The Money Problem

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by MontyPython

Please elaborate. Capitalism in its true form (doesn't exist currently) allows anyone with the work ethic, talent, and willpower to go as far as they wish. Socialism keeps everyone at the same level, no matter what your goals/talents may be. There's no reason to work hard when you get nothing more for it than someone who only does the bare minimum to survive. But this argument really isn't keeping in line with the thread's actual topic.

As obviously indicated in posts before you, 750,000 is > than 400,000. I can't write it any simpler than that.

One of the most? I'm assuming you're talking about America. America might still be the "most" capitalistic region, however, that's a very very relative term. We've been heading down the path to socialism for a very long time, mostly initiated back with FDR and his "New Deal" shenanigans.

With our current status and what's coming in the future, I classify America as capitalistic in name only.

But once again, this isn't really what this topic is about.

Taxes aren't a good way to remove money. It's not like real life, people might play the game for a while, then stop. Do they still get taxed? That'd be absurd. It'd be great to come back after a long break to an entirely empty bank account. In real life, you don't just take a break (unless you decide welfare is a good route for you). I could keep going, but anyways.

I've never been partial to taxes in a game but there are literally no money drains on Era. The money gained by purchasing a shovel far exceeds the cost of repairing it when it breaks.

The only way Era could hope to get the economy to a stable level is either releasing more (expensive) luxury items that are worth purchasing, or implementing a tax.

If you really insisted upon a tax being put into Era, the only kind that would be acceptable is a static percentage value for everyone. Obviously the richest are still losing the most money, but they're not being punished with a higher rate simply for being successful.

But let's forget taxes, just removing money for the sake of removing money doesn't solve too much. If items like guns had more upkeep costs other than ammo, it'd be a bit more realistic. Would it be annoying to have to pay to repair your gun at times? Absolutely. But taxes would also be annoying. There's that big question of how realistic do we really want a game to be? Where does the realism start ruining the fun? Changes should be made to make the economy more fair overall, but we don't want to sacrifice the fun of the game by making it some demanding, realistic high-upkeep/maintenance simulation.

I still don't see where you're going with this punishment for being successful argument since the fact of the matter is, if you're earning more money, you will retain more money regardless of what you are taxed.

I don't even have to mention that most of the people near the top of the wealth charts have obtained their wealth by fraudulent means, or that the economy is virtually non-existent and wealth has no value because as best I can tell, a majority of the top tier items were either given to friends by staff members or duplicated by bug abuse.

Unless there's a store somewhere selling these high end guns that I'm completely unaware of.

[jorollychu]

era economy will never be fixed as long as 16 year old admins like helping out their friends

[darthSaKi]

I think concerns that a progressive tax will kill incentive to be successful are a little alarmist and misguided. A progressive tax on monetary exchanges would not lead to the scenario where you go inactive and come back with your bank account zapped. Think of it like a sales tax, if you aren't buying things you aren't being taxed. I would not discourage players to be successful or work hard, the tax would simply take money out of the economy. Money, largely, which was introduced fraudulently. I don't understand where your fears are coming from, and the only source I can think of is that the layman's shallow fear of anything associated with "socialism" are being regurgitated on here. But please, if I'm mistaken and there is another well-founded point of view, do your best to lay out your reasoning in a clear argument. I am open to being convinced otherwise.

[CharlieM]

Theres almost no fraud money in the economy anymore. Leave era's economy alone your lucky it even works for you

[Venom_Fish]

Progressive Tax on Era would not discourage anyone, that is established.
Even if you are losing 25 percent of 1,000,000. You will still have more than the man who is losing 10 percent of 300,000$. I couldn't imagine the soul that would look upon that and immediately engulf himself in a cape of hopelessness.

In any event, Progress Tax would work but really is unnecessary.
New Players just need a way to get a foothold in the economy, and there needs to be Affordable Weapons of Each Class available for purchase on a "ladder" of levels. All of these must have an unlimited supply available, also returning "player" shops which these items can be sold in. New Players can muscle up the few thousand dollars to purchase shops. Whether its from the NPC-Server or from players. The value for player-shops will be within their range, that we can be sure of.
Start: Uzi, AK, Shotgun, Handgun
Mid-Level: Mk23s, M3, Xm8, Tec9
High-Level: Sg552, Daewoo, Artillery Cannon, and a New Handgun.

