Managerial Changes

[lTBSl]

I everyone just quits Zod and they have 0 players so they get the point Jer is needed...

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I don't see what you're getting at here. I'm not manager of anything, and when I was, I was fired for what I did by the PWA (and rightly so). Tig has even globally banned me in the past himself. This is all years ago and I've made considerable attempts to change since then.

I'm all for restoring Jer as manager, but I don't think this situation is similar at all to what I did (spawning items). The worst accusations aimed at Jer are that he was unprofessional.

Both you and Seeya were banned for selling Era items for money on the 30th of April 2011. The ban was by Tig, yes. However, both you and Seeya were allowed to evade this ban on alternate accounts (Graal778257 and Graal753452) and were allowed to continue playing and WORKING on Graal Kingdoms. In addition to this the GK player known as Vinka, the guy that spammed the entire forum up with pornographic material and was going to be pursued with legal action from unixmad, has been working on the Graal Kingdoms iPhone port.

I think that this situation is very comparable because it shows just how hypocritical this administration is. You can paint Jerret like he's a 'sexually charged' deviant, but allow the real crimes to go unpunished because it benefits your own servers? No, that's not right at all.

[Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Emera

Good management skills have nothing to do with knowing about the server you're managing. Granted that some decent knowledge of the server will be more than helpful when dealing with players.

My point was that I severely doubt they'll even appoint someone qualified. I'd sooner believe they would instate a friend, maybe another Vimes.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by Rufus

You can paint Jerret like he's a 'sexually charged' deviant, but allow the real crimes to go unpunished because it benefits your own servers? No, that's not right at all.

I agree. My main issue with this decision (besides it being a slap in the face to Jer, who has put countless hours into Zodiac) is that they will never be able to find somebody who can do a better job of managing the server than he can.

[Emera]

Originally Posted by Eskimo

My point was that I severely doubt they'll even appoint someone qualified. I'd sooner believe they would instate a friend, maybe another Vimes.

What would you define as qualified though?

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I don't see what you're getting at here. I'm not manager of anything, and when I was, I was fired for what I did by the PWA (and rightly so). Tig has even globally banned me in the past himself. This is all years ago and I've made considerable attempts to change since then.

Fired and banned for selling items for USD > unbanned & reinstated as manager. I'm not putting you at blame for that, but it's definitely part of the Vimes circle-jerk that has been going around for some time now.

[Imperialistic]

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by cbk1994

I agree. My main issue with this decision (besides it being a slap in the face to Jer, who has put countless hours into Zodiac) is that they will never be able to find somebody who can do a better job of managing the server than he can.

I agree with you too, but my main issue is that this is being drawn like it is about protecting the community and professionalism. Neither of those things seemed to come in to play when it is Graal Kingdoms that is brought up. Hell, the quote that Tig first posted was to Jerret when he posted ABOUT the corruption on Graal Kingdoms.

This is just bull****.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Both you and Seeya were banned for selling Era items for money on the 30th of April 2011. The ban was by Tig, yes. However, both you and Seeya were allowed to evade this ban on alternate accounts (Graal778257 and Graal753452) and were allowed to continue playing and WORKING on Graal Kingdoms. In addition to this the GK player known as Vinka, the guy that spammed the entire forum up with pornographic material and was going to be pursued with legal action from unixmad, has been working on the Graal Kingdoms iPhone port.

I think that this situation is very comparable because it shows just how hypocritical this administration is. You can paint Jerret like he's a 'sexually charged' deviant, but allow the real crimes to go unpunished because it benefits your own servers? No, that's not right at all.

Rufus, nobody is preventing Jerret from developing on Zodiac. For now, we ask that he only works on the dev server if he insists on working, but we are in no way telling him he's not allowed to develop for Zodiac, just as we did not actively stop Chris and Seeya from working when they were banned because they were behaving under their new accounts (which they paid for). It's not really comparable at all because Jerret was removed for entirely different reasons, and he was not banned from the game.

Furthermore, don't clump Vinka in as part of GK iPhone's staff. Vinka was fired from GK iPhone for his poor behavior on the forums (posting the porn, etc) and globally banned. We handle every situation on a case-by-case basis and we always try to be as fair as we can, obviously we can't make everyone happy, but you're really blowing it into more than it is. If this is going to turn into a thread about this, I'm going to close it.

[Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Emera

What would you define as qualified though?

