New Trial System

[Vima]

LOOK :

Graal Playercount this year:



Unholy Nation this year:



but maybe this is just temp... it's probably caused by the financial crisis thats going on.

[Soala]

The whole point of Graal is that it's a very small community, where you can make sure friends and you know you'll keep them for a long time, because there are not 350,000 other people playing and trying to look like anyone else.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Vima

but maybe this is just temp... it's probably caused by the financial crisis thats going on.

Or maybe because summer break is over and school is starting, plus the upcoming Wrath of the Lich King?

[Yocas]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Or maybe because summer break is over and school is starting, plus the upcoming Wrath of the Lich King?

I'm pretty sure classes are going to be empty and there will be almost no traffic on the release date for this.

[Soala]

Originally Posted by Yocas

I'm pretty sure classes are going to be empty and there will be almost no traffic on the release date for this.

Oh I see you've started to argue on anything you see. Since when ?

If you'r not happy with it then you can leave, but I guess there is still something in graal that makes you stay, because you sir sill got a job.

[Yocas]

Originally Posted by alexandralove

Oh I see you've started to argue on anything you see. Since when ?

If you'r not happy with it then you can leave, but I guess there is still something in graal that makes you stay, because you sir sill got a job.

What the hell are you talking about? I was referring to Wrath of the Lich King. Why are you so quick to jump and fight for Graal? I didn't even say anything about it. Calm down kid.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Yocas

I'm pretty sure classes are going to be empty and there will be almost no traffic on the release date for this.

Yes, indeed.

[Raeiphon]

Originally Posted by alexandralove

The whole point of Graal is that it's a very small community, where you can make sure friends and you know you'll keep them for a long time, because there are not 350,000 other people playing and trying to look like anyone else.

No.

Friendship is not the point of Graal.

I did not join and pay for Graal with the anticipation of making new friends. I joined and paid for Graal so I could experience the features I was being denied in the trial.

With the community in the state it is, I'd asked to be paid to stay rather than pay to stay. The lead developers are incompetent at any form of marketing strategy, completely incapable of listening to customers about what they want, and attempt to mask all this over with various 'competitions' that imply that CJ is infact financially well enough off to offer such promotions.

This game is utterly doomed to fail if several things do not happen:

* The current trial system needs to be revised.
* The current payment system needs to be revised.
* Development and costs thereof need to be reassesed and expanded (the tools, not the cost)
* The game needs to be advertised. HEAVILY.
* Global guidelines for server operation and moderation need to be set and enforced by global staff
* Strict quality control and regular staff monitoring needs to be set and enforced by global staff
* The entire 'multiplayer-only' facet of many servers needs to be eradicated and replaced with a system that allows for proper play with or without a community present

If none of these happen, Graal will die. At the current rate of depletion, I can only see maybe three or four years left in the project. Something needs to be done.

[Yocas]

Originally Posted by Raeiphon

No.

Friendship is not the point of Graal.

I did not join and pay for Graal with the anticipation of making new friends. I joined and paid for Graal so I could experience the features I was being denied in the trial.

With the community in the state it is, I'd asked to be paid to stay rather than pay to stay. The lead developers are incompetent at any form of marketing strategy, completely incapable of listening to customers about what they want, and attempt to mask all this over with various 'competitions' that imply that CJ is infact financially well enough off to offer such promotions.

This game is utterly doomed to fail if several things do not happen:

* The current trial system needs to be revised.
* The current payment system needs to be revised.
* Development and costs thereof need to be reassesed and expanded (the tools, not the cost)
* The game needs to be advertised. HEAVILY.
* Global guidelines for server operation and moderation need to be set and enforced by global staff
* Strict quality control and regular staff monitoring needs to be set and enforced by global staff
* The entire 'multiplayer-only' facet of many servers needs to be eradicated and replaced with a system that allows for proper play with or without a community present

If none of these happen, Graal will die. At the current rate of depletion, I can only see maybe three or four years left in the project. Something needs to be done.

Once again I say, you're ****ing awesome.

