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  #361  
Old 03-26-2009, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tigairius View Post
Hopefully it would push development faster, you guys complained about an inactive manager and Thor isn't inactive. Now you have an active manager.
We complained about an inactive manager, now we are complaining about an inappropriate manager and a bad staff structure. They're pretty different issues, but one was the effect of something that you caused and the other was due to neglect. What do you think a manager does?

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Originally Posted by Tigairius View Post
Of course I know Graal is comprised entirely of players. I am obviously talking about the differences between the players on Classic and the staff on Classic. There are obvious differences between being a player and being staff.

Here is your typical twisting of my words again, I never said anyone's opinion is worthless.
Obvious differences between being a player and being staff? Yeah? Then how come nearly ever player on Classic that is talking in this thread, if not EVERY SINGLE ONE is currently or has been staff at one or more points.

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Originally Posted by Tigairius View Post
I don't doubt that some of the players on Classic know more about what goes on behind the scenes than I do, but that doesn't mean everything they say is automatically fact and we should listen to everything they say and take it to heart.
So you're basically admitting that the players of Classic know better than you do about their own server, to some extent, but because they're players (which.. well, see above points) their word is untrustworthy/less important to you? There was an obvious majority opinion on what the players were saying, and it was pretty obvious what the overall message was too.
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Seriously, you have ****-all for content and you're not exactly pulling in new developer talent, angling for prestigious titles should be your last concern.
  #362  
Old 03-26-2009, 07:39 PM
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You guys have the right to be angry, the decision was fuxed up and all, but arguing with Tig is a waste, you can break it down and have him realize his decision was wrong or whatever, but what will it do?

What we need is to understand the advantages of their decision and see what we can do to make this decision, even if you think it's complete bullocks, a smart one.
  #363  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
If a member of the staff team had posted it, would you have answered it? That can be arranged.
the puppet master reveals himself
  #364  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
the puppet master reveals himself
You act as though I'm the only one who has those questions.
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Originally Posted by Loriel View Post
Seriously, you have ****-all for content and you're not exactly pulling in new developer talent, angling for prestigious titles should be your last concern.
  #365  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:26 PM
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Just stop it, no one person is to blame. There's enough fighting and drama going on without you guys starting to attack each other too
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  #366  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:27 PM
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Considering what the players have said, or hell, what most of everyone has been saying. Then considering the outcome of the month long 'review' and the response from the PWA members, mostly Tig, that followed.

All of this seems like one gigantic middle finger to the populace of Classic.
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  #367  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:32 PM
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What outcome would of satisfied everyone?
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  #368  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:34 PM
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pull the plug
  #369  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell View Post
What outcome would of satisfied everyone?
No one outcome can satisfy everyone.
However, there was one big resounding message in this thread for the first 20 pages that seems to have been largely ignored.
I don't know how to answer that question on behalf of the majority without sounding like I'm 'tooting my own horn'.
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  #370  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK View Post
No one outcome can satisfy everyone.
However, there was one big resounding message in this thread for the first 20 pages that seems to have been largely ignored.
I don't know how to answer that question on behalf of the majority without sounding like I'm 'tooting my own horn'.
you're joking, right?

I saw about 6 people say DC for manager, many of whom were probably manipulated by their master.
  #371  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:39 PM
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By all means, toot.
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  #372  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
you're joking, right?

I saw about 6 people say DC for manager, many of whom were probably manipulated by their master.
Are you really that mad that I helped your lifetime ban stick?
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  #373  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK View Post
Are you really that mad that I helped your lifetime ban stick?
are you really that stupid that you're unable to go back and do a simple tally?
  #374  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
are you really that stupid that you're unable to go back and do a simple tally?
Pretty sure the PWA did a tally of players voting on who they would like to see as manager, and why they would like to see them as manager.
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Originally Posted by Loriel View Post
Seriously, you have ****-all for content and you're not exactly pulling in new developer talent, angling for prestigious titles should be your last concern.
  #375  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
are you really that stupid that you're unable to go back and do a simple tally?
Certainly more than 6.
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  #376  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
Pretty sure the PWA did a tally of players voting on who they would like to see as manager, and why they would like to see them as manager.
So how many people voted for DC outside of Uncommon Society?

Even if the PWA did this, why would I need to see their tally to go back and look at the first 20 pages of this thread, as DC suggested?
  #377  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK View Post
Certainly more than 6.
You're right, I was off.

Going back and looking at people who quite clearly endorsed you for being manager, the total is more like 3.
  #378  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
You're right, I was off.