If they can't find someone with past management experience, then atleast a zodiac community member who cares as much about the server as Jerret does and has some sort of scripting and player relations experience. There are a few current staff members who could probably do a good job. The preferable choice though, for the players of zodiac atleast, is Jerret.

[Emera]

So your definition of a good manager is somebody from the server, somebody who can deal with players professionally and somebody who has a decemt knowledge of development. It seems Jerret ticks only two of the three boxes you've layed out here.

[Pandar]

Originally Posted by Emera

Good management skills have nothing to do with knowing about the server you're managing. Granted that some decent knowledge of the server will be more than helpful when dealing with players.

So unbelievably wrong. Extensive knowledge of the past, present, and planned future of the server you're managing is an extremely vital aspect to being a proper Manager. I would not trust someone who has been on the server for 2 years or less in a Managerial position.

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by Eskimo

If they can't find someone with past management experience, then atleast a zodiac community member who cares as much about the server as Jerret does and has some sort of scripting and player relations experience. There are a few current staff members who could probably do a good job. The preferable choice though, for the players of zodiac atleast, is Jerret.

And the staff of Zodiac judging that they have all their nicknames "Support fp4" or "rehire fp4" or something.

[Crow]

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

*snip*

Call someone else immature again and I'll hit you, promised.

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by pandar

so unbelievably wrong. Extensive knowledge of the past, present, and planned future of the server you're managing is an extremely vital aspect to being a proper manager. I would not trust someone who has been on the server for 2 years or less in a managerial position.

+1. A manager needs to lead the server, not just manage the staff team.

[snoop413]

Originally Posted by Emera

So your definition of a good manager is somebody from the server, somebody who can deal with players professionally and somebody who has a decemt knowledge of development. It seems Jerret ticks only two of the three boxes you've layed out here.

just stop. you're making yourself look like a complete idiot.

[Crono]

Ridiculous. Unprofessional behaviour gets you out-right removed while absolute corruption gets you a pat on the wrist. Brilliant logic.

[WarriorCam]

So wait, buying a new account to use when your other one is banned is acceptable behavior? I thought that was "ban evasion".

[Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Emera

So your definition of a good manager is somebody from the server, somebody who can deal with players professionally and somebody who has a decemt knowledge of development. It seems Jerret ticks only two of the three boxes you've layed out here.

Jerret is VERY professional when dealing with the zodia community. Actions on the forums don't necesarilly reflect how he acts on zodiac, even people who don't like him will agree that he takes his position seriously and is always willing to work with the community.

[Emera]

Originally Posted by Pandar

So unbelievably wrong. Extensive knowledge of the past, present, and planned future of the server you're managing is an extremely vital aspect to being a proper Manager. I would not trust someone who has been on the server for 2 years or less in a Managerial position.

I know a fantastic example of a manager that has had no prior knowledge of the server they're managing and is doing an outstanding job of managing the server and has been doing it since January 2012. Novo has been doing an amazing job with limited knowledge of Delteria's past. I agree that once they're in a managerial position, they should make an effort to get to know the server they're working for though.

[Knightress]

Soooo, Sinkler... Are you going to "Train" the new Manager of Zodiac until you see fit, like you've done to Era?

P.S. Love your forum avatar btw, soooo fitting for your involvement as a "PWA".

[MysticX2X]

I think a lot of people misunderstand the level of professionalism a manager of a classic server should hold in public light. This applies to any situation with a leader, not just on Graal.

Although I do agree given the amount of work and effort I've heard he has put into Zodiac (never really paid attention to this server), he should have been put on temporary suspension at the most, and not upright removal.

Also, lol at bringing Absolut_crono into this. The people who mention Unholy Nation do not realize that not one manager has done anything positive for UN in years.

[MattKan]

Well, PWA, you hear what all your developers and staff want. Are you going to give it to them?

[Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Emera

I know a fantastic example of a manager that has had no prior knowledge of the server they're managing and is doing an outstanding job of managing the server and has been doing it since January 2012. Novo has been doing an amazing job with limited knowledge of Delteria's past. I agree that once they're in a managerial position, they should make an effort to get to know the server they're working for though.

I'm not saying it's impossible for something like that to happen, Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying, it would be usefull for a manage to know what they're managing.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Rufus, nobody is preventing Jerret from developing on Zodiac. For now, we ask that he only works on the dev server if he insists on working, but we are in no way telling him he's not allowed to develop for Zodiac, just as we did not actively stop Chris and Seeya from working when they were banned because they were behaving under their new accounts (which they paid for). It's not really comparable at all because Jerret was removed for entirely different reasons, and he was not banned from the game.

