Dear Graal Online Staff...

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by NewYorkerNick

Just let the developers run their company the way they want and enjoy the game. The game is incredibly cheap and only expensive if you don't have self control. None of us really know the profits or statistics so we can't assume or claim anything. We will see what happens, but so far it has been super positive with the newer players--the most important demographic business wise if we wanna keep the Graal servers running.

It ain't that serious folks. It really ain't.

The post above you has less to do with players playing the game for cheap and more to do with developers having to pay to have their content uploaded so that Stefan and Co. are the ones that make money off of it.

[Door]

Originally Posted by NewYorkerNick

Just let the developers run their company the way they want and enjoy the game. The game is incredibly cheap and only expensive if you don't have self control. None of us really know the profits or statistics so we can't assume or claim anything. We will see what happens, but so far it has been super positive with the newer players--the most important demographic business wise if we wanna keep the Graal servers running.

It ain't that serious folks. It really ain't.

To be perfectly honest, it's the duty of customers to complain. I know that might sound silly, but I genuinely mean it.

If no one complained about products or services, quality would continue to fall (or at the VERY least never improve). Developers should never run a company the way they want--a business is run to get customers, so it should always be run the way the customers want. However, complaining serves a different purpose on Graal. Because it does not actually push Stefan and Unixmad to make changes, it has simply become a pastime of players.

In fact, Stefan and Unixmad should be thankful that Graal has such a massive complaining community. Without this, most people would probably leave. A lot of people probably stick around because they think complaining will eventually lead to improvements--especially since they complain in such great numbers. Complaining gives a whole lot of Graalians purpose when they normally would have none. They certainly aren't offered anything better to do in the actual game. At this point, complaining is part of Graal's content and gameplay.

So yeah, complaints pretty much save Graal's butt on a regular basis.

You're welcome, Stefan!

[Demisis_P2P]

I knew they'd screw up the whole "free to play" thing eventually.
And then before it was even released Unixmad was talking about bringing back VIP, etc. Hahahahahaha.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Door

To be perfectly honest, it's the duty of customers to complain. I know that might sound silly, but I genuinely mean it.

If no one complained about products or services, quality would continue to fall (or at the VERY least never improve). Developers should never run a company the way they want--a business is run to get customers, so it should always be run the way the customers want. However, complaining serves a different purpose on Graal. Because it does not actually push Stefan and Unixmad to make changes, it has simply become a pastime of players.

In fact, Stefan and Unixmad should be thankful that Graal has such a massive complaining community. Without this, most people would probably leave. A lot of people probably stick around because they think complaining will eventually lead to improvements--especially since they complain in such great numbers. Complaining gives a whole lot of Graalians purpose when they normally would have none. They certainly aren't offered anything better to do in the actual game. At this point, complaining is part of Graal's content and gameplay.

So yeah, complaints pretty much save Graal's butt on a regular basis.

You're welcome, Stefan!

"It now costs 1000 gralats if you wish to file a complaint".

[Heroin]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

"It now costs 1000 gralats if you wish to file a complaint".

"But before being able to file a complaint, you have to make a new website for our support center! Don't worry, we're only going to charge you 2500 for your work!"

[Kamaeru]

I have a better business model. How about you pay me to make your heads and graphics for you, and then we can upload them on PC Graal for free.

I'll call it quality control.

[Devil_Lord2]

I decided to undergo some extremely classified tests on the economic of Graal.
My first test is on Spiral Knights. ;o So far these tests are coming out good and I can even play it on the mac.

Due to the term of these tests, I may not be on the Forums or Graal as often, and may have to go undercover. That and I have asked Clockwork and Chompy if one of them could fix my IP address a week or two ago... Currently I don't have much of a reason to test both economies at once.. So far no RC, nothing to do on Graal.

I hardly get on iClassic, and don't play PC servers because I don't like any of them except for Neetris on UN.



--------------------



Also, complaining is good, and it is called the Invisible hand..
Players want something, Items are given, they get it. Person selling gets money.
Players don't like the price, since it is a dictatorship, they can't really go to someone else to buy the stuff.. So they give in, complain more, or quit. ^.^

Of course it doesn't matter because new players come in, they invite their friends, eventually get bored and quit, the friends don't and invite more friends... The whole pyramid scheme.. Until a few years when the iPod version is less popular, people will continue to flow in whether or not they keep the players happy after a few weeks of playing.