Going back and looking at people who quite clearly endorsed you for being manager, the total is more like 3.
Okay bud.
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  #379  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
You're right, I was off.

Going back and looking at people who quite clearly endorsed you for being manager, the total is more like 3.
Are you counting mine?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jacob_bald6225 View Post
Sadly I think even DC alone would've been a better choice than this.
  #380  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
So how many people voted for DC outside of Uncommon Society?
I don't know I didn't vote, nor did I hear any results from the voting. For your information though, the thought of DC becoming manager of Classic has mixed reviews from the people within US.
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Originally Posted by Loriel View Post
Seriously, you have ****-all for content and you're not exactly pulling in new developer talent, angling for prestigious titles should be your last concern.
  #381  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:49 PM
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The reality of it is this, no one situation is or will be perfect. Can't we just let it go for a little while and see if the situation actually changes for the better before passing judgement on a ruling yet to be tested?
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  #382  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacob_bald6225 View Post
Are you counting mine?
that was page 22.

I saw a bunch of posts like that all after the first 20 pages.

It's hilarious that DC would accuse someone else of raging when the past 6 pages have been him blindly insulting everyone involved in making Thor co-manager because he's upset his scheme of the month didn't work.
  #383  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:54 PM
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Aren't you the one that started this whole thread? Only to flip on your position of things when you got your 6-7th ban and finally got your lifetime one?
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  #384  
Old 03-26-2009, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnervNATx View Post
i laura agree with kevin.

and i think DC would fit the job
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Originally Posted by PH@NTOM View Post
Two people who are manager, for example DC and Thor, this way they can look over one another's shoulder, I don't know though that's just my input!
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Originally Posted by BlackSolider View Post
Is that an ultimatum? Maybe the start of a DC 4 Manager campaign?

You have a good point though. The people have little faith in stormo's ability to get things changed based on his history. Unless he can show otherwise pretty quickly, DC might have just made a sound suggestion.
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Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK View Post
Aren't you the one that started this whole thread? Only to flip on your position of things when you got your 6-7th ban and finally got your lifetime one?
oh look, 3 (2 of which aren't even explicit) endorsements for you to manage.

I started this thread and I still believe in what I started it for.

It's not my fault you somehow warped my thread into an ill-fated campaign for manager.

I obviously said I believe Classic needs a new manager, but never once did I say it needed you.
  #385  
Old 03-26-2009, 09:12 PM
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I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been largely ignoring what you've been saying since you can't seem to spout retarded statements like how my whole 2 posts against the PWA about not arguing with players about the outcome, since it makes things worse, turns into me raging for 6 pages on them.

Good exaggeration there.

Edit:
This message is hidden because Mark Sir Link is on your ignore list.
Nice.
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  #386  
Old 03-26-2009, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK View Post
I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been largely ignoring what you've been saying since you can't seem to spout retarded statements like how my whole 2 posts against the PWA about not arguing with players about the outcome, since it makes things worse, turns into me raging for 6 pages on them.

Good exaggeration there.
Too bad this post doesn't even make sense.

Blind rage

Last edited by Mark Sir Link; 03-26-2009 at 10:52 PM..
  #387  
Old 03-26-2009, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
I obviously said I believe Classic needs a new manager, but never once did I say it needed you.
Who then?
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Seriously, you have ****-all for content and you're not exactly pulling in new developer talent, angling for prestigious titles should be your last concern.
  #388  
Old 03-26-2009, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
Who then?
I would honestly say with Kat back, he'd be the best choice.

And I haven't talked to him or seen his work in 4 years.
  #389  
Old 03-26-2009, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
oh look, 3 (2 of which aren't even explicit) endorsements for you to manage.
Don't forget my very specific opposition to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
I would honestly say with Kat back, he'd be the best choice.
I have zero interest in such a position.

Most people don't know/realize this, but the core logic of the server from a scripting standpoint is COMPLETELY flawed. You literally cannot make any change without affecting a ridiculous amount of other things that've all been done the way whoever was doing them saw fit, rather than trying to have any sort of global structure and follow it. The fact that the HP problem described in another thread still exists and can't even be easily tracked down by myself or anyone else is a perfect example of this.

That sort of seems like a tangent, but it's just one of the reasons I personally wouldn't want anything to do with being responsible for the entire server. I can't even stand to go on there NOW with no official staff position.

In my opinion, the issue I described above is the TRUE cause of delays and issues on the server. It certainly has prevented me from having any interest in doing much of anything. I'm pretty sure that any of the actual scripters would agree. They just tolerate it. The problem gets worse with new additions being done in the same fashion: doing whatever is necessary to make it work without any real structure. This isn't necessarily their fault (although I wouldn't be at all surprised if at least some of them do things this way regardless) at this point, as you simply don't have a choice.