Furthermore, don't clump Vinka in as part of GK iPhone's staff. Vinka was fired from GK iPhone for his poor behavior on the forums (posting the porn, etc) and globally banned. We handle every situation on a case-by-case basis and we always try to be as fair as we can, obviously we can't make everyone happy, but you're really blowing it into more than it is. If this is going to turn into a thread about this, I'm going to close it.

You sound like you're just making up rules now. Since when were people allowed to evade and work on servers when they're globally banned? According to the code of conduct, 'Users whose accounts have been terminated by any Graal Online administrator or LINUX Cyberjoueurs himself may not access the Graal Online system in any manner or for any reason without the express written permission of Cyberjoueur'. Moreover, if Jerret has a history of 'asking people sexually charged, highly inappropriate questions in public' and there has been 'a degree of harassment from him' then why would he be allowed to work on Zodiac at all? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

I don't agree with the hypocritical nature that you seem to work in favor of yourself and the projects that you work on. You might think it is acceptable to make Jerret out to be some big bad that the PWA had to remove, but based on how you've allowed people (namely those within your circle of friends) to get away with much worse, I do not know how you expect anyone to take this seriously. I can only assume that you'll throw in that Jerret was a manager and thus is expected to have acted in a more professional way than what your buddies were doing. If he was actually doing his job though, which he clearly was, wouldn't it have better served THIS case to have left him banned from the forums?

[cbk1994]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

I think a lot of people misunderstand the level of professionalism a manager of a classic server should hold in public light. This applies to any situation with a leader, not just on Graal.

We don't have the luxury of being so picky on Graal. The development pool is very limited, and we can't afford to scare off the best developers because of minor forum spats. The good Jer did for the server far outweighs any of the unprofessionalism.

[Emera]

Originally Posted by Eskimo

I'm not saying it's impossible for something like that to happen, Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying, it would be usefull for a manage to know what they're managing.

I couldn't agree more, but I'm saying that I don't believe that having a load of prior server knowledge should be mandatory.

[Imperialistic]

Rufus is on point, Tig you're just making up new rules as you go. (and enforcing them on non-friends)

[Eskimo]

If what we've all been told by non-PWAs is true, I'd really like to see Tig's explanation as to why Triple_Combo shouldn't have been punished for CSTing and USDing.

[Starfire2001]

Originally Posted by Emera

I know a fantastic example of a manager that has had no prior knowledge of the server they're managing and is doing an outstanding job of managing the server and has been doing it since January 2012. Novo has been doing an amazing job with limited knowledge of Delteria's past. I agree that once they're in a managerial position, they should make an effort to get to know the server they're working for though.

Don't really think you can compare the two here. There's a pretty big difference between managing a dev server that trying to reinvent itself anyways and managing a server with a history that's actively trying to maintain a player count.

[Pandar]

The Playerworld Administration deal with situations on a case-by-case basis. That is why they have removed Jerret from his position as Manager of Zodiac for his posts on the official Graal forums, while the Zodiac community uses its own forums. Makes sense.

[Imperialistic]

Originally Posted by Emera

I know a fantastic example of a manager that has had no prior knowledge of the server they're managing and is doing an outstanding job of managing the server and has been doing it since January 2012. Novo has been doing an amazing job with limited knowledge of Delteria's past. I agree that once they're in a managerial position, they should make an effort to get to know the server they're working for though.

Well, you don't really need to know anything about the old Delteria's past because the new Delteria is NOTHING like old Delt. So that example is completely null.

[Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Pandar

The Playerworld Administration deal with situations on a case-by-case basis. That is why they have removed Jerret from his position as Manager of Zodiac for his posts on the official Graal forums, while the Zodiac community uses its own forums. Makes sense.