Then again, players able to sell their own thing, while being able to get a 5-20% profit while the rest from Gralat packs and such goes to 'The Man' would be pretty cool. They could be charged to submit, and would gladly do so.. If their price sucks, they would have to resubmit.. "taking it down should be free".

Ex.
I want to have my head uploaded, sell it for 5.5k
I might have to pay double the cost that I'd like to sell it for.
Buying 2? Gralat packs or working my way up to 11k.

I would make 275 or 550 or 1100.. The rest would 'float around'.
this would encourage me to make more heads and bodies...

Should no one buy it, obviously something is wrong and I'd have to redo it..
Why? Because it must be crappy and isn't making me any money..
Staff should be able to take the body down 'keeping it in the database for those who bought it or return the Gralats' They would have to check to see if it is okay, or semi-decent to upload, but other then that it is on the players free will.

Pros:
Incentive to keep playing.
Players are more interactive with the game rather than idling or chatting.
Players are making Gralets to buy others art work / accessories.
Less people will complain to the staff members.

Cons:
Probably more? But staff will have to look through more things, because people will actually WANT to pay to have their stuff uploaded. Of course still less than it use to be, before the money system to have shields and swords.

---------

Originally Posted by Kamaeru

I have a better business model. How about you pay me to make your heads and graphics for you, and then we can upload them on PC Graal for free.

I'll call it quality control.

Also, I believe to use heads and bodies or w/e you can't be a trial.. which means you will have them all pay so and so dollars to play the server, to pay you, to be able to see their own artwork on their avatar, on an OS most of them probably do not play since we are mainly talking about iPod. D:

----------

Should anyone care, I may be back in a few weeks-months to get back into the 'retest' of Graals economic system. ;o
Final results will vary!

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by NewYorkerNick

Just let the developers run their company the way they want and enjoy the game. The game is incredibly cheap and only expensive if you don't have self control. None of us really know the profits or statistics so we can't assume or claim anything. We will see what happens, but so far it has been super positive with the newer players--the most important demographic business wise if we wanna keep the Graal servers running.

It ain't that serious folks. It really ain't.

I apologize in advance for sounding rude, but....


You are an admin of Classic iPhone. You aren't about to say anything bad about the server, even if you do disagree with it, therefore nothing you say has any meaning, whatsoever.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by MattKan

I apologize in advance for sounding rude, but....


You are an admin of Classic iPhone. You aren't about to say anything bad about the server, even if you do disagree with it, therefore nothing you say has any meaning, whatsoever.

If you need to apologize for your post in advance, why post it at all? Either way, his post has meaning to me, so you can't say it has no meaning whatsoever. You shouldn't be dismissing staff members saying by their voice doesn't matter, because they try their best to help run this game voluntarily, and they see a different side of the table than you.

[Kamaeru]

Says the staff member whose opinion has the highest ignore rate on Graal.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

If you need to apologize for your post in advance, why post it at all? Either way, his post has meaning to me, so you can't say it has no meaning whatsoever. You shouldn't be dismissing staff members saying by their voice doesn't matter, because they try their best to help run this game voluntarily, and they see a different side of the table than you.

I don't think someone who puts this in popular idle spots has anything to say on the credibility of admins and their opinions.

[MattKan]

Originally Posted by kia345

I don't think someone who puts this in popular idle spots has anything to say on the credibility of admins and their opinions.

uhm this is out of place but r u male or female

[Emera]

But tig IS always right. He was simply reminding the Kingdoms public. What better place to put it than a popular idle spot?

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Kamaeru

Says the staff member whose opinion has the highest ignore rate on Graal.

Where'd you gather your statistics? You realize you will have had to poll every single person on Graal? I'd like to see the full list of your results so we can check out your ignore rate too. Let me know, I'll be around.

Originally Posted by kia345

I don't think someone who puts this in popular idle spots has anything to say on the credibility of admins and their opinions.

Yeah, clearly.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Yeah, clearly.

A tip of the iceberg it is.

[Mykel]

It's kind of funny to watch iphone players complain about similar things that PC players complained about 9-10 years ago. Graal will adapt and survive in some way. People will grow used to the changes. People will continue to say that Graal will die, and it wont.