So a weapon of each class is available in an inf. supply. I notice players value weapons based on their rarity, so due to these having no rarity, new players will ALWAYS be able to afford them.

All classes:
Handgun
SMG
Assault Rifle
Shotgun

(Heavy Artillery they'd have to work on when they are "well-accomplished".)
Ex. SD Cannon, Flak, Gatlin Guns, Mini-Gun etc etc.

This is something our ever so useful Business Admin should be thinking of.

[MontyPython]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

As obviously indicated in posts before you, 750,000 is > than 400,000. I can't write it any simpler than that.


I've never been partial to taxes in a game but there are literally no money drains on Era. The money gained by purchasing a shovel far exceeds the cost of repairing it when it breaks.

The only way Era could hope to get the economy to a stable level is either releasing more (expensive) luxury items that are worth purchasing, or implementing a tax.


I still don't see where you're going with this punishment for being successful argument since the fact of the matter is, if you're earning more money, you will retain more money regardless of what you are taxed.

I don't even have to mention that most of the people near the top of the wealth charts have obtained their wealth by fraudulent means, or that the economy is virtually non-existent and wealth has no value because as best I can tell, a majority of the top tier items were either given to friends by staff members or duplicated by bug abuse.

I never said you wouldn't retain more money, but you're also losing more money than you should be. If you have a fixed percentage tax, the richer person still will lose more money than the poorer. But why you should increase the amount they are taxed simply because they have more money, that makes no sense to me. That is punishment for succeeding. It's a short-sighted, poor way to remove money from an economy. Will it throw you, the rich player, into an immediate economic down-spiral that results in your own demise? Of course not. But will it be a discouraging factor? It should be.

As for the dislike of taxes in games - good, we agree on something. I already said that you could introduce gun repairs/upkeep. That's the biggest problem, really. Once something's released, it never decays or breaks. So it's always at maximum, peak value. The only way to lessen its value is to release more. You could stabilize the economy a bit by having all weapons available from shops at all times. That would ensure the player market doesn't get out of control, but it'd also pretty much kill the player market in general. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your own opinion/dealings with the player market.

Yeah, a lot of money/items have been spawned or obtained through fraudulent means. Shouldn't mean we just tolerate it and tax them more heavily. There are some legitimate rich players, they shouldn't have to suffer just because it's assumed that everyone that is rich cheated. And besides, there shouldn't be any kind of spawning/glitch abuse that goes unpunished or unaddressed. Obviously that's something that happens much more frequently because the server's staff is drawn from the player-base. It's getting better, from what I'm seeing. It'll never completely die out, especially on a server like Era....but still.

[Spikedude]

If you are just suddenly taking money from people, they're going to be pissed. If you implement a new system to make money, it won't fix anything. If you sell guns like sg552s at an npc shop, nobody would ever bother to make more money than that. If you implement a system that takes money from the rich and gives them an item in exchange (IE ww2 shop), then those items will just become priceless again and nothing will be changed. And this happens in every regular game. Every RPG I've ever played has the occasional crazy disgusting weapons that nobody in the world can afford. There's only a few of them on Era, the only difference is that 5 : 200 is a lot worse than 5 : 6000000.

If you want my opinion, I've said for a long time we should implement a series of new quests with prizes like certain undroppable hats or some that lead to shops, like the xm8 mk23 shop. Others yet would give like 10 undroppable buffs and can be completed once a day by any player. Only, this time, make the quests WAY harder and possibly have items that the player is required to purchase prior to entering the quest. Maybe they need to bribe a security guard for 5000 dollars, etc. This way, between the door charge, the price of food, the price of ammo, and the probable cost of losing the quest (which apparently wasn't important in the previous quests, which one trial can walk through on his own with a handgun and probably not die). Also, the poorer people wouldn't be partaking in the quests as often because they don't have as much money to throw away. Therefore, the ones who worked for their money still have a bit of an advantage, so nobody gets angry, but their advantage will be constantly being reduced.

And Wil, sorry your "ever so useful Business Admin" thinks that barely changing what's already implemented to include stronger guns that would mess the economy up 4x as hard as it already is might not be the best idea. The reason some of them arent' at infinite stock is because they'd be too overpowered at infinite stock.

People talking about socialism and progressive taxes, seriously? This is a video game, guys. Do I really need to worry about my hard-earned virtual-money going to "building new roads in our community?" Are you guys turning in to robin hood? Maybe people could have a little fun on Era if every once in a while they would treat it like a game.

