You're welcome, Eurocenter

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Mykel

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

This isn't entirely true. Not everybody develops just for their own or their friends enjoyment, some do aspire to make money for them self through their work being sold by Eurocenter, and I can vouch that Graal management is willing to negotiate something which suits both sides.
You also have to consider that work is being sold regardless of the intention of its author, and that more often than not this is a form of graphic, a product not of Graal's development tools, nor are they necessarily being uploaded through a development tool (RC).

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Mykel

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

This is where you're wrong. Developers and players alike have been shafted over and over throughout the years. Some developers DO do it to try to help Graal, to keep Graal interested and alive, and more importantly to give other players something to enjoy. This is what the whole thread is about. Not every developer is alike, but I know a lot of developers out there that do it for others, not for Graal or for themselves.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Mykel

Yeah, a model such as this will never work. It's not a perfect example, but there are still undeniable comparisons.

And no one said Graal was 100% imperfect. Just that they are major kinks.

Originally Posted by Mykel

And, you guys need to quit saying that you make content for Eurocenter. That has never been the case. You've made content for friends, strangers, and mostly yourself. You are using Graal's tools to upload content to Graal's servers.

I think this is just semantics.

One of the realities is this: I make content, and it goes on their servers. They have full rights, and are free to copy it, drop a price tag on it, and sell it to other people with not a dime back to me. This exact thing has happened, in fact. (It wasn't my work, but it was other players's work, so the point still holds.)


Of course, I have agreed to this deal, and it is fully legal, no disagreement there. But why would they do this? It certainly isn't drawing a good image of them, and it certainly is scaring a lot of talented people away. It is also the source of a lot of negativity in the game, due to how mixed the developers and players are.

[Crono]

very romantic kia

[DustyPorViva]

You know, usually when engine providers make you pay for development tools it's so you can sell your work commercially. Not only do we not get a single cent, but they take our work and make a profit off of it.

[fowlplay4]

I don't think I would have developed for Graal as long as I have had I had to actually pay to do so.

[fowlplay4]

I'm sure they'd rather pay the commissioned artists (the people making their iPhone graphics and websites) and so forth than pay some of the talented people in the community.

Plain and simple like Stephen said: Developers need incentive.

[oo_jazz_oo]

The system of "You pay us to make stuff, we sell it, you get nothing" will only work for so long...
Look at Graal development now. Theres not much going on...maybe with a few servers, but as a whole, nothing is happening. UN is a pretty good example of that.

Once the developers get tired, and once there aren't any more good developers, what is Stefan going to do? Re-re-release classic as another server? Oh wait, hes doing that already.

The least Stefan could do is give us adequate development tools. -_-
They charge us to make them content, dont give us proper tools, then charge us to play.
If they dont want to give a cut of the money to developers, couldnt they at least help us make content?

They throw some 10 year old tools at us, then take the content we make with them, slap em on a new platform, and re-sell it.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by WhiteDragon

=Of course, I have agreed to this deal, and it is fully legal, no disagreement there. But why would they do this? It certainly isn't drawing a good image of them, and it certainly is scaring a lot of talented people away. It is also the source of a lot of negativity in the game, due to how mixed the developers and players are.

Why complain now? This has been going on for about a decade now, on and increasing scale, yet this is the first universally agreed upon "Stefan/Unix are leeches" debates.

Nothing major has changed, other than them charging to upload shields. Remember when they decided to charge you to play certain servers? And, then charge you to play classic servers. And, then take away the "lifetime classic" subscription?

You've been paying money to upload (use the tools, same thing) in one way or another for years now.

Originally Posted by oo_jazz_oo

They charge us to make them content, dont give us proper tools, then charge us to play.

Because, that is the game! That is what Graal is! For the past 5 years or so, I would imagine that like 50% of the playerbase was involved in development somewhere or another. And, that's probably low balling it.

They are charging you for the game. You aren't doing graal any favors. You're making something for yourself and your friends. Does graal, in some way or another, benefit from that? Yes. That's the give and take.

[salesman]

You can spin it however you want, but it comes down to one simple fact: Graal makes money off of content made by paying customers without giving them any kind of compensation. Do they have to give us compensation? No. Should they? Maybe. If they did, I doubt it would be anything extraordinary.

If you really think you have what it takes to make money off of your work, go somewhere else. There are plenty of free game engines/frameworks out there that you can use. However, keep in mind that the Graal engine is extremely easy to use in comparison. Graal gives you an already fully functional game before you write a single script or create a single graphic.

edit: you can't do something for free and then turn around and complain that you're not getting paid. You knew what you were getting yourself into. It's not like they're lying to you about what they offer.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by salesman

you can't do something for free and then turn around and complain that you're not getting paid. You knew what you were getting yourself into. It's not like they're lying to you about what they offer.

Just because I've agreed to something doesn't make that thing good. There is room for improvement and I'd like to see it happen.

