negative values and setfocus

Dach · #1 10-07-2002, 08:34 AM

It just won't work. Works fine for values over 64, of course you can only see one level away with regular map but ohwell. I don't know if it works for gmaps, but that doesn't make much difference since not everybody uses them.

Graal2001_NAT · #2 10-07-2002, 08:56 AM

I wouldn't consider it a bug, I would consider the fact that you can go above 64 a bug

Kaimetsu · #3 10-07-2002, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graal2001_NAT
I wouldn't consider it a bug, I would consider the fact that you can go above 64 a bug

Not at all. The client doesn't have all the data for everything around the player. It can't look that far away because it doesn't know what's there.

Dach · #4 10-07-2002, 09:38 AM

Maybe I should be more specific, when you have a map and some sort of script that allows the player to see what's going on ahead, or wherever, of them, it messes up when you try to use negative values.

I first noticed this when I was trying to make stands for my baseball field, then remembered when I was playing with the bowling ball on classic.

I'm not suggesting that we need to be able to see more than a level away either. It would be fun for a spy camera maybe, but not that usefull.

Graal2001_NAT · #5 10-07-2002, 09:47 AM

use a gmap

R0b1n-NPC · #6 10-08-2002, 01:35 AM

gmaps are fun... espesically when using terrain <3

Dach · #7 10-08-2002, 04:28 AM

...cept that I don't want to have to use them for this

R0bin · #8 10-08-2002, 06:21 AM

Then ya canne do it capn!!! YOU CANNE PUSH HERRR OVER THE EDGE!!!!!

Com013 · #9 10-08-2002, 11:25 PM

You should be able to look into the next levels using it. They are loaded anyway for the maps. And when you are warping the player to -30 it would work anyway. Can't see why it shouldn't work for setfocus, too. I already made a thread about this here.

Kaimetsu · #10 10-09-2002, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Com013
You should be able to look into the next levels using it. They are loaded anyway for the maps. And when you are warping the player to -30 it would work anyway. Can't see why it shouldn't work for setfocus, too. I already made a thread about this here.

Yeah, the adjacent levels. But not all of them. And they wouldn't have the decorative NPCs.

Dach · #11 10-09-2002, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Com013
I already made a thread about this here.

oops, I must've missed it or forgotten...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaimetsu
And they wouldn't have the decorative NPCs.

Yeah, that's the main reason I scrapped the stadium idea for the baseball. No ball, no game to watch.

Loriel · #12 10-09-2002, 09:20 PM

*thinks of setfocus2 level,x,y;*

Com013 · #13 10-10-2002, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loriel
*thinks of setfocus2 level,x,y;*

Yes, this would be usefull if you wanted to look out of a house or so...
But I'd be satisfied if the normal setfocus would work...

Kaimetsu · #14 10-10-2002, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loriel
*thinks of setfocus2 level,x,y;*

Wouldn't be worth it. The stadium thing is easy if you have a gmap anyway, and there's no point for Stefan to waste time developing old technology. If Classic doesn't want to upgrade then it has to live with the implied problems.

Com013 · #15 10-10-2002, 12:54 AM

Doesn't want to?!
Hey, even when I made the simple converter, it would only convert scripts like

NPC Code:



if (playerenters) {

  setbackpal uwpal.png;

}

and similiar stuff...there are still thousands of other scripts which need to be converted manually.

Tyhm · #16 10-10-2002, 04:26 AM

Really Kai, I expected better of you. =_=

As if it's a laziness that's preventing us from manually converting all 6000+ levels...

Graal2001_NAT · #17 10-10-2002, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Com013

Yes, this would be usefull if you wanted to look out of a house or so...
But I'd be satisfied if the normal setfocus would work...

it would be impossible to add that right now, the tiles of a level that isnt near you (assuming you are on a map) arent sent to the client

Kaimetsu · #18 10-10-2002, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyhm
Really Kai, I expected better of you. =_=

As if it's a laziness that's preventing us from manually converting all 6000+ levels...