If this thread hadn't been posted on a forum that 90% of zodiac doesn't use, there would be a LOT more reaction from zodiac players

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

You sound like you're just making up rules now. Since when were people allowed to evade and work on servers when they're globally banned? According to the code of conduct, 'Users whose accounts have been terminated by any Graal Online administrator or LINUX Cyberjoueurs himself may not access the Graal Online system in any manner or for any reason without the express written permission of Cyberjoueur'. Moreover, if Jerret has a history of 'asking people sexually charged, highly inappropriate questions in public' and there has been 'a degree of harassment from him' then why would he be allowed to work on Zodiac at all? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

I don't agree with the hypocritical nature that you seem to work in favor of yourself and the projects that you work on. You might think it is acceptable to make Jerret out to be some big bad that the PWA had to remove, but based on how you've allowed people (namely those within your circle of friends) to get away with much worse, I do not know how you expect anyone to take this seriously. I can only assume that you'll throw in that Jerret was a manager and thus is expected to have acted in a more professional way than what your buddies were doing. If he was actually doing his job though, which he clearly was, wouldn't it have better served THIS case to have left him banned from the forums?

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

Rufus is on point, Tig you're just making up new rules as you go. (and enforcing them on non-friends)

Is that so? Because I don't recall ever referring to anything I said as a "rule" by which we abide. No, in fact, I explicitly said that we handle each situation on a case-by-case basis. If someone is banned, and wants to prove himself/herself, we welcome people to purchase new accounts and play on them until they misbehave again (unless we consider their presence a threat to the community in some way). We're allowing Jerret to stay as a developer on the -dev server only- where he will not be interacting with players, so I'm not sure how you see it's "stupid" of us to allow him to work on Zodiac privately. His presence on the dev server would only help Zodiac.

I work in favor of Graal and Graal's community, and every decision the PWA makes is in, what we consider to be, Graal's best interest. You may not agree, clearly you do not here, but you said it best yourself, Jerret was not behaving properly as a manager (on a very popular server), a position we hold to higher expectations, and we gave him ample warning before making this difficult decision.

Of course we weighed his value in the community as a scripter against his negative personality traits, but again, we unanimously agreed that he is not worth his trouble. Anyways, I feel that I've really exasperated this discussion more than I normally would, and there's really nothing more that can really be said by anyone. I think everyone has pretty much voiced their complaints and we've explained our stance.

[evilchaseofdoom]

Originally Posted by Eskimo

If this thread hadn't been posted on a forum that 90% of zodiac doesn't use, there would be a LOT more reaction from zodiac players

90% of Zodiac doesn't use? More like 98%. If any of you guys go on the Official Zodiac forums, Jerret actually takes that seriously and is very professional. Sure, there's some of his posts that aren't 100% with it, but for the most part he's nothing like he is on these forums.

[DeathOfRa]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

It was not an easy decision to remove Jerret. There's no denying that he is, in some limited sense, an asset to the community. However, it was a decision that we reached (unanimously, I might add) after discussing it for months.

The decision about his removal was not over one issue (like this triple_combo stuff). It was over a series of issues over an extended period of time. Fowlplay4's public behavior has been increasingly poor over the years, especially in the last year. Need I also remind you that he has been permanently banned from the official GraalOnline forums for repeated poor behavior (this was before his removal)? We have history of him asking people sexually charged, highly inappropriate questions in public, we've seen a degree of harassment from him, and on top of this, we asked him to stop multiple times.

In fact, I remember back on March 4th (yes, that's nearly half a year ago), warning Jerret that if he cannot improve his behavior, especially on the official forums, we do not want him staying in his position. In fact, I said these words to him exactly and He agreed to stop, and then continued misbehaving. Posting things on the forums like "I'm pretty hard right now" and "hey bayne vvat does thor's loads taste like?"

We warned him again by banning him from the forums for 31 days. He returned to the forums starting threads like "MD is garbage" (taking shots at MysticalDragon on Delteria) saying things like and posting things in other un-related topics like "hey galdor wat do my nutz taste like *****" (these are direct quotes).

And many of you have brought up triple_combo (who is in no way at fault here), where Gabriel asked Zodiac for proper proof for having banned him/her. Gabriel was only doing his job -- something he would've done for any of you -- by making sure Zodiac had full indisputable evidence to be banning someone for life. They did not have proper proof, so Gabriel removed the ban and in order to spite Gabriel, fowlplay4's administration placed a trade restriction on triple_combo, essentially rendering the game unplayable. This is unacceptable to do to paying customers for essentially no reason. Gabriel approached me about the situation and then proceeded to ask fowlplay4 to remove the trade restriction if he/she was not suspected of actively breaking any rules. Fowlplay4 removed the trade restriction, but decided to reset triple_combo as a retaliatory response to Gabriel's persistence. Quite frankly, I don't care if you're the king of the world, we do not accept this kind of behavior from managers. We saw bias coming from fowlplay4's administration not only in this sense but in others as well.