Real progress, despite it not being visible to the players, would be an INTELLIGENT reworking of the "core" with actual thought put into it that other people and scripts will be using the code. Not some huge amalgamation of random chunks of code that just "work" and were conceived of in a box where only the person who made them and only their scripts exist.
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  #390  
Old 03-26-2009, 10:32 PM
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If this many people are unsatisfied with the PWA decision, what gives you guys the motive to defend your decision? The players asked for a review of management. Not a review to add another manager. The review should of been declared over because Storm is active right about now. Not sure what the future case may be with 2 managers.

I'm not sure how two people with full control over the server is going to work out. But I'm going to want to see so PWA can feel stupid about themselves, when the downplay comes out that we all are anticipating. PWA are looking stupid right now trying to defend themselves when a majority of the players are unsatisfied with the decision.

I have no problem with Storm or Thor, but 2 managers shouldn't be the case, on any server. Reasons already stated.
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  #391  
Old 03-26-2009, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Ramirez- View Post
Don't forget my very specific opposition to it.
Just as many people opposed as supported, which I would have pointed out if DC had persisted.

Quote:
I have zero interest in such a position.

Most people don't know/realize this, but the core logic of the server from a scripting standpoint is COMPLETELY flawed.
Yes.
  #392  
Old 03-26-2009, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link View Post
that was page 22.
:-( Mine wasnt a serious suggestion.
  #393  
Old 03-26-2009, 10:49 PM
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:-( Mine wasnt a serious suggestion.
I figured as much
  #394  
Old 03-26-2009, 10:53 PM
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Well its just safe to bet money on now classic being thrown into the ****ter again for a couple of more years. I wouldn't expect anything to good now that we have two people who are not capable of managing as our managers. Hoorah!
  #395  
Old 03-26-2009, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill View Post
So you don't have a response to what I said?
Sorry, I didn't see it. After I responded to Ramirez, I went to bed.

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Originally Posted by Kill View Post
You misunderstood what I was trying to say. We wanted you guys to do a full detailed constructed review whereby you looked at ALL the aspects of the server. Based on your decision alone, you have not done this.
Also, you singled out my opening statement of my full paragraph. If you quoted it fully (assuming you read it) you would've understood what I was trying to get at.

TSA you were invited, but the way you and your team approached this was all wrong.
I hope it's not like this in the future, you guys look like a complete and utter joke as of now.
I could have walked around on Classic with the 2 or 3 people that were on each day over the past couple of weeks until my virtual feet bled, but no amount of walking around on the server was going to get my review input to be swayed by something like
"This tile looks like it's been inactive for 4 years"
but since merely being on the server didn't seem to be productively moving anything along, it was a good thing that the people still had a voice.

The moments in which I was able to get in contact with a tiny mass of people on Classic at one time, all I got were a 3-4 man strong set of "DC Supporters" who only moaned and complained how they wanted DC as Manager, but honestly avoided most of my questions by giving deflective answers, so I knew that DC would never get manager as he were one of the people in the room, as well. You can't hope to reach the top if you deflect everything.

This, in-turn, left only 1 real aspect to fulfil which was to just speak to those who would speak, and Bell summed that up pretty well. When given the chance, I had quite a few people simply say "I'll post it on the forum thread later" who never did, and never showed up again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticX2X View Post
I have no problem with Storm or Thor, but 2 managers shouldn't be the case, on any server. Reasons already stated.
While I have already stated that I see where people are coming from on the Duel Manager thing, and even showed you my opinion on it, they're big boys. I am sure that now they're both mature enough to (if they so decided) discuss between each other if there should be a "Co-Manager" instead of "2 Managers" and further decide which of the two should take up that position. That, in my opinion, is now entirely up to them.
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  #396  
Old 03-26-2009, 11:47 PM
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I am sure that now they're both mature enough to (if they so decided) discuss between each other if there should be a "Co-Manager" instead of "2 Managers" and further decide which of the two should take up that position.
I personally found this to be very bothersome. You must have only had the most positive of experiences with Storm. To himself, most actions of his are justifiable, and the ones that aren't aren't severe enough to warrant anything negative being done. So no, he's not capable. This is pretty evident by the fact that he hasn't stepped down on his own.