Didn't say that it was. But the choice is there and, whatever factor compells you to do so, you choose not to upgrade. There are good things associated with that choice (ease of development, whatever) and bad things. You all spend all your time complaining about the bad things when it is clear that you are working with obselete technology. I do not expect Microsoft to fix all the DOS bugs anymore, and neither would I expect Stefan to fix the old Graal problems. G2K2 is the XP equivalent in my analogy, and your feelings won't change the fact that Stefan will dedicate most of his time to it. So, you have to choose between upgrading and not, and live with the goods and bads of your choice.

Tyhm · #19 10-10-2002, 09:22 AM

...by that same rationalle, there was no Y2K problem (let alone the glitch panic) - all those people running fortran systems had but to upgrade to a Windows based operating system. They chose not to and faced the consequences. What's the difference? They had scads of inconvertible data, we have scads of inconvertible data, that move would take millions of man hours, this move would take millions of man hours...
*beans him with the logic-mallet*

Kaimetsu · #20 10-10-2002, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyhm
...by that same rationalle, there was no Y2K problem (let alone the glitch panic) - all those people running fortran systems had but to upgrade to a Windows based operating system. They chose not to and faced the consequences. What's the difference? They had scads of inconvertible data, we have scads of inconvertible data, that move would take millions of man hours, this move would take millions of man hours...
*beans him with the logic-mallet*

1) The machines they were using had certain technical benefits over the alternative. Purely clientside scripts have no real advantage over their NPC Server counterparts.
2) Ignoring that obvious point, yes. Yes, they chose the choice and faced the consequences. Sure there was a Y2K problem, because of what I describe - an inability or disinterest in upgrading. Classic faces the same problem, but where the Fortran guys differ is that they didn't go pestering somebody to upgrade their operating system to cover their earlier choice to stick with redundant technology.

You make the choice, you live with the choice. Don't like all the cheats and setfocus problems etc? Fine, upgrade. Don't want to convert everything? Fine, don't. But don't blame Stefan for choosing to put his priorities elsewhere.

*rofl shoots yuo wit teh logic gun omg now ur ded*

Tyhm · #21 10-10-2002, 11:00 AM

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that it's a simple decision. Shutting down Classic for a month or three while we manually convert everything is not acceptable, though it's been suggested. Ignoring Classic is likewise unacceptable. The conversion has to be quick and decisive, and as much automated as possible. Six THOUSAND levels, Kai. If Com and I each did an average 30 levels by hand a day, that's still 100 days. Of course we can't just cut it up into 200 packs of 30 and pass them around for the players to convert, do I even have to say what a headache it'd be to make sure they weren't cheating? I mean, just the thought of manually editing every NPC on the Graal map, in the Pyramid, in CC, in Nostalgia, every baddy in every quest ever not-removed, every player house...it's ridiculous, a logistic impossibility. Yes, Classic should upgrade rather than ask for more clientside upgrades, but we never decided "Hey, let's stay Clientside, what the hell." Intention implies a choice. You can no more fault Classic for not POOF becoming Serverside than you can fault a snail for not POOF becoming a butterfly!

Kaimetsu · #22 10-10-2002, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyhm
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that it's a simple decision.

Not at all, I appreciate the scale of work involved. But you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm negatively judging the Classic staff based on their choice of whether or not to upgrade. I'm not. I'm negatively judging them for their incessant complaining that they never get features for their obsolete technology. Both choices are fine with me, I know that each has its good and bad sides. But the Classic team seem to believe that they can nullify the bad. Not only is this attitude overly demanding on Stefan, it's also completely unrealistic. Dedicated new features for Classic servers are not going to happen. Live with it.

R0bin · #23 10-10-2002, 06:28 PM

Why does classic have to come offline?

Players can still play while you fix the levels up,
And it would be like two days offline tops while you upload all the levels and get the npc server working.

Tyhm · #24 10-10-2002, 11:23 PM

Thank you both for reaffirming my decision to quit this game, as it's clearly populated by *****s now moreso than ever.