Let me reassure anyone who is in doubt that this was NOT an impulsive decision. It was well thought-out, planned, and long talked about among the PWA. Triple_combo is only the tip of the iceberg as to why Fowlplay4 was removed, and he/she is certainly not the primary reasoning. Jerret had plenty of warning, plenty of chances to improve, and plenty of opportunity. I know none of you ever claimed to know the whole story, but please keep in mind that there is always more to the story than what you can see. Obviously I do not want to discuss Fowlplay4's entire rap sheet because I find it disrespectful to do so, but he is in no way some angel that you all have painted him to be.

This is a load of horseshit. Anyone with eyes can see you covering your tracks here. Your decision has damned one of the best servers Graal has to offer, including Graal Kingdoms, which never introduces anything of mention, which I know because people would hear about it and I talk to people who hear things.
And Jerret "interacts" with us with humorous messages, Zodiac people are a hardy bunch who take news a bit differently than the rest of the people. If it's not funny or outstanding, we generally think "tl;dr;not important enough".

[Pandar]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Is that so? Because I don't recall ever referring to anything I said as a "rule" by which we abide. No, in fact, I explicitly said that we handle each situation on a case-by-case basis. If someone is banned, and wants to prove himself/herself, we welcome people to purchase new accounts and play on them until they misbehave again (unless we consider their presence a threat to the community in some way). We're allowing Jerret to stay as a developer on the -dev server only- where he will not be interacting with players, so I'm not sure how you see it's "stupid" of us to allow him to work on Zodiac privately. His presence on the dev server would only help Zodiac.

I work in favor of Graal and Graal's community, and every decision the PWA makes is in, what we consider to be, Graal's best interest. You may not agree, clearly you do not here, but you said it best yourself, Jerret was not behaving properly as a manager (on a very popular server), a position we hold to higher expectations, and we gave him ample warning before making this difficult decision.

Of course we weighed his value in the community as a scripter against his negative personality traits, but again, we unanimously agreed that he is not worth his trouble. Anyways, I feel that I've really exasperated this discussion more than I normally would, and there's really nothing more that can really be said by anyone. I think everyone has pretty much voiced their complaints and we've explained our stance.

Anybody on Graal whose voice is worth listening to, will disagree with you up and down. You made the wrong decision.

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I work in favor of Graal and Graal's community, and every decision the PWA makes is in, what we consider to be, Graal's best interest.

Well, you're wrong on that. It isn't Graal's best interest. Everybody on Graal is against it, so it definitely is not in Graal's best interest.

[Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

We're allowing Jerret to stay as a developer on the -dev server only- where he will not be interacting with players, so I'm not sure how you see it's "stupid" of us to allow him to work on Zodiac privately. His presence on the dev server would only help Zodiac.

I'm not sure how you automatically assume his actions on the forums reflect how he interacts with the community on the server. Maybe you should try playing the server before you judge that. If he is still going to be allowed to develop for zodiac, the only reason i can see that you would have for removing him from the management position is a bias towards your Vimes friend.

[evilchaseofdoom]

Courtesy of *whatzgoingon:

dont even know where to start
jerret is a great manager, he's contributed a lot to zodiac. he's always helped out when being asked for serious help, even on other servers yet you fire him out of personal dislikes
i still dont feel like the reason he was fired is justified. after seeing tigs quotes i do agree it was some inappropriate stuff but it wasnt supposed to be offending
its just his bad sense of humor, he didnt mean to harm anyone
the warnings that were quoted refer jerret pointing out that someone was receiving preferable treatment

he wasnt told to stop the sexual harassment, he could have figured that out himself but again, its just bad sense of humor from his part
and as for triple combo, he/she has been banned serveral times for usd/cst, even with proper proof
i.ve been gp before so i actually am able to say that jerret has always been fair when it comes to handling those things
he shouldnt be fired for stepping on someones toes or even for pointing out another persons mistake
you want him to keep developing yet he isnt allowed to still be manager despite doing a great job
it isnt going to be easy to even find a decent replacement
even if you dont agree with what he did, you might as well consider whats good for zodiac and what the people who play it want, not what you want
keep him banned form the main forums, dont care though leave the management out of it