[Galdor]

Originally Posted by Mykel

It's kind of funny to watch iphone players complain about similar things that PC players complained about 9-10 years ago. Graal will adapt and survive in some way. People will grow used to the changes. People will continue to say that Graal will die, and it wont.

Yea graal will survive with the same old stuff by platform switching every ~ 10 years.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Galdor

Yea graal will survive with the same old stuff by platform switching every ~ 10 years.

and thinking it's alive because of them, not the players

[WarLord2004]

I love the idea how people are ranting about the prices for a custom uploaded content..
But do people even think ahead of things beside of being a freeloader.

I mean i understand in there point of view that Graal Online Pc never charge there players to uploaded content but however we did pay a steep price for our account?

So just because Iphone Classic now which holds 1000+ players per day has to pay the fee of $1 dollar to get a custom shield uploaded people are crying about it?

First of Iphone Classic is not Graal Pc so don't try and compare them both regardless of what system/script may be the same it will never be the same. It's a open market to help the same community all in one. I mean if u would gladly donate money to help keep Graal alive that's ok. I play other game beside this 2d mmorpg and they live off donation for items in game.. Stefan did the right thing but then again i think NPC's/Toys should have cost this sort of fee. (Mabey it does idk but i don't play Iclassic so often)..

So stop ranting on how it's unfair that you have to upload custom shield u prob stole from your graal pc gfx folder made by developers like myself . I mean heck i see some of my stuff all over i don't go running saying OMG STEFAN I MADE THAT THERE GIMME A DOLLAR EACH TIME I SEE IT....

Only if your paying for the server to run u can make suggestions i figure >.>

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by WarLord2004

I love the idea how people are ranting about the prices for a custom uploaded content..
But do people even think ahead of things beside of being a freeloader.

Charging for a feature that was free and then monetizing it with minimal notice gives them every right to complain about it.

If they implemented this money-based uploading system instead of allowing free uploads it would have been a different story. Well PC Graalians would have complained but our opinions don't matter so much to New Graal.

[oo_jazz_oo]

Originally Posted by WarLord2004

I love the idea how people are ranting about the prices for a custom uploaded content..

I'll stop you right there. We are not ranting about prices for custom content.

The original post was ranting about the fact you have to pay to upload content for anyone to use.

Allowing free shield uploads, then suddenly charging for them, even thought the system didn't change at all. Anyone could use those shields. So you are paying for a shield that isn't yours.

It should be free to upload public shields, and cost money to upload personal shields. I know the argument is lag and server space, but like i've said before; if you run an online game, you should know what you are getting into.
You dont start off running a game, then all of the sudden go "Oh, I guess we dont have enough space! Money plz!"

[ffcmike]

Classic (Server): Graal774072 uploaded head file classic_head_tpugman_xemnas.png

You (Wed May 25 01:02:21 2011):

That will be 3000 gralats, that 2.5 kb of filesize being uploaded and stored, plus the 3 seconds it took me to approve it needs to be payed for somehow!

---
Opposite (Wed May 25 01:03:48 2011):

That would be horrible to be able to make great things, and then not be able to afford them.


---
You (Wed May 25 01:05:51 2011):

Oh and I forgot the displaying of that head will be contributing to lag other players will experience, this payment will help deter the inconvenience this causes!

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Opposite (Wed May 25 01:07:00 2011):

Oh ok, but does that money ever reach the people it is affecting?


---
You (Wed May 25 01:08:25 2011):

No no I think you misunderstood, we keep the money, but the charge is helping to minimalise the extent people are being affected.

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Opposite (Wed May 25 01:09:41 2011):

Ok I get it now, well if it does truely help the people...


---
You (Wed May 25 01:11:46 2011):

Hopefully one day nobody will ever upload player graphics, that way we don't have to worry about the extra file storage and uploading of roughly of 2 - 10kb per file, it will save us the 3 seconds it takes to approve each file, and it will reduce about 0.01% of lag.

---
Opposite (Wed May 25 01:16:36 2011):

Well I am sorry to have contributed to this madness. I have done my wrong deed and must now go. I will fight this to the best of my ability however, and hopefully give the genious who thought this one up a piece of my mind.

[WarLord2004]

Originally Posted by oo_jazz_oo

I'll stop you right there. We are not ranting about prices for custom content.