2 DAYS!??!??!? ARE YOU INSANE, OR JUST ILLITERATE? 3000 levels a day, converting them by hand...how about NO?

And how is this thread in any way translated towards asking for special Classic stuff? NPCServ can't view outside the level either! Just look at the palm trees of G2K2!

The only special clientside thing we've asked for is an NPCServer with options to not disable all clientside scripts, but rather only specific ones. So an NPCServer that doesn't do anything until we've converted all the baddies, then we can turn off Clientside Baddies Support. Then we convert all the gelats and turn off Clientside Gelat Support. Then we convert all the weapons...THEN, if we had THAT, we could turn Classic into an NPCServ world, but we DON'T. We asked for ONE THING, a special NPCServer that does LESS than the usual one, just a panel of checkboxes to control how little it does, and you accuse us of incessantly whining?

Riddance.

R0bin · #25 10-11-2002, 02:01 AM

Bah!

Did you not read my post?

I said it would take 2 days to set up the npc server, not to convert the levels.

Tyhm · #26 10-11-2002, 02:28 AM

Indeed I did. However, as you cannot (currently) have a server with both an NPCServer and clientside scripts, there's a very fine line that needs to be crossed: on the one side, we have Classic, which works reasonably well and has quite a few players. On the other hand you have an NPCServer, which doesn't work at all yet, would take months of work by hand (during which time NOBODY's working on Classic), and has currently 0 players.
We could start an NPCServer world with the Classic levels, and leave Classic where it is as we convert the NPCServer Classic, but Original Classic would go to hell. We could try and split the difference, but it'd take twice as long to do the NPCServer version of Classic and twice as long to fix the same bug on both servers...

It's just not practical to POOF open an NPCServer on Classic, or open a copy of Classic with an NPCServer, unless Com013 successfully makes a Clientside->NPCServ batch converter (which he's close to finishing with the recent addition of the fabled .graal->.nw converter) or Stefan makes a Partial NPCServer so we can spend a weekend converting one thing at a time - gelats, baddies, weapons, etc - until Classic is 100% NPCServerified.

R0bin · #27 10-11-2002, 02:43 AM

just get a ****load of lats / nats to help, and you guys contiune administrating the classic that is up.

Graal2001_NAT · #28 10-11-2002, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by R0bin
just get a ****load of lats / nats to help, and you guys contiune administrating the classic that is up.

and have an overload of lats once they are done? that idea is dumbassed, its sacrificing quality for quantity

tyhm, what about a private debug server for classic? keep administrating the current classic while converting on the debug, once done, upload and have stefan put up the npc server? of course you wont be able to see the full effects without a large playerbase since it would be private but I think its a better solution than converting while the npc server is up when/if stefan puts one on classic

Tyhm · #29 10-11-2002, 04:30 AM

Suggested, takes twice as long to bugfix on Classic while making and applying fixes to NPCServ Classic. These are the options. Shutting down and/or neglecting Classic is not acceptable for any span of time (or at least, any span exceeding maybe a week). Manually converting Classic to NPCServ in a week is impossible. That leaves automatically converting Classic to NPCServ or gradually converting Classic to NPCServ. Since it seems evident Stefan's never gonna make the latter a possibility (and in all fairness no matter how simple it is, it'll only be used once), that leaves it up to Com's miraculous scripting abilities and the Graal->NW converter that we JUST got after asking around for months.
So Kai, you can't say we've been making a concious effort NOT to convert to NPCServ. Since G2K1 came out it's been on the table, but the MEANS have never existed. Otherwise imma hold it against you that you've never travelled through the sun on a weekend. It's always been an option, but the means have never existed. And shame on you for asking for them!

Kaimetsu · #30 10-11-2002, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyhm
And how is this thread in any way translated towards asking for special Classic stuff? NPCServ can't view outside the level either! Just look at the palm trees of G2K2!

Gmaps aren't levels. Levels are obsolete for large areas. If 2K2 wanted to make this stadium thing then it'd be fine because the technology allows it. But oh no, let's add new functionality because Classic wants to make something outside of its grasp.

Quote:

The only special clientside thing we've asked for is an NPCServer with options to not disable all clientside scripts, but rather only specific ones.