[Soala]

Originally Posted by Raeiphon

* The game needs to be advertised. HEAVILY.

I must agree, It been a bit more than 7 years now and I still didn't see any Graal advertising. That's probably why it's such a SMALL community.

Compare to any other game, they advertise like hell, it's like you got 50ads per websites

[XdNemesisXd]

Originally Posted by alexandralove

I must agree, It been a bit more than 7 years now and I still didn't see any Graal advertising. That's probably why it's such a SMALL community.

Compare to any other game, they advertise like hell, it's like you got 50ads per websites

Graal dosn't advertise for its life. I never seen a Graal advertisment exapct where I found graal on play-free-online-games.com. The staff down't care about Graal, they just want the money, and they don't listen to us. I won't be supprised if then game ends in a few years. Whole Graal is great but it needs some fixing and they need to listen to its customers if they want some money. Rich kids arn't going to freaking keep buying when gameplay starts sucking more then it is. I agree with Yocas with alot of stuff but Ziro is right a little bit. When I first really started playing it was great, even when I first saw this game it was great, great couminty that is what keeps players. Graal needs to listen to us and they don't care.

[Thrashsoul3]

No point to advertising because Graal sucks. Classic was the pinnacle of graal, it had days worth of quests to do, great sparring and guild-related activities. Graal 2001 was fairly good but more flashy scripts and less content. Graal Kingdoms to me was a complete failure. There is not much contents, no real quests, unless you get invited to a kingdom you have no guild, there are no cities, raids, arenas, battlegrounds, world pvp is slim.
Biggest problem with graal servers is that they quit developing after release. They add extremely small updates every once in awhile. For anyone with enough skill to develop such a server, they know its a waste of their talent. Why spend so much money and time to pay Stefan and Unixmad?

[gemini2]

Jesus, you know there are seven pages of posts, most with very valid and informational points for or against certain aspects of Cyberjoueurs' marketing plans. You, or at least I, would think that Stefan or Unixmad would post once or twice to show they actually look at these topics and care about what their customers want. The sad thing is, I really and honestly doubt they listen to our responses. I know there is no way for me to know much at all about why they change the payment plans, the trial systems, gelats, or anything of the sort, but I do know that more than a few of my friends don't like it or want anything to do with it. That's mine, and a few of my friends' opinion on the matters at hand. :/

[Unkownsoldier]

Hey, wait till they get desperate, when Graal is on the brink of bankruptcy then they will listen. I saw we all should stop paying them for the next sixth months and watch what happens

[DarkReaper0]

This right here about sums up the entire predicament, anyone agree?

[konidias]

I think most of you here fail to realize that you are but a minority of players in the Graal community. This isn't an opinion. It's a statistically and consistently proven fact. The online gaming minority are always the loudest. That does not mean they should be heard over everyone else.

As a developer, they have to do what they feel is best for the game. Did you make an online game that has pulled in tens of thousands of dollars? Have you marketed online games before? Have you even had a job in the game industry? (that was actually paid, not one you did for free)

If you answered no to all of these questions, then why exactly should anyone listen to you? The truth is that 99% of player feedback is useless. Most feedback is stuff that cannot easily be implemented, or it's already in development, or it's just a totally stupid idea.

I'm sure that in your mind you can say "this and this and this would totally fix Graal! I'm sure of it!" and then stand there triumphant in your victory. That doesn't make you right. That doesn't mean your ideas are going to "save Graal" as you put it.

Honestly I find it arrogant that you feel your opinions deserve to be not only heard, but acted upon. Your gold membership (which some of you may have paid for and some of you may not have, and is probably expired) does not give you some sort of power over the game. There have been games that listened to the players too much and now they are in ruins. It's not always the solution to the problem. In fact, it rarely is.

In my opinion I see these suggestions as more as wishful thinking. Not wishful thinking that Graal will become more popular and sell better, but wishful thinking that you can change an entire game and community based off some ideas you probably thought up while sitting on the toilet. I'm sure that would make you feel really good about yourself, knowing that you were listened to and that your ideas were put into action. Join the club. Nearly everyone playing the game would love for their ideas to be taken seriously, but it's just not a realistic aspiration.