The original post was ranting about the fact you have to pay to upload content for anyone to use.

Allowing free shield uploads, then suddenly charging for them, even thought the system didn't change at all. Anyone could use those shields. So you are paying for a shield that isn't yours.

It should be free to upload public shields, and cost money to upload personal shields. I know the argument is lag and server space, but like i've said before; if you run an online game, you should know what you are getting into.
You dont start off running a game, then all of the sudden go "Oh, I guess we dont have enough space! Money plz!"

That's like telling me when Ed-Boon made Mortal Kombat he charged me a coin to play and now to this day the same beloved Mortal Kombat Classic Costumes i loved so much is now on another system/console.

O wait it's FREE on Ladder match but not on other game modes.
Hmmm why should i pay for this crap?
O wait i love the original outfits.... O well hands over my money!...

Dude get a grip i love how no one likes to support Graal when it comes to money.
I'm Not supporting Stefan or Unixmad but this debate happened the same way when Classic tab went to P2P.

Everyone raged and ***** about why they cannot become staff/get rc on a server unless they paid for a account when they were the ones who developed and made Graal as it was back then..

The worst thing they did is not having done this before they introduce the App.
But look at it as if it was a promotion feature just to get the App of it's feet..

I'm guessing everyone is right cause there's not really much updates on the server and the staff list seems like it's lacking good developers.
But isn't that just like how all server are?

I mean after all i seen Whatsgoingon working there? WTF LMAO
HIDE YO KIDS HIDE YO WIFE<>

(Back on Topic)

Maybe he should just limit the amount of uploads some how IDK cause i don't think he could like lock a limit on each account? Via using the website some how since Graal Iphone has no password thing. Bleh they just made the app a bit poorly that's all.

I Smell a Update.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by WarLord2004

I mean after all i seen Whatsgoingon working there? WTF LMAO
HIDE YO KIDS HIDE YO WIFE<>

Hey! Aarian is a very nice lady...

[DustyPorViva]

Word is Eurocenter was making a lot of money off the iPhone apps before this change. And emphasis was put on a lot. Just adding more and more ways to take more money seems greedy as hell to me, but that's not surprising at all.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Word is Eurocenter was making a lot of money off the iPhone apps before this change. And emphasis was put on a lot. Just adding more and more ways to take more money seems greedy as hell to me, but that's not surprising at all.

This isn't 1999. This isn't a fun little hobby to these guys anymore. It may be greedy, but they'd be dumb not to make more money.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Mykel

This isn't 1999. This isn't a fun little hobby to these guys anymore. It may be greedy, but they'd be dumb not to make more money.

Except they risk pissing off their community. Can only push the iPlayers so far until they quit, and then what?

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Mykel

This isn't 1999. This isn't a fun little hobby to these guys anymore. It may be greedy, but they'd be dumb not to make more money.

Maybe if they actually made any of the content. All of the content is made by the same players they're trying to milk their money off of. It's not like players are paying to upload heads only they can use. They're paying to upload more content for Eurocenter to provide to other players who pay to be able to customize their player.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Mykel

This isn't 1999. This isn't a fun little hobby to these guys anymore. It may be greedy, but they'd be dumb not to make more money.

Depends how much money they're making off of this really.

It's bad for business when your piss off your customers so the social effects caused by the change could actually cause them to lose money in the long run.

edit: ha similar posts.

[oo_jazz_oo]

Thats what I dont get...if Stefan and his staff team made 100% of the content...they could charge w/e the hell they want. I could really care less.

But, when they make 0% of the content and get 100% of the proceeds...I think the community has a right to complain and make some demands.
Asking that the ability to upload public shields doesn't cost anything doesn't seem that unreasonable.

I mean, were complaining because we want to add content to the game without paying. We. Want. To. Add. Content. To. The. Game. Without. Paying.
Its sad, really...but w/e.

As long as they make money, right?

[Crono]

Originally Posted by oo_jazz_oo

I could really care less.

[oo_jazz_oo]

Originally Posted by Crono

Touché.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by Crono

Except they risk pissing off their community. Can only push the iPlayers so far until they quit, and then what?

I get that, but I don't see it happening. This isn't enough to make mass amounts of people quit.