And about six trillion new security features that wouldn't even matter if you used an NPC Server, with tremendous amounts of whining every time you're ignored.

Quote:

So Kai, you can't say we've been making a concious effort NOT to convert to NPCServ.

I never did. Again you misinterpret me and again I must clarify: I do not hold it against Classic that it has not upgraded to use an NPC Server. Once more: I do not hold it against Classic that it has not upgraded to use an NPC Server. I think it's a perfectly valid choice and probably the best available given the current technology. What I dislike is the constant whining, as if you have a right to new features or bug fixes for your redundant technology when in fact Stefan has far more pressing things on his mind.

R0bin · #31 10-11-2002, 06:22 AM

It would still take longer if a few excellent lats converted the levels, than a few hundred mediocre lats converted them.

It wont be that hard to make a batch converter, program a list of npc server actions into the converter, and if a script needs to change the players money say, it could change:

if (playerrupees>=50) playerrupees-=50;

to

if (playerrupees>=50) {
with(getplayer(#a)) {
playerrupees-=50;
}
}

Kaimetsu · #32 10-11-2002, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by R0bin
It would still take longer if a few excellent lats converted the levels, than a few hundred mediocre lats converted them.

It wont be that hard to make a batch converter, program a list of npc server actions into the converter, and if a script needs to change the players money say, it could change:

if (playerrupees>=50) playerrupees-=50;

to

if (playerrupees>=50) {
with(getplayer(#a)) {
playerrupees-=50;
}
}

Dude, clearly you don't know how the NPC Server works. If you can read playerrupees then you can change playerrupees but simple stuff like this is not the problem. The problem is in other, more complicated things that would need to be divided into serverside and clientside sections.

Graal2001_NAT · #33 10-11-2002, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by R0bin

if (playerrupees>=50) playerrupees-=50;

to

if (playerrupees>=50) {
with(getplayer(#a)) {
playerrupees-=50;
}
}

I'm guessing shifter told you that? He seemed to have the same misunderstanding (I noticed it when he posted that log on-off thing), getting #a is meaningless and inefficent, since the script already knows it is editing your attributes

R0bin · #34 10-11-2002, 07:47 AM

i wouldnt want to "discredit" him by saying he did.

Tyhm · #35 10-11-2002, 08:16 AM

G2K2 uses GMaps, and they still do weird things when you go beyond the southern peninsula's boundaries.

You would prefer that we not ask for some pretty damn simple security features until the technology is available? Just passively let Classic get hacked to death by any ***** with a trainer? Tough.

Kaimetsu · #36 10-11-2002, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyhm
G2K2 uses GMaps, and they still do weird things when you go beyond the southern peninsula's boundaries.

*shrugs*

And it'll be fixed. But the fix won't benefit Classic in any way so the point is moot.

Quote:

You would prefer that we not ask for some pretty damn simple security features until the technology is available? Just passively let Classic get hacked to death by any ***** with a trainer? Tough.

I think it's fair to ask. I don't think it's fair to continually whine about it like an attention-deprived child, insinuating that Stefan has some binding obligation to spend time on your problems.

Tyhm · #37 10-11-2002, 01:20 PM

Well I only worked full time for no pay on something that profits him. Surely that's no reason to expect support. =_=

Kaimetsu · #38 10-11-2002, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyhm
Well I only worked full time for no pay on something that profits him. Surely that's no reason to expect support. =_=

Indeed.

Admins · #39 10-13-2002, 04:27 AM

Arg somehow i miss the topic, but i just wanted to say that the <0 thing will be fixed in the next exe.

Com013 · #40 10-14-2002, 01:18 AM

Yes, this thread ran completly off-topic.

setfocus is clientside anyway.

And Tyhm, I can't perform magic...the NPC Converter will only do simple stuff...I reviewed the scripts of some player houses now and I got afraid...they used complex stuff for things that don't really matter. "Complex" means that I couldn't convert them automatically.

Partially NPC Server isn't good/possible. The flags are completly different for security reasons.