I'm not even going to bother listing what I think would make Graal better, because it's not my place to do so. Even though at one point I thought it was. At one point I thought Graal should pay the developers... at one point I was full of ideas that I thought would make Graal better. But it wasn't my place to do so, and it still isn't. I may have paid for Graal, I may have worked for Graal. I may have been a member of the Graal community for over half a decade. But that doesn't give me any right to tell them how they should run their game.

Honestly if you don't like the game, there is a better way of showing it.

Leave.

Instead of sitting here complaining day after day, and stating how there are far better games out there. Just leave and go play them. I think Graal's biggest problem is that because it's also a developer community, it makes people think they have some sort of right to dictate how Graal is run as a product. It doesn't. I'm sure you've had fun playing the game. I'm sure you've also had fun developing for the game. If that is the case, then stop complaining and move on, or stay here and learn to have tolerance for what Stefan/Unixmad want for the game.

It's not your game to change, and you are not entitled to have your opinions heard. Regardless of whether or not you paid or your parents paid or 5 years ago you got someone to upgrade your account once, or even if you own 15 accounts that you paid for yourself. It doesn't give you any more entitlement.

edit: Also, anyone posting "epic fail" or "failboat" pictures or anything of that sort... I hope that one day you look back and see just how immature and arrogant you're being. At least Cyberjoueurs has made a community of gamers that has lasted... what... nearly 10 years or more? What have you done?

You have to at least try in order to fail. I wonder what the term is for someone who doesn't even try. I'm sure you're "epic" knowledge and wisdom can give us that answer.

[Sir Kwang]

Originally Posted by XdNemesisXd

Graal dosn't advertise for its life. I never seen a Graal advertisment exapct where I found graal on play-free-online-games.com. The staff down't care about Graal, they just want the money, and they don't listen to us. I won't be supprised if then game ends in a few years. Whole Graal is great but it needs some fixing and they need to listen to its customers if they want some money. Rich kids arn't going to freaking keep buying when gameplay starts sucking more then it is. I agree with Yocas with alot of stuff but Ziro is right a little bit. When I first really started playing it was great, even when I first saw this game it was great, great couminty that is what keeps players. Graal needs to listen to us and they don't care.

what you said doesn't quite make much sense. because if all they cared about was making money then they would be advertising like hell. I'm not in any position to defend stefan or unixmad, I just think it doesn't really make sense here to assume that all their decisions are just based around cash flow. The community is not growing, if anything it's slowly shrinking.. but more than anything it's staying somewhat steady. So their cash flow is not getting any higher. I'm willing to bet that with such minor activity that goes on around here that they probably don't hardly make any kind of money off of this. I'd be surprised if they even get enough money to live without having to get a second job

[xXziroXx]

I completely agree with Konidias, and I have been from the beginning. Well said.

[WanDaMan]

Everyone has the opportunity to change Graal using the developement packages, why arn't you if you're that bothered?

[Tyhm]

If the servers are made well enough, you won't need a Computer Lockout at the end of the month; people will upgrade just because they want to keep their save data.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by konidias

In my opinion I see these suggestions as more as wishful thinking. Not wishful thinking that Graal will become more popular and sell better, but wishful thinking that you can change an entire game and community based off some ideas you probably thought up while sitting on the toilet. I'm sure that would make you feel really good about yourself, knowing that you were listened to and that your ideas were put into action. Join the club. Nearly everyone playing the game would love for their ideas to be taken seriously, but it's just not a realistic aspiration.

The topic of this thread is the trial system we have, and considering nearly every single person in this thread is not directly affected by this, I'd say the comments made towards the system were wishful that Graal can progress and sell better. Your reply was extremely dramatic and totally missing the point. While the developers of Graal are keeping this game alive in terms of content, they are very empowered to give comments towards choices that effect the servers they selflessly develop and run, day in day out. If you look at other games you will see that nearly every successful game welcomes feedback, monitors issues, and works through problems with their customers and Graal should be no different, though it's not as successful as it used to be is it?

