we all know that this will not happen if we impose penalties on dying.

Quote:

And there is no point for the enemy to roue and take up a decision if they can just fight, die, and then take up a better position at the same strength as they were before the first battle.

Yes. WHICH IS WHY I SAID THEY SHOULD BE UNABLE TO FIGHT FOR SOME TIME AFTERWARDS. Read the WORDS, man.

Quote:

But it doesnt matter anymore cus the whole reason I have been arguing is because I wanted someone to argue back and convince me I was wrong, and Rahz Zalinto just did that so yay

Wow, somebody actually managed to get some sense into your thick skull? I may have a new hero.

Crovax_Dark_Lord · #17 11-10-2002, 05:02 PM

A question: Stefan said that, by waiting 3-4 hours, we can switch out of kingdom mode, by waiting in our castles... could someone clarfy that? After being switched, do we go to the castle after 3-4 hours and switch back?

Zurkiba · #18 11-10-2002, 07:55 PM

I'm with Dashio on this...
Wars are supposed to be a thing of death and destruction.
Lets admit it, most people dont RP like they should. If you RP correctly you're supposed to have a general fear of dying. No not everyone can surpass their fear of dying... but maybe some can, the ones who live in war.

If there is nothing to die for, then there is no stratagy... kingdoms will become a place of brute force where what ever army is the largest, wins the war.

They cant give you just one life, because then there would only be one person on the server.

PuffyPuppy · #19 11-10-2002, 08:39 PM

I believe that when kingdom battles, not wars. take place that they will ONLY be aloud in kingdom space. No battles on main island. Then they could have it when you die you can not enter any kingdom islands until the battle is over. It would also be cool if they had like a list of all the offial rpers that are fighting. 1 more thing, I have heard that when we were fighting the pirates some bakuguns and forest peopel were comming in and getting killed. I think that when 2 kingdoms fight. Only those 2 kingdoms can go in those 2 levels. Example CP and Dustari are fighting. They can only fight in 2 levels, CP and Dustari. But if the king wanted to he could hire people from other kingdoms to help fight.

Edit: I forgot to say that when the next battle occurs, not war. you can join the fray again

BlKnight · #20 11-10-2002, 09:13 PM

I read like half the posts, but there could be some rp story made explaining how people who die come back to life. That would be better than creating a new character.

And dieing sucks, exp loss is enough to make you run when you are dieing. Who wants to loss about an hour or more of exp?

MSD · #21 11-10-2002, 10:35 PM

well if ya just add a point system like the counterstrike one.
=/ that way people dont want to die caus they want there kingdom to win and when they win there will be a certain amount of moneyz for the winners kingdom treasure

Lyndzey · #22 11-10-2002, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MSD
well if ya just add a point system like the counterstrike one.
=/ that way people dont want to die caus they want there kingdom to win and when they win there will be a certain amount of moneyz for the winners kingdom treasure

Kingdoms do get rewards for winning :O

Opposite (11/9/2002 11:21:09 PM):

no you don't lose something ,but i said i can give a lot of prices for the winning kingdoms since the tax pots of
the kingdoms are quite high, 50% of all sold items goes into the tax pot

zell12 · #23 11-10-2002, 11:27 PM

Basically Necromancers cannot die Rpwise, They are immortal. And Paladins are alot of tools, like the Awe, that basically make them godly.

So I can really see that depending on your rp character, there are different types of outcomes if you die. O.o

Crovax_Dark_Lord · #24 11-11-2002, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by zell12
Basically Necromancers cannot die Rpwise, They are immortal. And Paladins are alot of tools, like the Awe, that basically make them godly.
So I can really see that depending on your rp character, there are different types of outcomes if you die. O.o

See, backed up by my RP opposite, Who can resist necromancy?

feivel · #25 11-11-2002, 12:31 AM

Being contraversial is fun.
And Kaimetsu I do seem thickheaded and stubborn but I do it for a reason. I would rather argue until someone convinces me, and then me agree, then me just deep down disagree and not say anything about it. I still there needs to be a minor exp penalty for dieng though, not so people will be afraid to fight but so they will be afraid to fight stupidly, so that instead of charging stupidly into battle they will fight tactically and they will want to possibly draw-back and re-group etc but whatever.

Admins · #26 11-11-2002, 12:31 AM

If you lose experience then nobody will take part in a role-playing event. What we can do is to make special rules for the wars, like people cannot respawn (get kicked out of kingdom mode) when they die, or the war is over when the king dies etc.
With the ships its actually not so hard to assemble the members of the kingdom.
For the winning kingdom / alliance we can give out out prices from the tax pot (where 50% if all sold items on the kingdom islands are put)

Zurkiba · #27 11-11-2002, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crovax_Dark_Lord

See, backed up by my RP opposite, Who can resist necromancy?

Immortal doesn't mean you cant really die...

It just means that you cant die from age. If someone is going to slit your throat... then you're going to die, immortal or not.