Feel free to point out that this is my opinion of his actions. You'd be right, but what, exactly, DOES it take before it's severe enough without just plain being "corrupt"? There is no clear rule to go by here, it's all based on opinion of severity. Clearly myself and a lot of others think that what has transpired IS enough. The time involved is BEYOND ridiculous.
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  #397  
Old 03-26-2009, 11:51 PM
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I think I might have called the outcome of this thread somewhere... but before I make some long winded posts to further sidetrack this thread, I want to get my facts straight first...

First off, I want to see the results (by account name) from the poll house on Classic, preferably posted by Storm, or a member of the PWA (I don't want to run the risk of the results being tampered with). Just post the list of who voted for what option. I do this because I call the validity of the poll results into question. I spent some time 'idling' in the poll house and seen a number of players warped in and told to vote against the PWA decision. I would even bet that there is a second or even third account used by the 'whiners' to further influence the results.

Secondly, I'd like to know why some of the issues players are bringing up now regarding the validity of the PWA review weren't addressed from the very beginning (such as "the PWA don't play Classic, how can they make a decision").

Thirdly, I'd like to point out that the two primary 'whiners' had some personal agenda regarding who should replace Storm, and insist on causing this drama after the decision (with the help of a lacky or two).
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  #398  
Old 03-26-2009, 11:52 PM
Darlene159 Darlene159 is offline
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Reading this thread is very disappointing.
I really hope that all of you will find a way to accept the PWA's decision, and try to work together for the better of Classic.
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  #399  
Old 03-27-2009, 12:08 AM
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I'm probably going to be rambling again, but after seeing 4 pages added since I last checked this thread this morning, it would seemingly fit in.

Look. What's done is done. The PWAs have made their decision, right or wrong, and we have to stick with it. The players asked for a review of management, hoping for the removal of storm. The PWAs decided that, upon 'extensive' review, that storm could indeed still do his job, but he needed some help from someone a bit more active. Thus the solution of two managers was decided upon. As far as I know, these are the facts.

Now obviously some people have questioned the way in which this review occurred. They got opinions from some people, but not all. They got opinions from some admins, but not all. But lets be realistic here. It'd be nearly impossible to get the opinion of every single person who played classic. Apparently some admins were left out by accident, though I'm not sure how that can happen. Then again, we all make mistakes.

The problem I found with the review is that when the PWAs asked 'who would be a good manager', they really left a lot of open room. Who exactly was qualified? Who exactly wanted the job in the first place? What would that person actually (or at least promise) do as manager? The problem I saw is that many people knew they wanted a new manager, but weren't exactly sure who they wanted. Some people, such as DC, actively promoted themselves and listed a few things they would try to do. Other people suggested Thor, stryker, kat, or sometimes rufus. The problem was, most of these candidates never posted (at least that I saw) their credentials or their plans for the server, if they wanted the job at all.

So as far as I can tell, we had the majority of the playerbase wanting a new manager, but wasn't exactly sure who. Thus the PWAs were left scratching their heads, and eventually settled on the decision that they did.

IMO, though the 2 manager system could work out, it probably wasn't the best solution. In a review of management, the PWAs should review whether the manager in question can do his job or not. If the answer is yes, then that person should be left as manager. If the answer is no, then that manager needs to be removed completely. Then, they need to gather up all the qualified people and see if they are interested in the job. Of those that are, they need to hold a week-long poll/discussion about who the people think the best manager would be. The potentials would present their plan in a thread, and both the PWAs and players would vote for the next manager. If they came to the same conclusion, then we would have a new manager. If not, they would need to see why the people thought person A was more qualified than Person B, who was picked by the PWAs, and then discuss it more and then come to a decision.

At least, thats how I think a review should go. The players, if presented a list, should know who they'd want to take their server into the future. The PWAs, if presented a list, should be able to figure out (with investigations) who the best person would be. That's not how it was done, and its too late to change it.

Let us forget about these PWAs and focus on our future. If we work hard enough, perhaps we'll never have to ask them for their 'assistance' again, since apparently all they create is massive forum arguments. I respect the PWAs and all, since holding a review of a server they don't play certainly isn't easy. But with results and backlash like this, maybe they need to rethink how they handle these reviews. Nonetheless, we must now make due with what we have, which is two managers.
  #400  
Old 03-27-2009, 12:11 AM
StrykerTFFD StrykerTFFD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus_asinus View Post
Thirdly, I'd like to point out that the two primary 'whiners' had some personal agenda regarding who should replace Storm, and insist on causing this drama after the decision (with the help of a lacky or two).
Who are your two primary whiners? I think I've exposed more flaws in the process than anyone and I had no agenda.

Still haven't been offered any explanation as to why I was completely overlooked on two aspects of this review. Apologies are cheap, reasons why are worth more.
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