Observer Mode pending removal!

[Admins]

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet. Unholy Nation is a special case because it's not based on leveling or so, so that limitations are not necessary making as much sense as on a server like Zodiac or Kingdoms.
Our goal is to make Graal more free-to-play, but it's not that easy since the servers are mainly made and managed by player staff and the money is made in selling items to player, so things like the item system and economy need to be more secured. Hopefully we can do more about this in 2012.

[ffcmike]

I personally feel observer mode is a much better limitation to have compared to not being able to save as it was up until 2007, the big problems with it are:

• Bugs
• Inability to manipulate the player properly
• No way to determine how much free time a trial has

It is for these problems that UN, aswell as Classic in the past have not allowed trials to play events or spars, which are relied upon more heavily with traditional style servers.

If Stefan + Unixmad can't remove observer mode, they should at least make it so that when changing an observer's level, it is actually synced to other players clients, so they aren't blocked in a spar or event. There's also a problem where modifying an observer's variables serverside is not saving.

There should also be a way to determine how much free time a player has, if they have more than a certain amount then they can participate in an event without problems.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I personally feel observer mode is a much better limitation to have compared to not being able to save as it was up until 2007

The lesser of two evils.

[ffcmike]

It would also be better if rather than entering observer mode every single login, it actually kept track of the last time you entered observer mode including on different servers. Something incredibly frustrating is when a player experiences a bug in a quest caused by observer mode, and you have to tell them to reconnect, which ofcourse gives them another bout of waiting.

Looking away from the technical side of things, 5 hours a month is a meagre amount of time. It would take a new player longer than that to even become familiarised with a server like UN. Sometimes on Classic trials tell me they don't want to play through the quests simply because it will eat away at their remaining time, which even though there's nothing else to do as it's under construction, is quite true because the quests can take new players a few hours to play through.

As crazy as this might sound at first, it would even be useful if there was a way to actually force a player into observer mode, because when there's a bug caused by observer mode it's a huge pain in the arse to debug it when you have to log on a trial, sit through observer, prepare for the bug, wait for observer, then sit through observer again to try and determine/fix the problem.

[EclipsedAngel]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I personally feel observer mode is a much better limitation to have compared to not being able to save as it was up until 2007, the big problems with it are:

• Bugs
• Inability to manipulate the player properly
• No way to determine how much free time a trial has

It is for these problems that UN, aswell as Classic in the past have not allowed trials to play events or spars, which are relied upon more heavily with traditional style servers.

If Stefan + Unixmad can't remove observer mode, they should at least make it so that when changing an observer's level, it is actually synced to other players clients, so they aren't blocked in a spar or event. There's also a problem where modifying an observer's variables serverside is not saving.

There should also be a way to determine how much free time a player has, if they have more than a certain amount then they can participate in an event without problems.

I remember when I temporarily had to use trial again, I'd spend an hour doing all the quests, each single time I logged on.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet.

Yes, it can, and you should do it.

[Imperialistic]

Originally Posted by Crono

Yes, it can, and you should do it.

I second this

[Devil_Lord2]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet.

Sure it can!

Originally Posted by Stefan

Our goal is to make Graal more free-to-play, but it's not that easy since the servers are mainly made and managed by player staff

Originally Posted by Stefan

so things like the item system and economy need to be more secured.

Hire non-player staff and it will be more secured; observer mode can then disappear and Graal can be free. :]

Then I will help advertise Graal, when I can develop without paying or doing super rewards and having people send me mail to my house, which has happened, or giving me junkmail.

[skillmaster19]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet. Unholy Nation is a special case because it's not based on leveling or so, so that limitations are not necessary making as much sense as on a server like Zodiac or Kingdoms.
Our goal is to make Graal more free-to-play, but it's not that easy since the servers are mainly made and managed by player staff and the money is made in selling items to player, so things like the item system and economy need to be more secured. Hopefully we can do more about this in 2012.

So, Stefan, about that.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet. Unholy Nation is a special case because it's not based on leveling or so, so that limitations are not necessary making as much sense as on a server like Zodiac or Kingdoms.
Our goal is to make Graal more free-to-play, but it's not that easy since the servers are mainly made and managed by player staff and the money is made in selling items to player, so things like the item system and economy need to be more secured. Hopefully we can do more about this in 2012.

Originally Posted by skillmaster19

So, Stefan, about that.

Everything said in the original quote has since been contradicted.