And certain ranks dont even get "ELITE REVIVAL POWERS WITHOUT HELP" or something... Because if Necromancers are able to enter the war again with the excuse of 'immortality' then mos of my kingdom can do the same as they are Elven =x.

aylad · #28 11-11-2002, 01:05 AM

What if... let's say you die in kingdom mode. When you come back to life, your stats are all = 1 or 2. Slowly over the space of about 10-15 minutes your stats return to what they were before. How's that? You could even do Skill Levels the same way to prevent sorcs from casting high-level spells for a while, and things like that......

Ghost Pirate · #29 11-11-2002, 02:05 AM

Ghost Mode and item lost while in kingdom mode?

graaliholic · #30 11-11-2002, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stefan
(get kicked out of kingdom mode)

This would work, then they can't join back in the battle :o

feivel · #31 11-11-2002, 04:18 AM

Atleast make it so we can pillage eachother, I dont want to have to wait for you to be on to have a war just for the sake of getting a prize, if I beat the other kingdom I want to take something from them, maybe some of the money from their treasury, not just have you spawn money from no-where and give it to me. Also whoever suggested the idea of weakness after death, I love it. They said that rather then losing exp and such just when they die their stats will lower like as if they are in a weakened critical medical state, and they will gradually increase back up to what they were, so the person dies and then they have to recover before they rush blindly back into battle, I think this is good because the person is not permenantly damaged but they are still weakened temporarily.

Tyhm · #32 11-11-2002, 05:01 AM

Kingdoms should have treasuries. They should also have markets. Preferably linked markets. I know in the Forest capital there's a locked market, this is probably true in all capitals. Given that, set up all the markets so you can see what's in other markets (There's gold plate in Forest market for 100p), and the hosting kingdom gets 10% of the sales. This treasury is in the main castle, and the king can use it to commission walls, guards, etc. - sometimes from NPCs when no players are available/willing. If the castle is lost, the treasury is taken.

Downside - people will raid the castle when everyone's asleep, or right after a crash when only 3 people are online, etc.

Locke_boy · #33 11-11-2002, 06:46 AM

My opinion on death in general ... no loss of experience .. stats, okay. I think you should become a ghost, and either have to find your body or pray for a god (or random spirit) to revive you .. or have someone, like a Priest, revive you ..

I think this could work in Kingdom battles, because .. let's say you're on your Kingdom's beach, fighting off the enemy, and you get killed .. so you're thrown to the other side of the island .... you can't jump into the battle again after that.

I think stat loss should apply to any death .. it's something to make someone not want to die .. but experience loss .. that's fine with me, but no level loss, then... ehh .. that's all. :o

-Axel- · #34 11-11-2002, 07:27 AM

wegtksemdgsd
gsdg
sdgsd
g

Who says Necromancers are immortal?

Kaimetsu · #35 11-11-2002, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyhm
Downside - people will raid the castle when everyone's asleep, or right after a crash when only 3 people are online, etc.

Hence this thing:

http://forums.graal2001.com/forums/s...threadid=38444

Pyrolefire · #36 11-11-2002, 09:54 AM

*Shrugs* i am fine with the loss of xp. I mean, i think is a good reason to avoid death for people. In kingdom battles noweone will like to get killed and in normal battle neither of course.
And :grrr: is so frustating people keep saying.. "Like in Counter-Strike.." don't get me wrong, i love to play counter-strike with my friends. but it piss me off people compare an rpg with a shooting or action thingy :P! Which doesnt even go with the case because he was just giving an example! So i will shut up! O_O
In conclusion, i am K with Xp Loss.

Pyrolefire · #37 11-11-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by feivel
Also whoever suggested the idea of weakness after death, I love it. They said that rather then losing exp and such just when they die their stats will lower like as if they are in a weakened critical medical state, and they will gradually increase back up to what they were, so the person dies and then they have to recover before they rush blindly back into battle, I think this is good because the person is not permenantly damaged but they are still weakened temporarily.

Well..thats a good idea too =)

Crovax_Dark_Lord · #38 11-11-2002, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by -Axel-
wegtksemdgsd
gsdg
sdgsd
g

Who says Necromancers are immortal?

Not really... Excalibur (zell) said so... but I decided it would be better if we could turn to dust instead... heh

Kaimetsu · #39 11-11-2002, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrolefire
And :grrr: is so frustating people keep saying.. "Like in Counter-Strike.." don't get me wrong, i love to play counter-strike with my friends. but it piss me off people compare an rpg with a shooting or action thingy :P! Which doesnt even go with the case because he was just giving an example! So i will shut up! O_O

So... did you already conclude that I was right or do I need to prove it still?

TerrorBite · #40 11-11-2002, 06:54 PM

Oh and that silly turn to dust .... it is for earth walls.... >_> which don't work! I think critical medical condition is good for after you die, or maybe after the ghost mode... then you would have to maybe stay in a bed or just wait a certain amount of time until your stats are restored.