[Venom_Fish]

Seeing as most of that response is a pure squirm for confirmation. I'll reply to the portion dealing with my point, and let you all take of yours.

In any event, you're making claims without anything to back them.
By mid-level and HIGH-Level, I never meant with enough power to compete with Era's Rare Items. I simply used those tiers as a way to distinguish the guns from the preceding ones.

High-Level Weapons will not exceed what we know as the nowaday (Sg552, or Artillery Cannon).. which in the player-market are worth under a 100,000 dollars combined. Mid-Level weapons are worth from 18-30,000 dollars. Low-Level Weapons are worth 5-15,000$. Do you understand concept? If you limit these items, their value will rise. Weapon Values are MAINLY measured by their rarity.

Ex. The Xm8 in my opinion is better than the M4. Yet due to its rarity, the M4 has a much higher value.

If players want to be content with Sg552 and guns of that tier. Then so be it, but they will still be able to compete in the PK-Field. Most-often they would then have the tools they need to work the player-market and obtain weapons of a higher class. Ex. If you have every weapon in the Sg552 tier, you can afford a Sten or guns in a much higher tier.

Thats my point, its not to buff anything at all. So before you make assumptions, think... I beg of you.

Giving an item an infinite stock, actually lessens its value and is disservice to the item. Not the other way around, I thought someone who boasts of his "experience" would understand that simple concept. A novelty nickel is only as valuable as the # of the in the world. If they are fluent, then it loses value. In sense, Quantity deducts from Quality.

[Spikedude]

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

High-Level Weapons will not exceed what we know as the nowaday (Sg552, or Artillery Cannon).. which in the player-market are worth under a 100,000 dollars combined. Mid-Level weapons are worth from 18-30,000 dollars. Low-Level Weapons are worth 5-15,000$. Do you understand concept? If you limit these items, their value will rise. Weapon Values are MAINLY measured by their rarity.

Ex. The Xm8 in my opinion is better than the M4. Yet due to its rarity, the M4 has a much higher value.

1. You literally JUST said "infinite stock."

2. "Pure squirm for confirmation" -- what the hell are you talking about?

3. I told you why I disagree with your plan, I still do for the exact same reasons, even though you've now babbled off about "well I wouldn't need to buff anything!" I have no idea what your last post was even about, because it had nothing to do with my response.

Edit: I get what you were trying to say now. My point is nobody is going to be "happier" by throwing an sg552 and a brand new handgun into an unstick me shop so that any random person with money can buy them. We need to take OUT these guns, not release more of them into the public. I don't care if it would make them WORTH less, they're still overpowered and leave noobs with handguns/uzis/aks COMPLETELY useless against them.

[xnervNATx]

put a shop with every guns @ 30 stocks each and let everyone fight for them

[CharlieM]

Era's economy is starting to level out ultra-rare guns are less then they were and low levels are staying low

[ldhfd]

Originally Posted by Venom_Fish

Seeing as most of that response is a pure squirm for confirmation. I'll reply to the portion dealing with my point, and let you all take of yours.

In any event, you're making claims without anything to back them.
By mid-level and HIGH-Level, I never meant with enough power to compete with Era's Rare Items. I simply used those tiers as a way to distinguish the guns from the preceding ones.

High-Level Weapons will not exceed what we know as the nowaday (Sg552, or Artillery Cannon).. which in the player-market are worth under a 100,000 dollars combined. Mid-Level weapons are worth from 18-30,000 dollars. Low-Level Weapons are worth 5-15,000$. Do you understand concept? If you limit these items, their value will rise. Weapon Values are MAINLY measured by their rarity.

Ex. The Xm8 in my opinion is better than the M4. Yet due to its rarity, the M4 has a much higher value.

I agree with you that the rarer the weapon is, the higher the price. But you also have to take in the gameplay aspects of each weapon as well. Comparing the xm8 to the M4 is like comparing the handgun to the mk23s. The M4 has a much faster firing rate, and has two burst modes. Xm8 is very slow, and only has one burst mode.

Even though the M4 sells for around 45k. I have no problem spending my money i worked for in the mines on the M4. I analyzed and compared it to the daewoo and terrabolt as well. The ideal weapon for me are those that have a very fast rate and moderate damage. M4 fits my niche perfectly. I just pray that when i do get the money needed to satisfy this inflated market, it will still be 45k.