Originally Posted by Mykel

Why complain now? This has been going on for about a decade now, on and increasing scale, yet this is the first universally agreed upon "Stefan/Unix are leeches" debates.

Nothing major has changed, other than them charging to upload shields. Remember when they decided to charge you to play certain servers? And, then charge you to play classic servers. And, then take away the "lifetime classic" subscription?

You've been paying money to upload (use the tools, same thing) in one way or another for years now.

I can't speak for others, but personally I still play this game and still develop on this game, so every moment of this sub-par situation affects me directly. Why would I not discuss it, given that?

[Mykel]

This issssss graal. How is that so hard to understand? User content. The game has always been user content. Nothing has changed except the amount of money Eurocenter is making from it.

It honestly is as simple as saying if you don't want to not get paid for your work being used to make money, then don't contribute your work. If they start charging $40 a month to play, no one is going to play. There is a breaking point for everyone. Decide yours.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Mykel

This issssss graal. How is that so hard to understand? User content. The game has always been user content.

This is also only true to a certain extent, the game has indeed always been user content, but user content is not how the game has always been marketed.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

This is also only true to a certain extent, the game has indeed always been user content, but user content is not how the game has always been marketed.

When has the game ever been marketed?

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by Mykel

When has the game ever been marketed?

My point is that if you go to the Graal Online website Zone and Graal Kingdoms are promoted as their own game with no mention of user content despite also largely consisting of this.
PlayerWorlds are now promoted with "Create your own game" second to "Play a player-built world", but this is only a comparatively recent thing. Prior to V5 they were promoted as official games in just the same way as GK and Zone.

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by Mykel

It honestly is as simple as saying if you don't want to not get paid for your work being used to make money, then don't contribute your work. If they start charging $40 a month to play, no one is going to play. There is a breaking point for everyone. Decide yours.

I'm not sure why this needs to be viewed in such a black and white way.

I enjoy plenty of things about Graal which can't really be found other places. Wouldn't it be natural to try and improve Graal rather than drop it entirely?

[oo_jazz_oo]

Yes, that is Graal. But its getting worse.

Before, you payed to develop; not just for your friends. If you make a server specifically to entertain your friends, idk whats wrong with you.
I develop to entertain the Graal population, because I like to make stuff people like.

Subscription costs and server costs used to be much much lower. So, it wasn't horrible to pay to develop.
Then subscription prices skyrocketed, along with server rentals. Stefan began taking content from PC and slapping it on other platforms...
Thats when players start to complain.

I don't even mind paying to develop...I put up with the crappy tools they provide...
But its sad when I see other peoples hard work slapped onto the iPhone, no credit...no compensation...and Stefan rakes in the dough.

[Ducati_Link]

If I had 1$ a day for all the days iv been developing, I would be more than happy.

[sssssssssss]

You guys need to stop whining and just quit, seriously. Each one of you showing any real debate in here is quite talented. Heck, I'd love to work with any and all of you making a game if you're interested. Graal is useless, dead, and going further down the **** hole. There's a time when you just say; You know what? I am better than this, I'm moving on.

Each one of you, except a few tards, are saying that basically, so just move on. And I forgot the one dude, but he's right, the best way is to stop coding, doing gfx, and such. It's not rebelling against upper management because you're not an employee ... you're just some dirt bag to them. Besides the fact its far worse to be retarded and let yourself and your talent get used than to "stick it to the man".

[Vinka]

Originally Posted by sssssssssss

You guys need to stop whining and just quit, seriously. Each one of you showing any real debate in here is quite talented. Heck, I'd love to work with any and all of you making a game if you're interested. Graal is useless, dead, and going further down the **** hole. There's a time when you just say; You know what? I am better than this, I'm moving on.

Each one of you, except a few tards, are saying that basically, so just move on. And I forgot the one dude, but he's right, the best way is to stop coding, doing gfx, and such. It's not rebelling against upper management because you're not an employee ... you're just some dirt bag to them. Besides the fact its far worse to be retarded and let yourself and your talent get used than to "stick it to the man".

Thanks.

Those words just gave me the extra push to forever quit what I had been working on for months.

[kia345]

Originally Posted by Vinka

Thanks.

Those words just gave me the extra push to forever quit what I had been working on for months.

You're taking encouragement from one of the biggest idiots

[WhiteDragon]

Originally Posted by kia345

You're taking encouragement from one of the biggest idiots

And the non-ad-hominem view:

Graal is a good platform for starting out, meeting people, and having fun. I don't think it's dead, useless, or going into the ground.

But, it has major problems, including ones that are core to its model and might not be fixed. Leaving could be the right choice.

All this said, it is best to not make decisions when you're burned out or annoyed about something. Often resting on an idea can lead to a choice you'll be happier with in the future.

[Admins]

I think this topic has been discussed enough now. I hope players still have fun playing the game and creating servers and developing. If there is content which has been used without authorization then please contact us.