[avengis]

Originally Posted by Stefan

I'm sorry but the observer mode cannot be removed yet. Unholy Nation is a special case because it's not based on leveling or so, so that limitations are not necessary making as much sense as on a server like Zodiac or Kingdoms.
Our goal is to make Graal more free-to-play, but it's not that easy since the servers are mainly made and managed by player staff and the money is made in selling items to player, so things like the item system and economy need to be more secured. Hopefully we can do more about this in 2012.

its great when youre gonna make a point, but another likeminded induvidual saves your efforts for you

[dbug]

at least we got graal 3d as promissed some time later.. and for only a short time.. tho i dont know if anyone ever answered wether they were trying again to have obs mode removed or not

[Starfire2001]

Originally Posted by dbug

at least we got graal 3d as promissed some time later.. and for only a short time.. tho i dont know if anyone ever answered wether they were trying again to have obs mode removed or not

Having talked about it with Okilian, can say that belief of UN management is that working on removing observer mode right now would be fruitless. Have come to this conclusion from watching Classic struggle and fail to get Observer mode removed from their server and because of what Stefan has said in this very thread. That said, though I can't speak for Oklian here but am sure he'd agree, if I was given any reason to believe that we could get observer removed I personally as a UN Developer would drop all other projects I am involved in to do whatever was necessary to get it removed. If we don't get observer mode removed, no matter what else we do the server is going to eventually die.

I've mentioned it in other threads, but on the off chance Stefan will read and consider this, I think its fairly easy to set up restrictions on UN that would give trials incentive to upgrade without making the game near unplayable as is the case with observer mode.

So here's my simple proposal:

1) Limit trials to level 2 shield. UN uses default movement system, so that means trials will move slower than regular players which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Sort of similar to Zod having a level cap.
2) Make trials unable to play team events. Restricts trials, and at the same time prevents a team being destroyed by trials.
3) Trials can't gain hours/kills/deaths in CastleWars (so they can't get any of the rewards for participating) and are limited to 25 or so spars a day.

Think that would be more than enough, together with the trial restrictions that already exist on the server. Would likely be able to draw more players this way, which would mean more people who could potentially upgrade.

[dbug]

Originally Posted by Starfire2001

So here's my simple proposal:

1) Limit trials to level 2 shield. UN uses default movement system, so that means trials will move slower than regular players which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Sort of similar to Zod having a level cap.
2) Make trials unable to play team events. Restricts trials, and at the same time prevents a team being destroyed by trials.
3) Trials can't gain hours/kills/deaths in CastleWars (so they can't get any of the rewards for participating) and are limited to 25 or so spars a day.

Think that would be more than enough, together with the trial restrictions that already exist on the server. Would likely be able to draw more players this way, which would mean more people who could potentially upgrade.

Yikes!

I would agree with Dusty slightly more then you. Letting them earn the EC but not spend it is rather genius.. the idea is the more ec you get.. the more tempting it is to upgrade.. ur basically cashing in on a gold mine at that point.

25 spars a day is insane high, i never participated in more then 5-10 and that was considered jaw dropping amount for me.. 25 just doesnt restrict non-sparrers enough.

As dusty said AP, Kills, Deaths... restricting those from profile would be a huge deal on a server like UN.. and very easily accomplishable. VERY EASY !!

Maybe you could also add proper guidence for questing and limit the number of hearts they can earn?

Just curious, but why not impliment these systems, THEN argue with stefan? At least you'll have alot more ammo to fight your war. I could imagine stefan hears ALOT of "hey if i do this can we have ths".. and even if he replied sure they just lose intrest in graal.. happens ALOT.. and not just with stefan.. where people ask if they can do something then never pursue it again.

Originally Posted by ffcmike

I should point out once more that despite multiple requests Stefan has never made any effort to explain what security measures he expects, or shown any acknowledgement of existing measures. As of 2 weeks ago he also said something on the lines of that he doesn't even see why observer mode is bad.

Thor, hes basically thinking.. hey I watch tv.. why are commercials bad? he upgraded your playing experience so you no longer reset account upon login.. destroying HOURS (sometimes 10+ hours) of hard work.. just by inserting a comercial. We all know better.. its bad for Graal.. but if you guys dont take the first step to impliment a new system.. why should he bother answering questions?

I know you mention concern for security but he wont mention how.. that would require him to be extreamly knowledgable with ALL of the scripts.. which hes a busy man he just phisically cannot keep track of EVERY server.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by dbug

Thor, hes basically thinking.. hey I watch tv.. why are commercials bad? he upgraded your playing experience so you no longer reset account upon login.. destroying HOURS (sometimes 10+ hours) of hard work.. just by inserting a comercial. We all know better.. its bad for Graal.. but if you guys dont take the first step to impliment a new system.. why should he bother answering questions?

I'm not trying to pour scorn over suggestions, just saying that it's all very much contrary to the obstacles, I feel as if we're going around in circles here.

Originally Posted by dbug

I know you mention concern for security but he wont mention how.. that would require him to be extreamly knowledgable with ALL of the scripts..

There is no reason he would need to be knowledgeable of a server's systems to be able to express what level of security he expects. On the other hand showing him copies of scripted security measures along with a brief description should only take a few minutes to skim over and judge.