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Rufus

The topic of this thread is the trial system we have, and considering nearly every single person in this thread is not directly affected by this, I'd say the comments made towards the system were wishful that Graal can progress and sell better. Your reply was extremely dramatic and totally missing the point. While the developers of Graal are keeping this game alive in terms of content, they are very empowered to give comments towards choices that effect the servers they selflessly develop and run, day in day out. If you look at other games you will see that nearly every successful game welcomes feedback, monitors issues, and works through problems with their customers and Graal should be no different, though it's not as successful as it used to be is it?

Something that indirectly affects people still matters just as much as things that directly affect people. There's nothing holding anyone back from making an amazing playerworld and advertising it. Nobody needs permission to advertise Graal. Again, just because someone pays for a server and develops stuff it does not give them special rights to instruct the owners of the game on how it should be run.

If I look at other games I will see that some of them have feedback forms (where those forms actually get sent to is another question entirely) Some have forums where players can give feedback too, but does it mean anyone is being heard there either? Would you feel better if you sent feedback to Graal in an e-mail and got a "thank you for your feedback, we have read and considered your feedback" letter? That doesn't mean anyone actually cared.

Graal isn't as successful as it used to be? That all depends on what you personally consider success. The playercount may be down... I'm no statistical expert and I don't know what the playercount averages out to each year... however, Graal used to be totally free. Now Graal is making money. You can argue about how much money it's making... but it's still making money. So as far as a business is concerned. Graal is far more successful than it used to be.

I have to laugh at people who pull numbers out of the sky when trying to give their "feedback". I don't think "the majority of Graal players have left!" is very accurate considering it's based on personal opinions. Maybe your friends left, maybe a handful of the population is fed up with the game and has left, but I wouldn't consider it a majority.

Just remember that 1 single paying customer is greater than 2000 free customers. (In terms of profit, at least) Sure the game would look "successful" and seem to be doing well with thousands of active players... but that just means higher server costs to keep the lag down and no profit coming in. I don't consider that a success unless you're selfless and don't mind living in an alley and running your "business" from an internet cafe.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not agreeing with their method of running a business. But I'm not going to throw in my two cents on how I think it could be better, because like I've been saying, it's not my place.

[thesmoothcriminal]

Originally Posted by konidias

crap

A good developer listens to all criticism if she/he takes pride in their work and encourages it.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by thesmoothcriminal

I think a good developer listens to all criticism if she/he takes pride in their work and encourages it.

There. I fixed your post.

It's not a fact, you don't really need to post it as one. It's a lovely opinion, but when you actually get criticism for your own online game from its players, feel free to let me know if you still have that same opinion.

When you get "criticism" like "Your game sucks, this is how I think you should fix it..." or "you should make the game free, that would get more people playing it!" or any of the thousands of unreasonable and completely idiotic suggestions and demands that you'd receive for the game, then you can tell me that everyone's voice should be heard.

There's a huge difference between constructive criticism, and ramblings of amateurs. Just because someone offers criticism it doesn't mean it should be taken, either.

Quite frankly, I'd like to see you in Unixmad's shoes, reading criticism from a kid who has no experience in working in online gaming, hasn't even held a job, has never really developed anything.... and then have you actually take him seriously.

I like how you quoted my post as "crap" though. It shows you have a really good grasp on accepting people's opinions.

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by konidias

Just remember that 1 single paying customer is greater than 2000 free customers. (In terms of profit, at least) Sure the game would look "successful" and seem to be doing well with thousands of active players... but that just means higher server costs to keep the lag down and no profit coming in.

It would look successful, and we'd be having more fun by virtue of it would be up to the old playercount. Consider the motivations; we mostly want this game to be fun. The halcyon days of Papa Unixmad paying the rent for us all are gone, but that doesn't mean we can't miss them. Regardless of whether it's our place or not.

Here's my thing - what happens if he opens ONE server (and as always I say Classic, but it's negotiable) to the Free Trials/Stops saving after 1 month system? It'll either do better or worse, and he can always switch it back if it does worse.