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Maybe if they actually made any of the content. All of the content is made by the same players they're trying to milk their money off of. It's not like players are paying to upload heads only they can use. They're paying to upload more content for Eurocenter to provide to other players who pay to be able to customize their player.

Wait, what are they doing wrong? I agree with you guys that paid graphics should be account locked, but complaining about Graal milking off of their players is a ridiculous argument.

If Stefan/Unix/Etc made Graal, it would be a ****ty, useless game. The Zelda;LttP connection doesn't have nearly as much meaning to the newest user group as it did with older Graalians. Customization and community have always been the backbone of the game. Nothing has changed, except that they're trying to make more money. It started with p2p accounts, then "lifetime classic," and it will continue. People will complain, then adapt, then find something new to complain about.

[DustyPorViva]

If you don't think there is anything wrong with milking players, especially the ones doing all the work, then there's no sense in arguing with you.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Crono

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ico1.htm

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

If you don't think there is anything wrong with milking players, especially the ones doing all the work, then there's no sense in arguing with you.

They aren't actually milking you. The source of the game is player development, or at least it was. If you don't enjoy it, then you don't enjoy the game. They are offering you a product, if you don't enjoy it, don't pay for it.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Mykel

They aren't actually milking you. The source of the game is player development, or at least it was. If you don't enjoy it, then you don't enjoy the game. They are offering you a product, if you don't enjoy it, don't pay for it.

If you read the initial post on the the thread it highlights that there was no charge for shields and swords when the server was released. It has been what, nearly 2 years? so no, "if you don't enjoy it, don't pay for it" just doesn't cut it. Within those two years the players have invested a lot into the game, like people have on the PC server, so you can't just tell them to go away if they don't like that you're ****ting on them. That is a terrible assertion.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by Rufus

If you read the initial post on the the thread it highlights that there was no charge for shields and swords when the server was released. It has been what, nearly 2 years? so no, "if you don't enjoy it, don't pay for it" just doesn't cut it. Within those two years the players have invested a lot into the game, like people have on the PC server, so you can't just tell them to go away if they don't like that you're ****ting on them. That is a terrible assertion.

Why is it? I understand complaining and trying to get your point across, but when it comes down to it, every game is a decision on if you do or do not want to pay/play it. Pricing packages have changed time after time for PC graal. Actually paying to play PC graal changed, too. How is this any different? Notice how that is hardly talked about anymore?

That was probably did the most damage to PC graal. People complained, nothing really changed, people adapted, life went on.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Mykel

Pricing packages have changed time after time for PC graal. Actually paying to play PC graal changed, too. How is this any different? Notice how that is hardly talked about anymore?

When p2p was introduced a majority quit. Fair enough, need to get money from somewhere.

When Gold/VIP/Classic Lifetime was removed in favor of the current pricing, Graal was dying. Yes, dying. Playercount was on a global decline. It wasn't until Zodiac/Era got rid of trial restrictions that we saw a small comeback in players. It's been slowly recovering but that damage could have been avoided. You'd think the iPlayers would have saved the playercount but they avoided PC Graal because they viewed it (and still do) as too expensive. Only a handful actually bother to stay on Zodiac or Era. Few play UN.

[oo_jazz_oo]

All PC servers need to remove observer mode...period....Graal cannot grow with this in place. You cant even test out the server enough before you decide if you want to shovel out 50 dollars for a subscription.

Zodiac and Era are on the right track...GK as well (I think?). Now all the other servers need to follow suite.
But you cant just stop there, there needs to be some incentive to subscribe. I know theres something on Zodiac, dunno bout the rest, I don't play those servers.

iPhone Graal actually did something right. The game was free. You could download, and play.
If you wanted to, you could pay a couple dollars to customize your outfit, get a home, w/e.
Then it just seems after that Stefan/Unixmad started to take advantage of the players and started slapping price tags on everything...which is why this thread was created in the first place...

Even that is not horrible...companies do that all the time. Allow something for free for a while, then put a price on it.
However, they usually do this after they tell customers, and put a reasonable price on it.
If Google began charging for the space you use in Gmail, i'm sure it would happen overnight, and it would be priced at 20$ per GB.

(Actually, if you used the rate iPhone graal is using [12(ish)kb shield upload is 1$] a single GB would be roughly 83,333$. What a steal!)