[thesmoothcriminal]

Originally Posted by konidias

Steaming crap

I didnt read any of that but it appears theres a problem. Try the support center for your problem they might get you some real ideas.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by konidias

I think that 1 single paying customer is greater than 2000 free customers. (In terms of profit, at least) Sure the game would look "successful" and seem to be doing well with thousands of active players... but that just means higher server costs to keep the lag down and no profit coming in. I don't consider that a success unless you're selfless and don't mind living in an alley and running your "business" from an internet cafe.

1: Take 30 minutes to install ad's on website where download is located.
2: Watch said 2001 customers enter said site...
3: ?????
4: Profit.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

1: Take 30 minutes to install ad's on website where download is located.
2: Watch said 2001 customers enter said site...
3: ?????
4: Profit.

Yes, because the huge profit from ads is more then the money from selling subscriptions.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Yes, because the huge profit from ads is more then the money from selling subscriptions.

I never said that. Of course every player paying a ridiculous amount to play Graal has a better profit than ads.

Is it hard to understand that w/ ads, even free players would generate a small amount of revenue Ziro?

[konidias]

Slapping ads on the website isn't exactly going to make the game seem more professional.

Also I think you fail to realize just how little money that would make. People only really download the game once... if you get 5000 people to download the game, that's all the ad views you're gonna get. 5000 views won't even buy you groceries.

But I digress... You're veering off into more silly suggestions that aren't going to be heard because you're not their marketing staff.

I really don't care if you want to suggest ideas and give feedback to the game... it's not really the point I'm trying to make. I'm merely saying that you shouldn't feel bad when they don't listen.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by thesmoothcriminal

I'm cool cause I quote things and call them crap

Maybe your lousy attitude and lack of maturity is the reason they totally ignore anything you have to say. Maybe if you didn't ignore what other people had to say, people might listen to you and care. But feel free to pretend like you didn't read this and quote me as saying "crap" again. You're making real progress.

[DarkReaper0]

Graal does not suck, it is making a good amount of revenue, a significantly noticeable amount of players have not left Graal due to its' lack of overall development. The trial system is not a steaming bowl of crap and has had grand support from everyone. The main criticisms we pull up time and time again are definitely answered actively by Graal Founders. And we definitely shouldn't talk because we're all stupid and can't possibly understand the godly workings Stefan and Unixmad have behind closed doors. If you're upset you should keep your findings to yourself and simply leave.

Sir, after careful consideration and removing the wordiness out of your essay, I found it lacking in logical support.



Please see me after class.

Edit: And no I haven't played Graal in well over 3 months because the population simply was not there.

[thesmoothcriminal]

Originally Posted by konidias

simmering crap on a low heat

I believe i said steaming crap not simply crap. Have you tried the support center yet?

[konidias]

Originally Posted by thesmoothcriminal

I believe i said steaming crap not simply crap. Have you tried the support center yet?

Why would I need the support center? I only have issues with people who are complaining that they aren't being heard. It's got nothing to do with Graal as a game or service.

[zim5354]

graal's problem is when someone sees a screen shot it doesn't seem worth paying for so potential customers move on. then when you limit the very few people that are willing to try the game they quickly get bored and leave. they then go buy a subscription to a 3d game or real MMO instead of graal. the price for the game could be lowered or perhaps trials could play for free but have ads in their client that appear at the bottom and top of their screen and periodically change, that would ensure views so you would make some money instead of none at all, other restrictions would exist also (perhaps a limit for trials on each server).

simply put graal in its current state isn't worth paying for in my opinion and if cyberjoueurs thinks so they are mistaken. graal simply cannot compete with the MMOs of today, it looks like cyberjoueurs is simply trying to suck every dollar they can out of people before the game dies.

[Darugo]

Originally Posted by thesmoothcriminal

I believe i said steaming crap not simply crap. Have you tried the support center yet?

Denying a man who preaches wisdom isn't the best idea.
Maybe one day you might be in his shoes.